The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of November 16th through November 22nd, we are reading approximately the next 51 pages of No Ordinary Time by Doris Kearns Goodwin.

The fifth week's assignment is:

November 16 - November 22 ~~ Chapter 6 – 7 (137 - 189 )
Chapter Six – “I Am a Juggler” – page 137
Chapter Seven – “I Can’t Do Anything About Her” – page 161

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This thread should only deal with this chapter and these pages. No spoilers, please.

Discussion on these sections will begin on November 16th.

Welcome,

Bentley

TO SEE ALL PREVIOUS WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL








Doris Kearns Goodwin

I really enjoyed Chapter 6. It was all FDR, and at his best. To watch him juggle so many things all at once, and to have them all come out the way he wanted just exemplifies the level of respect and power he wielded. I don't recall anyone since FDR who was able to throw that much weight around and have it all fall right into place just as he planned.

I'm not saying that it's a good thing to concentrate that much power in one person, but in this circumstance, we really needed that kind of leadership. Sometimes it's necessary to have someone just take command, and I think this was that time. He proved himself during his 2 previous terms that he was a successful leader who got the job done.

And the Republicans nominating a virtual political unknown to run against him? What were they thinking?

I haven't finished the section yet, but I find myself feeling rather sorry for and admiring toward Wendell Wilkie. When he came out in support of the draft it may have been a "fatal error" but he was stating what he thought was best for the country, the opposite of what one sometimes sees, politicians who will say what they know is wrong because they think it is politically popular or expedient.

Also surprised to see how long Claude Pepper had been around. I remember when he was in the House in the 1980's!

Good post Liz..

I liked the prayer she printed in her January 1, 1940 column:

"Let the forces of light bring illumination to mankind.
"Let the spirit of peace be abroad.
"May men of good-will everywhere;
"Join in the spirit of cooperation.
"Let the spirit of forgiveness be invoked by men
"Everywhere, one towards the other.
"Let power attend the efforts of
"The great servers of humanity."

The words are as true today as they were in 1940.

Very true..and I wish it would come true as well.

I am amazed overall at how political Eleanor's columns were. The fact that she wrote these columns without White House "vetting" seems radical even today. The idea that a first lady could have different political opinions than her spouse still seems so,well, not politically feasible.

And why should it be considered so abnormal..to me it was more real..everything nowadays is so plastic and so prefabricated. That must have been a breath of fresh air...no wonder folks were different then.

So many married couples have different politics...that seems so much more real. I really liked reading her columns Thank you Liz for posting them.

Oh, absolutely, Bentley. Why does someone give up their right to political opinions just because they are married? But many of our first ladies have followed that unwritten "rule."

And shame on them and their advisors. I have to say that there has been backlash on some of them for having a brain, etc. And that is a shame on the public.

Being married already means that you are going to disagree on something. Doesn't that happen immediately after you say I do. (smile)

I think overall that Eleanor was extremely tactful. She was quite good for FDR in many ways.

It just makes me so sad to read about the racism in America. IMO, so much seems to be gaining confidence again today that I never thought I would see. Eleanor was so committed to her belief that the rights of minorities mattered even in times of other crises. One of her admirable qualities was to see how important it was to preserve American values of tolerance, even in the face of other problems.

Liz wrote: "Andrea wrote: "It just makes me so sad to read about the racism in America. IMO, so much seems to be gaining confidence again today that I never thought I would see. Eleanor was so committed to h..."

Liz...there is the glossary which is not non spoiler and you can post whatever you would like there.

Finally caught up last night, just in time to be behind again today! Here are some thoughts on these chapters:

I am fascinated by all the work that went into helping Britain. In other books written about this time, they mostly say things like, "FDR send XX amount of stuff to Churchill." For the first time, I'm understanding some of the opposition to helping Britain, the fear that it left the US helpless just when we were trying to arm, the legal tricks used to make things happen.

Similarly, I'm enjoying reading about what went into getting the factories going to build arms. In the broader history books, it is always summarized as, "and then America put its mighty abilities to work."

I agree with Andrea about Wilkie. On the political scene, it takes courage to say what is right, even if you are agreeing with your opponent. He probably would have made a good president, if the country could have handled the change of drivers at such a tricky time.

On page 151, there is a brief reference to the (first?) bombing of Berlin, "which, unbeknownst to the Germans, has resulted from a minor navigational error." Now that sounds like a story interesting to hear. Anyone know much about it, or about a book that gives a little more detail?

Chapter 7 indeed has much about the racism, both against the Negros (to use the terminology of the book and the time) and the Jews escaping Europe. Like Andrea, it really saddens me. Sometimes I think we forget, because of the problems that are still there, how far we have come.

I appreciate Goodwin's ability to paint Eleanor's actions in light of the day and time. For example, on page 163 Eleanor puts her chair between the two sections of the segregated auditorium. In those days, most people didn't even think anything of segregation, so putting her chair between the sections gave the right statement, that we are all the same. Today, to make the same statement, I think she would have just gone and sat with her friends.

It is hard to read about how difficult it was to change public opinion. Having pictures taken with people of all races, getting people used to each other, was so important. There is much in here about the birth of the Civil Rights movement. It takes so much time for things to change. I wonder how much longer it might have taken without the war to spark some of this. Or without Eleanor to push it.

It is what it is Liz..and I think at that time maybe folks were sticking their heads in the sand. Maybe they thought that since the country had been in depression for over eleven years that it could not support additional population. It is so hard to tell in retrospect..very sad now knowing the outcome of what happened to an entire group of people.

I can also understand your being upset.

Source Wikipedia:

Breckinridge Long:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Breckinr...

If it is any consolation and it certainly may not be...Eleanor had a very tense relationship with Long over his positions. See Glossary.

Just a post script...why was Franklin not similarly moved? He was President; was it his inability to fire anybody; did he not share Eleanor's views or were his somewhat different because he had other concerns to solve at the same time.

We do not want to let Long off the hook but I think that FDR is culpable in this situation too since he was President. Was he receiving bad information from Long?

Bentley wrote: "...We do not want to let Long off the hook but I think that FDR is culpable in this situation too since he was President. Was he receiving bad information from Long?..."

According to Goodwin, FDR was getting some misinformation, or slanted information from Long. See page 173. It says FDR and Long were meeting to discuss Eleanor's concerns about people dying because they couldn't get transit visas. Goodwin says, "Long was well armed, carrying fearsome stories purporting to prove that many of the refugees Eleanor and her friends wanted to bring into the country were not refugees at all, but German agents trying to use America's hospitality for their own dark purposes. By playing on the president's fears that spies had infiltrated the refugee stream, Long managed to persuade Roosevelt that the State Department's cautious policy was the only way to go."

According to this, Long got to FDR's weakness: fear of spies. I'd guess that Long didn't spend any time admitting how obstructive the State Department's policies were. It sounds like Long presented it as a "cautious" policy, when "stonewalled" might be more appropriate. I don't think FDR's decision was right, especially in light of history, but I can understand weighing what a spy might do that might affect millions of Americans against the fate of a few thousand people represented as questionable.

By the way, Liz. Thanks for that election results information. Pull it out again when we get to the 1944 election! Amazing how what was considered a "close" race back then would be a landslide to us. History changes...

Elizabeth S wrote: "Bentley wrote: "...We do not want to let Long off the hook but I think that FDR is culpable in this situation too since he was President. Was he receiving bad information from Long?..."

According ..."

Yes Elizabeth... Long was very protective of his policies; who knows maybe there were spies; but Long certainly exaggerated the fears.

Maybe Roosevelt honestly felt that immigration would weigh the already destitute and stretched population down further and he needed the population that he had to be ready for war.

It is hard to fathom. it is a shame that a ship load of refugees were turned back.

Sometimes leaders delude themselves into thinking that something is not happening; maybe FDR just did not want to believe those stories he most certainly was told and we know that Churchill was aware early on; and certainly had to have told FDR his fears and beliefs.

I think FDR (although brilliant in his thinking and a savior to England with the munitions and airplanes he gave them) did make the wrong decision here and he is culpable; he certainly was told by others including his own wife.

Here is an analogy which I think fits. Sometimes when a divorce is imminent you always hear either the wife or the husband always wanting to blame the significant other of the soon to be ex wife or husband who has fallen in with this someone else. These folks always want to believe that their spouse was led astray; what always amazes me is that it is truly the straying husband or wife's fault primarily; but they still are in love with their spouses so they want to blame somebody else. I see the same situation here; nobody wants to blame FDR (they loved him) and everybody wants to blame Long (they wanted to hate him). Every president usually has something to mar the perfection of their tenancy in the White House; Jackson had the Native Americans, LBJ had Vietnam, Kennedy had the Cuban crisis, Adams had the Aliens and Sedition Acts and unfortunately FDR had the immigration issue.

FDR was warned by Eleanor; she spoke to Sumner Wells about it because her relationship with Long over this very issue was tense and obviously she spoke to FDR himself with no good results. Sumner and Eleanor had a close relationship although Welles had some issues himself which ended his government career.

What did Sumner Wells do? Here is an excerpt from Wikipedia:

In the week following the Kristallnacht in November 1938 the British government stated that it would be willing to give up the major part of the quota of 65,000 British citizens that could emigrate to the United States and have Jews fleeing Hitler receive this instead. To this under-secretary Welles responded: "I reminded the Ambassador that the President stated there was no intention on the part of his government to increase the quota for German nationals. I added that it was my strong impression that the responsible leaders among American Jews would be the first to urge that no change in the present quota for German Jews be made...The influential Sam Rosenman, one of the "responsible" Jewish leaders sent Roosevelt a memorandum telling him that an 'increase of quotas is wholly inadvisable. It will merely produce a 'Jewish problem' in the countries increasing the quota.'"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sumner_W...

Pretty sad...there was enough fault to go around. Long, Welles, Rosenman, and FDR.

One other thing which was insinuated by DKG which is somewhat unattractive about the Roosevelts and Americans in general at the time is that there was a certain "xenophobic and anti-Semitic" mood in the country in the late 1930s and early 1940s.

The quote that I find revealing (among many others) is on page 102 of the book:

An excerpt:

"But it was one thing to sympathize with the plight of the Jewish refugees and quite another to pit his presidency against the xenophobic, anti-Semitic mood of this country in the late 1930s and early 1940s. This Roosevelt was unwilling to do. Roper polls confirmed that, though people disapproved of Hitler's treatment of Jews in Germany, the majority of Americans were manifestly unwilling to assist the Jews in practical ways, especially if it meant allowing more Jewish immigration into the U.S. DKG goes on and says some more unflattering things about the entire situation at that time.

But as the saying goes by Walt Kelly: "We have met the enemy - and he is us".

I think it is easier to blame Long or Welles or others now for what transpired and in many cases they seemed to be overzealous and in some instances Long did mislead. But Roosevelt knew and he did make decisions that overturned and went against public and Congressional opinion like sending arms to Britain before; but he decided not to do anything this time. And it appears from DKG's book that the American people were not keen on it either.

I am glad that I was not around then at all or even close; but it really is an example of a collective guilt and it is a shame - no doubt about it.

Liz wrote: "Bentley wrote: "One other thing which was insinuated by DKG which is somewhat unattractive about the Roosevelts and Americans in general at the time is that there was a certain "xenophobic and anti..."

That could be Liz; it seemed to be a horrible time to live.

You are welcome..I had to go back and reread because I felt that there were some other quotes that painted another part of the picture.

Liz wrote: "...One would like to see our leaders stand against such prejudice but, had FDR made a strong stand, it is quite possible that he would not have been elected in 1940. I'm not certain why he didn't make a strong stand after the election. The adulation of the public (and his inner circle, for that matter) was very important to FDR. Perhaps that was the reason...."

I think we also need to remember that FDR spent a lot of time and energy fighting the war, even before the USA was official at war. I think he intentionally sacrificed some moral issues because he felt they could "wait," while the war couldn't. If Hitler had conquered the world, it would not have mattered how many refugees were let into America. While is part of why Eleanor made a good team partner for FDR, she made sure he didn't completely forget other issues while in pursuit solutions to the biggest crisis.

Bentley wrote: "...nobody wants to blame FDR (they loved him) and everybody wants to blame Long (they wanted to hate him). Every president usually has something to mar the perfection of their tenancy in the White House;..."

I think part of what makes it hard to admit mistakes in our heros is that we are an all-or-nothing society. Either someone is perfect, or someone is terrible. Look at how the media kills people for simple mistakes, such as misspelling "potato." Any crack in the facade spells an exploitable weakness that someone will exploit. We need to be able to say that our presidents are great presidents, despite their weaknesses and errors. FDR was amazing, in many ways he saved this country. There are some things I wish he had done better. He allowed some horrible things to happen, but that does not make him equal with Hitler. We need to be able to say our heroes did these things well, did these things badly, and overall were great men & women.

I agree, Bentley. Because I mainly teach 18-19 year olds, one of the things I am always trying to suggest to them is that not everything is black/white, that is, good or bad. It's easier to pick a few qualities from which to judge a person or situation that seem coherent. But as we mature (thank goodness) we are able to see shades of gray more and grant that our heroes have flaws and our "villains" sometimes have good qualities(not talking about Hitler here, though). Maybe our media appeals to the least mature parts of our brains?

Very good points Elizabeth, Liz and Andrea.

I think every hero has gray areas and every human has flaws...you are so right Andrea; but there are some who cannot take hearing any bad news about their hero; they want no questioning of their hero status. You cannot have an interesting debate about any icon; if things are always seen as either black or white or good or bad. For instance, there are quite a few things that I would have preferred that FDR do differently; but overall I believe he was probably our greatest president and we have a lot more data to go on since he was president for so long.

Hi Folks

Well here I am again a week late or later anyway.

I have read your comments too.

I was surprised to see what a positive fellow Wilkie seemed to be - an outsider who won the nomination - who did not have to oppose everything that FDR aid or did especailly if he thought it was right - what a refeshing man.

I also think thatt he commnets that he had little chance was a"long shot" was wrong - he was popular - there was sentiment against the war and against some of the programs and there was not heir apparent to FDR and no certainty he would run for a third term which in itself was unprecedented.

I thought that Eleanor is the very strong person here - defending the blacks - not being insulated as FDR was with a large loving entourage. She was pressing into new areas that whites in power had not gone to before.

I found that of the children - although not so much is said of John - he was the onlyone who did not use the family name (up to this chapter anyway) to promote himself. The shadow of Sara - a reflection of neither Eleanor's nor FDR's courage and strenght to stand up to her and her power by wealth.

I also felt that the political courage of the draft numbers being drawn at the end of October was a real plus for FDR.

Also just a little comment on FDR's lack of standing up for Blacks or Jews - he had the politcal reality of needing a consensus to run the country - he needed to carry the Christian votes and that meant too the Southern votes and open support of Blacks would not have helped (John Kennedy - never getting past thinking about his need for southern votes for re-election if he had lived to run left the work of the Great Society for Johnson - he only approched what he had to - led by his brother the Attorney General) - and, having grownup the child of a Jew and a Catholic but with an Italian name I know that anti-semitism is not yet dead in America and I have to imagine it was much stronger in 1940 than now.

I will try to catch up so I can particiapte in the ongoing conversations.

Vince, I agree totally with your views on anti semitism and it is a shame that bias is still with us. LBJ had his hands full with the passing of Kennedy in may respects.
I really never heard that much about FDRs children and you are right Eleanor blossomed tremendously when FDR became president. It was almost a new lease on life for her.

I do not know a lot about Wilkie so you could be right.

There is no rush in catching up...the slow and steady person wins the race.

All great and very thoughtful comments.

Bentley wrote: "Vince, I agree totally with your views on anti semitism and it is a shame that bias is still with us. LBJ had his hands full with the passing of Kennedy in may respects.
I really never heard that m..."

Being a chubby guy who used to run (jog) I dont have to win just to finish - but thanks

Well chubby guys are welcome too and you can finish whenever you like (smile)

Sorry if this has been mentioned before, I am trying to play catch up.

For those not from NYC, they may not know that Henry Morgenthau Jr. who was the Treasury Secretary for FDR, and is mentioned a few times in No Ordinary Time, his son was the NYC Manhattan District Attorney since 1975. He just retired at 89 a few months ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_M... His wiki link.

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Andrea post #4
I haven't finished the section yet, but I find myself feeling rather sorry for and admiring toward Wendell Wilkie. When he came out in support of the draft it may have been a "fatal error" but he was stating what he thought was best for the country, the opposite of what one sometimes sees, politicians who will say what they know is wrong because they think it is politically popular or expedient.
-----------------

I so agree with you, Andrea. How refreshing to see a politician do what they know is best for the country even if it hurts them politically. We see this quality in FDR. He didn't know how the Lend/Lease program would turn out to be popular. He did it because it was the right thing to do. To date, I have read nothing on Wilkie and see now that is a mistake. I think I may have to add a small bio of him to my TBR.

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Elizabeth Post # 21
I am fascinated by all the work that went into helping Britain. In other books written about this time, they mostly say things like, "FDR send XX amount of stuff to Churchill." For the first time, I'm understanding some of the opposition to helping Britain, the fear that it left the US helpless just when we were trying to arm, the legal tricks used to make things happen.
----------------
Yes, this book clearly puts the Lend/Lease program into clear focus. Its importance and what the opposition to it was.
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Elizabeth Post # 35
think part of what makes it hard to admit mistakes in our heros is that we are an all-or-nothing society. Either someone is perfect, or someone is terrible. Look at how the media kills people for simple mistakes, such as misspelling "potato." Any crack in the facade spells an exploitable weakness that someone will exploit. We need to be able to say that our presidents are great presidents, despite their weaknesses and errors. FDR was amazing, in many ways he saved this country.
----------------

You put that so well, Elizabeth ! I wish more people today felt this way.

One thing that really stood out for me in chapter 6 was the character of the British people during the raids on London. As Churchill noted it was indeed "their finest hour" p152.

P148. For some reason I was really proud to read that we not only sent the much needed destroyers to England but that we stocked them with food. It's the first time I read this. It's too bad the name of the person who thought of this, his/her name seems to be lost to history.

I am enjoying reading everyone's insightful posts. It has added so much to my understanding. Thanks!

Onward to chapter 7 ! :)

What insightful comments alias...I really appreciate your hard work.

Great comments and I think you are doing extremely well in getting caught up.

Keep going...we love your comments.

Bentley

Thank you for the kind words, Bentley.

Unless my memory fails me, ( I tried to find a Google reference but failed) even though FDR was born in Hyde Park and lived there his whole life, he never carried his home town of Hyde Park in the elections. I think I read this and was also told this on the tour of the mansion in Hyde Park. I am surprised Goodwin doesn't mention this.

She wrote page 189

At midnight, a smiling president emerged to greet a jubilant crowd of local Democrats parading across the lawn with torchlight. It looks all right, the president told this cheering neighbors. ...

One small side bar that I am sure you already know.

A few times -Page 18, 71,190 & 200 - the historian and author Gunther is mentioned. I am pretty sure this is a reference to the author John Gunther. He is the author of the huge best seller Death Be Not Proud. Copyright 1949. His named popped out at me because I read the book last year.

Death Be Not Proud -John Gunther -


There seem to be so many family connections to our current times. Besides Morgenthou, whom I mentioned in my prior post, there is Harold Ickes.

Harold LeClair Ickes (March 15, 1874 – February 3, 1952) was a United States administrator and politician. He served as Secretary of the Interior for 13 years, from 1933 to 1946, the longest tenure of anyone to hold the office. Ickes was responsible for implementing much of President Franklin D. Roosevelt's "New Deal" and is the father of Harold M. Ickes

Harold McEwen Ickes (pronounced Ick-ees) (born September 4, 1939) was White House Deputy Chief of Staff for President Bill Clinton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harold_M...

Alias, way to go catching up. Sometimes it seems like a daunting task. But worth it.

Thanks for all the interesting connections to today. I was interested to see that the Ickes family continued their involvement with presidents. Thanks also for connecting with other books. That is part of the value of goodreads. If an author references another book, there is a good chance that someone in our goodreads community has read it and can tell us about it. Yea goodreads!

In message #42, I agree that stocking the destroyers with food was a nice touch. So often these little things go unnoticed because there is so much to tell and not enough room for all the details. I guess that is part of why we read multiple books on the same subject--hopefully each book picks a different set of details that help us piece together all the history.