Classics Without All the Class discussion

May 2015 book discussion --> Till We Have Faces

Chapter 3 - Opens with Orual's words, "Then the gods left me for some days to chew the strange bread they had given me. I was Ungit. What did it mean?" What did you learn from Orual's narrative regarding this struggle?

Then Orual dreams again, wandering in unfamiliar places. She is taken before a judge and made to read her "complaint against the gods," over and over again. At the end the judge asks "Are you answered?", and Orual replies "Yes."

This is a strange chapter with tons of symbolism. And, it is somewhat overwhelming, but the good news is there is much here to talk about. What meaning do you perceive in her very detailed dream (or vision)? What do you think about the events and the symbolism in this second dream?

Chapter 4 - The final chapter in our book. Opens with this statement: "The complaint was the answer. To have heard myself making it was to be answered." What do you make of this?

Following this was the statement, "How can they meet us face to face till we have faces?" There must be some deep meaning in these words since they contain the title of the book.

The vision before the judge continues and Orual sees the Fox again. The Fox takes her to the "true judge" because "the gods have been accused by you. Now's their turn." The Fox tells Orual, "whatever else you get, you will not get justice." Orual asks, "Are the gods not just?" and the Fox answers, "Oh no, child. What would become of us if they were?"

Orual sees a woman in a picture who is at the edge of a river, tying her ankles together. It was Psyche. Then came several more pictures of Psyche which came alive. In regard to Psyche, Orual observed "She was almost happy," and the Fox answered, "Another bore nearly all the anguish." Their conclusion was that Orual was the one who had borne the anguish. The Fox asks, "Would you rather have had justice?"

Then they saw a final picture of Psyche who was required to walk down to the deadlands to get beauty in a casket from death herself, and bring it back to Ungit, all without speaking to anyone. Both the Fox and Orual were in the picture attempting to trick Psyche into speaking.

Orual asks the Fox, "Did we really do these things to her?" The Fox answered yes and Orual responds, "And we said we loved her." The Fox's reply: "And we did. She had no more dangerous enemies than us."

Then the vision showed the goddess Psyche coming back from the land of the dead with the casket of beauty. Orual fell on her face in front of Psyche and kissed her feet. Orual says, "I never wished you well, never had one selfless thought of you. I was a craver." Orual was "wet with a kind of tears that do not flow in this country." Did Orual truly understand this or was she just reacting to the moment?

Orual now realizes that "all this had been only a preparation. Some far greater matter was upon us." The voices then spoke: "He is coming. The god is coming into his house. The god comes to judge Orual."

The god's voice said to Orual, "You also are Psyche." At this point the vision ended and Orual woke up. She wrote that she ended her first book with the words "no answer." Then she writes, "I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer. You are yourself the answer." Then Orual dies.

How do you feel about this ending? Was it satisfying or did it leave you hanging?

The author gives us a closing note explaining how his story relates to the story of Cupid and Psyche.

Please give us an overall summary of what you think about this story. There is tons of symbolism here and it certainly has the feel of Greek mythology. What did you glean from all of this?

I don't have any bright answers to your questions, Jim. I just wanted to say how much I appreciated your informative and enthusiastic leadership of our read. I enjoyed this book, despite initially feeling trepidatious about the choice.

Thank you! I have really enjoyed my time spent on this and, because of the extra work, I gained much more from the book than I would have from a quick, casual read.

I finished the book a couple of weeks ago, and had hoped that by now I would have a clearer understanding of the whole novel, especially the ending. This may be my wishful thinking, but I really did believe Orual's penitence as honest and true. She approached the scene with Psyche and The Fox with an open heart and mind, and was able to see herself and the "love" she bore for Psyche as selfish.

Overall, I enjoyed the book. While I was reading, I did note to myself all the examples of symbolism. However, I chose not to spend my time on that and instead wanted to enjoy the novel and take it in its entirety. I have found that I have an easier time getting the story first and then making a deeper analysis on a second reading.

Thanks, Jim, for all the insightful analysis and questions!

I think your conclusions are excellent! Thanks for participating in the discussion. I appreciate all your thoughtful comments.

I don't have answers or insightful commentary, but I do have a favorite quote: "I know now, Lord, why you utter no answer. You are yourself the answer. Before your face questions die away. What other answer would suffice?"

I agree, that is an excellent quote. Thanks for sharing!

I read the book and kept up on all the discussion threads, but unfortunately, real life always gets in the way of that which I would rather do so I don't have the kind of time I need to consider your discussion questions in depth - maybe someday I can return to the book, this discussion, and some in depth critical analysis - there is so much more I would like to get out of this book. I did want to thank you for going above and beyond as a discussion leader - your comments and questions gave me much food for thought.

Thank you for the closing comments. I agree that there never is enough time to do all the things we would like. I thoroughly enjoyed my part in this discussion. Thank you for your participation.

Enjoyed the book, along with the discussion threads. It has been literally decades ago that I studied Greek mythology. Some of it actually came back as I read! You have been a great moderator.

Thank you very much!