Grimdark Fantasy discussion

Are there any limits to what's acceptable? Rape? Torture? Both at the same time?

Are there any topics that you think may just be too dark?

Let me be clear. I don't mean to imply the story revolves around these topics/events, just that the story may contain them.

Are there any 'events' that are just too horrific to put into a dark fantasy story?

IMHO, there will always be a reader willing to dig into a book, no matter how twisted and dark it turns out to be, it also depends on how into the story one is... I mean, it is easier to cope with torture or even rape if you haven't connected with the character. The more you care about them, the harder it gets.

Apart from that there should be a line between what is acceptable for the regular reader... Personally I find rape to be disgusting, but if you have something that you want to show and/or teach to your reader that is relevant to the story I won't oppose. What I find does not fit is random/pointless stuff...

Hardly any dark stuff I've read so far got to me in a "I have to stop reading" level.

Although I saw the point in it, the closer i got from having to stop reading a book was when (view spoiler)[Jorg was forced to break every leg of his dog, one at a time, just so Olidan could burn it alive after teaching him a lesson (hide spoiler)] on King of Thorns.

I think how dark depends on what the author's intention is. Are they just trying to shock? Are they sadists? Or are they actually doing something with the elements they introduce? Look at Martin. He's not afraid to kill off his main characters when they need to die. He'll maim children. But it doesn't feel gratuitous. I think you can go almost anywhere if there is a point and the point isn't simply an unhealthy prurient interest in the unspeakable.

My question comes from ideas I have regarding writing my own story one day. Most fantasy is set to be 'like' our own European Medieval times. These times are well known to have some very dark moments, with gratuitous events of rape, torture, little regard for life, etc.....

So it seems to me that a fantasy story would feel more realistic to have many of these elements added in. Not necessarily with 'purpose' other than setting the correct 'environment'. Life was considered cheap in that period and gruesome death was not uncommon.

Brittany wrote: "Interestingly enough I have recently read 2 blogs from 2 different offers about rape or what some readers perceived as rape in their book.
http://mark---lawrence.blogspot.com/2......"

Lawrence has a good point... it is hard to foresee the extent of one's writing. And the fact that he could reach those conclusions really says something about the man behind the books (and sets him apart from the Jorg). From his interviews and blog I've grown fond of him. Not only a great writer, he seem's a very decent human being.

Brittany wrote: "Brenno wrote: "Brittany wrote: "Interestingly enough I have recently read 2 blogs from 2 different offers about rape or what some readers perceived as rape in their book.
http://mark---lawrence.blo..."

Yeah, I'm frequently checking his blog for news (btw, really excited about Red Sister). Last week we became friends on facebook, some time later he was liking my pictures LoL

Chris wrote: "My question comes from ideas I have regarding writing my own story one day. Most fantasy is set to be 'like' our own European Medieval times. These times are well known to have some very dark momen..."

When writing, if the details are not as important as the fact that it occurs, then you might chose simply to mention it, rather than describe it. If the details are important to the story, include them.

Deborah wrote: "Chris wrote: "My question comes from ideas I have regarding writing my own story one day. Most fantasy is set to be 'like' our own European Medieval times. These times are well known to have some v..."I like that idea, in general, but I think that you need to 'experience' a little for it to really bring the environment alive.

I don't constant disgusting gruesome scenes like a slasher film, but an occasional descriptive scene to show just how dark this environment is. Like the occasional poor soul being boiled in oil, or drawn and quartered, etc....

Rape, is far more likely to trigger strong reactions that torture or gore. You may encounter readers who have been raped, but far fewer who have been boiled in oil.

Deborah wrote: "Chris wrote: "My question comes from ideas I have regarding writing my own story one day. Most fantasy is set to be 'like' our own European Medieval times. These times are well known to have some v..."

As Deborah said, if the purpose is indeed environmental, I guess that the simple mention will do the job... although sometimes you might want to go explicit for the fun of it.

I would say that after setting the base environment it will probably turn out to be a stylistic decision whether to reveal or unveil such darkness. Depending on the effect you seek an "off screen" activity could surpass the result of a explicit scene.

Deborah wrote: "Rape, is far more likely to trigger strong reactions that torture or gore. You may encounter readers who have been raped, but far fewer who have been boiled in oil."
True....it's a tough one because I think it was pretty common, but at the same time I really wouldn't want to dredge up painful memories for anyone who may have gone through that.

I dated a girl who had some sort of rape experience when she was young and even as an adult it still affected her very much.

I don't think there's anything wrong with including difficult scenes if they're needed. But when they're not needed they tend to read a bit cheap. (Maybe that's not the perfect word, but, you know.)

Deborah wrote: "I don't think there's anything wrong with including difficult scenes if they're needed. But when they're not needed they tend to read a bit cheap. (Maybe that's not the perfect word, but, you know.)"

Yeah, I get what you mean. I appreciate your perspective.

Brittany wrote: "Yes mentioning to set the tone of the scene is much different than a full on description unless it has somehow shaped a character in a profound way. I also think it's different if the character was..."

Also, if you must boil someone, you'd better do it right, otherwise it would just feel unremarkable and lose the whole point of the thing.

We could do a writing contest... I do not have the skills but it would be fun to try and describe the best death by boiling. LoL

Interesting topic. I know that when I was much younger (maybe 25 years ago) I read Lord Foul's Bane and the main character raped a girl. I was very offended and didn't read the rest of the series.

These days I read about Jorg and his mercenaries doing worse and don't blink an eye.

So what has changed since my college years? Am I desensitized to violence and cruelty? Or am I just able to read it with a more detached view?

I know I've gained an appreciation for darker and even damaged characters. I also know that everyone has a dark side and not acknowledging it is foolish.

Chompa wrote: "Interesting topic. I know that when I was much younger (maybe 25 years ago) I read Lord Foul's Bane and the main character raped a girl. I was very offended and didn't read the rest of the series. ..."
I had the exact same thing happen. I never finished the series because I hated that rape.

However, to be fair, I think it wasn't the rape itself that offended me so much as it was the fact that the raper was the "hero" and good guy of the story. It was only compounded by the fact that the mother of the 15 year old girl he raped had to help and be his guide.

I've often wondered if I went back and read Lord Foul's Bane now if I'd feel the same. I'm guessing not, but I'm not sure I'll ever pick it up again.

Chompa wrote: "These days I read about Jorg and his mercenaries doing worse and don't blink an eye. So what has changed since my college years? Am I desensitized to violence and cruelty? Or am I just able to read it with a more detached view? ..."

For better or worse, I would say that the way things are brought to us by media, both traditional and informal ones, has changed a lot our world perspective...

I can't talk about 25 years ago, since I wasn't even born by then, but in 10 years time I can say for a fact that a lot has changed.

It is ever more common to see reports of unimaginably graphic brutal crimes, on the morning news, rather than late hours. Children get a lot of exposure to these contents and not even caring parents can keep them at safe distance... (and here I do not mean overprotectiveness, just a fare share)

Although I do find that we should be a part of it and debate on those topics, it is the fashion in which they are presented that gets to me as wrong and sometimes even inhuman. One minute you are seeing body parts and blood everywhere, next thing you know the anchor puts up his best smile to talk about a Teddy Bear sale on Amazon.

If you take a closer look into the movie, series and of course book productions, what once was considered highly inappropriate, is now seen as ordinary... But then again, I’m not saying that this is all in all negative.

When those scenes seem to exist more to titillate the writer than move the story they will never be successful.

Brittany wrote: "Chompa wrote: "I've often wondered if I went back and read Lord Foul's Bane now if I'd feel the same. I'm guessing not, but I'm not sure I'll ever pick it up again."

I've never heard of this serie..."
It was a popular series in the 80s. I think I first heard of it when a friend was reading it in junior high (early 80s). I read the first book in the late 80s or early 90s. It wasn't just that rape that did it for me, I really didn't like the writing style either.

Well, as I can't pass on a book with such controverted opinions I just got it on my "long term TBR". Someday I'll give it try...

Brenno wrote: "Well, as I can't pass on a book with such controverted opinions I just got it on my "long term TBR". Someday I'll give it try..."

Nothing wrong with that. I love reading books that inspire controversy too. If I haven't experienced it, then I feel I "need" to just to see what the "hubub" is about.

I honestly don't think you can go too far as long as it's written well and relevant to the story. To be honest it usually adds to the enjoyment rather than detracting from it. Even if it's an uncomfortable subject the fact you feel uncomfortable means you feel something and adds to the escapism of reading. There's nothing worse for me than reading a book and feeling no connection

The only problem I have is when an author has clearly decide to cause controversy as a cheap way of getting noticed; just like a cheap horror movie.

The only subject I'm not comfortable with is anything involving animal harm, yet I read The Wasp Factory and loved it because it was written well and everything was relevant to the story.

I also read Poppy Z Brite's Exquisite Corpse which had by far the sickest scenes I've read involving murder/cannibalism/necrophilia scenes in any book I've read and I really enjoyed it, although even I felt very uncomfortable whilst reading it.

I know these aren't fantasy or GrimDark but still relevant to the topic.

Now I wonder what happened.

I fear being politically incorrect and/or insensitive, but after watching the episode, I found it not that shocking or abhorrent. Yes, it was wrong and Ramsey is a bastard (literal and figurative), but I do not see why all uproar.

Perhaps this is me being desensitized? Or maybe I've watched and read MUCH worse.

Haven't seen it yet, probably tonight. But still cant make sense of all that fuss over it.

I've never read something so dark I've had to put the book down. I'm pretty desensitized to blood and rape due to sucky parents. I picked up Prince of Thorns today and I absolutely love it, I think there's stuff wrong with me.

I've seen stuff on TV, like American Horror Story second season that was disgusting enough that I had to quit, but its more like because it was disgusting, not because it was dark or scary.

Chiming in late to the discussion. I also read Lord Fouls Bane when I was a teen. It was my first experience where the hero was that flawed to do something as bad as commit rape. I did keep going and read the first 6 books in the series. Though book 2 actually made me throw the book against the wall.

I have a different view of the last GOT episode. I didn't read the books but have been told how much more graphic and violent they are compared to the show. The rape scene by itself was not that bad. Definitely not enough to quit the show. My issue is why do it? They already have changed things from the books and said they are changing even more to come. To still do that scene for me was just because they could, not because it was necessary to the story. We already know how bad Ramsey is and how broken Theon is.

This is where I draw the line. Whether it is a tv show, movie, or book if you just start throwing in scenes like that again and again because you can it ruins it for me. American Horror Story is like that which is why I stopped watching early in season 2.

The scene and the earlier one where Sansa confronted Ramsey's old girlfriend during the bath make me wonder. Maybe this is part of Sansa's turning into a true Stark. Trial by fire, etc. Her response from the bath was awesome and showed a backbone I'd not seen before.

So - if Ramsey's crude actions drive her character to become someone strong - ok. If it was just to be rapey for publicity - not ok.

Please note: the following comment is only applicable to fictional people.

Sansa has been a vapid piece of crap for several hundreds of thousand of pages. Sometimes a tragic, vapid piece of crap, granted. If it takes a rape to make her a more interesting character, then yay!

Lets wait and see, I would really like for her to "grow some balls", stop being so weak and take up as the "Last" Stark.

Still, I suspect Theon's evolvement (and reaction) might be leading to his comeback.

I think it is great that we are all of like mind on the Sansa scene. I was worried posting my comment, but I'm obviously in good company.

definitely rape or any kind sexual violence to any living being, male, female, animals, whatever.

Three occassions I found things that are too much for me (wont mention the books): forced bestiality, child rape and a former rape victim getting raped again with a very unsatisfying aftermath/consequence (the culprit basically got away with it). I. Was. Furious. The first two, luckily, did not affect the plot at all since they are all mentioned in passing. However, the third one infuriated and traumatized me so much since it was described in details and affected the plots and characters' journeys.

Other than those, all the gore I've read so far are okay. Bring it on!

Brenno wrote: "Although I saw the point in it, the closer i got from having to stop reading a book was when (view spoiler)[ Jorg was forced to break every leg of his dog, one at a time, just so Olidan could burn it alive after teaching him a lesson (view spoiler)[ on King of Thorns. ." (hide spoiler)] (hide spoiler)]

Oh gods! I'm adding that to my list.

In Forge of Darkness(Eriksons latest series) there's a rape scene described from perpetrators perspective. That's probably the limit for me. I've read other books with plenty of rape and violence but none of them affected me as much as this.

No act is too much. Rape and torture must both be discussed. It is HOW they are discussed that decides their darkness.
I read a romance novel called Tell Me When which was basically a story about a woman getting over having been kidnapped, raped and tortured. Since it was a romance novel it ended happily and was a bit, well ... ROMANCE'Y it didn't get very dark, but it had some grim moments.
So you can discuss a "dark deed" without the story ever getting really dark.
Meanwhile you can have something not very controversial become absolutely horrifying. Watching Mad Men's Don Draper deal with his psychological issues has been one of the greatest and most terrifying thrills I've watched/read yet. That show got dark, yo.

The point is - it all comes down to how the topic is handled. That's what makes it dark.
IMO all topics can and should be handled, but always respectfully. The author must be aware of the message they're sending and whether their characters' reactions are real enough.

For me, with game of thrones for instance, things didn't get too dark I just stopped caring. I don't know if that's a symptom of the same. At the end I just stopped caring about the characters because I knew they'd be snatched away from me.

Brittany wrote: "I don't even know how to address this without sounding insensitive. I mean yes it wasn't pleasant for her and she didn't know Ramsey was a psychopath but she knew what was going to happen on the we..."

I agree with this. I don't think the fault in that scene lies with the character of Sansa but with the writers, who have no respect for Sansa. At this point Sansa ought to (as is happening in the books) have tried to wrap Ramsay around her littlefinger (lol, pun). And she could have done it. He was infatuated with her.
Sigh. Such poor writing on that side of things.

Brittany wrote: "I don't even know how to address this without sounding insensitive. I mean yes it wasn't pleasant for her and she didn't know Ramsey was a psychopath but she knew what was going to happen on the we..."

Talking about the show, yes? It was Jeyne Pool who gets married to Bolton in the books. Same scenes essentially, but Sansa was nowhere near Winterfell at that time. Unless I'm very much mistaken.

The book The End of Alive was just too much for me....In depth child abuse is just too tough for this mom of 4 young kids.

*supposed to be The End of Alice