Jane Austen discussion

*******Spoiler Alert**********

What am I deciding about Emma? After reading and thinking last night: that she is one savvy girl, but she gets awfully stuck on her own opinions sometimes.

I was looking at the scene where Elton proposes his feelings for her, rather than for Harriet, in chapter 15. She is at first appalled that Elton is bypassing Harriet -- how could all the clues have been false? Of course, she sees only what she believes should happen -- that they would match up. But it is made clear by Elton this is not going to happen -- "I never thought of Miss Smith in the whole course of my existence!" (Very gentlemanly reply there, Elton!)

Then immediately in chapter 16, without missing a beat, Emma sums up Elton as a social climber, who never even had true feelings for her anyway. She knows exactly what he is after -- improving his connections and gaining 30,000 pounds. Now where did this young, motherless, village-residing girl come to have such a cutting knowledge of the ways of men and society? I am impressed by her tart view of the situation and of her predictions of Elton, as we shall soon see.

****Spoiler Alert****

In some ways I think you see a little bit of Austen in Emma...if you read all her works, you see a little bit of Austen in certain characters. Yes, Emma loves to be the matchmaker and wants people to be happy. But, when one gets rejected then the true character comes forth. Most can hide it, but Emma seems to be more preceptive than the average female. She's a people person. She watches their actions/words carefully. Mr. Elton's actions didn't speak well of his Character. In the end money and position in society does a play a role in whom he chooses to marry. But, it also bites him in the butt with his choice. Ironic that the thing he desired the most was ultimately what would make him an outcast to certain members of society. It's out of obligation that he tends to get invited to social events and not because he's wanted there.
But, too bad when it comes to her and Frank, she wasn't watching close enough the actions of him. :D That to me shows that she can be just like every other female that gets infatuated with a handsome, charming guy who has another agenda that you don't see coming till later. But at the same time, it's infatuation. Once he leaves, he's like a fleeting thought. Because we all know that Mr. Knightley is the one meant for her.
Funny how the reader can see it even before the main character can. I love that about Austen. She slowly hints at relationships and builds them to a certain climax. The tension that she puts between her characters amazes me! It's hard to find that with authors nowadays.

Jennifer wrote: "****Spoiler Alert****

Emma seems to be more perceptive than the average female. She's a people person. She watches their actions/words carefully. "

But look how wrong she gets Mr. Elton's attentions. And how long it takes her to figure out Mr. Knightley's true intention!

Perceptive about others, yes. But maybe not so much about herself.

I think Emma "thinks" she is a great reader of people, but she is only 19, living in rather restricted society. I just think that no one, except Knightley, has ever contradicted her. Because of that, she is able to take so many wrong turns in the story without realizing that the fault lies with her way of thinking and acting. It's fun to watch how she grows up.

Maybe she has set herself above the scene as the matchmaker. She is still young and not seriously looking at the attentions of men to her. She is so focused on being a mediator for everyone else. Like I said earlier, she gets very stuck on what she wants to see. And I think Frank Churchill she was fascinated with (with all his interesting backstory), but not too attached to.

Frank Churchill was her first serious flirtation, but she took it as such and wasn't too concerned with how it turned out. She might have been more upset if she was seriously looking for romance.

Jeannette wrote: "Frank Churchill was her first serious flirtation, but she took it as such and wasn't too concerned with how it turned out. She might have been more upset if she was seriously looking for romance."

Hmmm. I think she was more serious about him than you suggest.

Well, I'm jumping in from memory, so I'll have to see if I change my mind when I get further into the book. :)

The Evolution of Emma and Frank-- walk with us to the next topic thread --

I am only at the beginning! I better hurry up!

i think she was more serious about frank than she let on..

In the opening chapter, Austen sums up Emma very well. "...she had lived nearly twenty-one years in the world with very little to distress or vex her." She had no mother, an indulgent father and Miss Taylor, but she was "...highly esteeming Miss Taylor's judgment, bit directed chiefly by her own." She had "too much her own way" and "a disposition to think a little too well of herself." Since she didn't have any influences that were not inclined to indulge her, save for Mr. Knightley, she wasn't accustomed to opposition, to taking an objective view of a situation.
Dramatic events seem to jar her into objectivity - after Elton's proposal, she concedes that "she had take up the idea (of Elton marrying Harriet), she supposed and made everything bend to it."
She was seeing everything by way of her own flawed and objective POV.

That's good that you brought out the introductory description of Emma, J. (Although, at the end of your comment, did you mean "objective"?) Emma - twenty years old, very well off, the most consequential family in the neighborhood. Miss Taylor had been a guiding person in her manners and propriety, but Mr. Woodhouse had been indulgent in letting her have her own way largely.

So do we look at her in those terms? Considering what we know about her, she acts pretty much as might be expected. A young girl who looks at herself as in charge of a social setting -- her mother long-dead and sister married away several years ago. I think she is pretty normal and that is what makes her fun to me.

We had a very large but close social circle in college. And I remember feeling exactly the same way, sometimes you were the "social director," matching people up or just SURE that two people were right for each other. And watching the wheel turn, and feeling you had done your share in making your friends so happy!

Emma's advantage over that setting is that she has a class advantage, but it isn't something she concocts in her head, it is just there. And therefore, she winds up with too much influence over Harriet. But she isn't trying to be SO superior. She even imagines that Harriet's father must be someone of consequence also -- just secretly.

That's a good comment Sarah and J. I was comparing Emma and Elizabeth Bennet. They are both on the same age, but are in very different maturity level. Now that you have poited out, I can see that they grew up in different kind of environment. Emma was brought up in a much more advantageous (finantial and social) situation while Elizabeth had more opportunities to grow up emmotionally.

Does that make sense?

I think Elizabeth had a real advantage in having a father who taught her how to think. Emma had no mother and was spoiled by Miss Taylor. Elizabeth has a mother who neglected her daughters' education, but somehow taught them how to make their way into society. Emma never had to reach much further than her own drawing room.

Renata wrote: "That's a good comment Sarah and J. I was comparing Emma and Elizabeth Bennet. They are both on the same age, but are in very different maturity level. Now that you have poited out, I can see that t..."

I agree... Elizabeth Bennet was more mature in several ways. She had to put up alot with society's view of her and her family and had a father who promoted education among women. Emma was very privileged and had the diffent lifestyle as you pointed out. Being pampered and the center of attention would make one think well of themselves. Especially at 21. It's all social for you at this point in time. The lack of mother in Emma's life maybe plays a factor since Miss Taylor was the only mother she had. Plus, the indulgent Father. The fact the Mr. Knightley was the only one to not give into her silly whims and indulge her was what I love most about this book. He's the perfect counterbalance to her personality. He provides the down to earth, compassionate side that she needs(and later learns to develop)and Emma provides the fun, carefree spirit that he needed to indulge in at times.

In comparison Lizzie seemed so much more serious, didn't she? She had an idea of what a "bad" marriage was by seeing how her parents' marriage was, she knew that she could be facing gentile poverty if she resisted "good" matches like Mr. Collins. Emma had none of these concerns.

I think Renata, Jennifer and Jeannette all make very good points about a comparison. Emma is the richest of Austen's heroines. She is also the closest to being an only child - the others all have siblings close to them in age. Emma's sister doesn't seem to exert much influence over her. It does make one wonder why Miss Taylor, who had influence over Emma for so many years, didn't do more to encourage her to improve her mind. And you do often see in Austen an association of reading with a sound understanding. Even Elinor Dashwood, at nineteen, is more mature than Emma.

When you compare Miss Taylor's situation to Jane Fairfax's future prospects, you see how easy Miss Taylor had it. Being a governess was a horrible job, so Miss Taylor started as governess and ended as friend and companion to Emma. She took the easy road and let Emma have her way. I give her credit for 'raising" the girls to be genteel, proper young women, but she let Emma have her own way when it came to applying herself or improving her mind.

Yes, Miss Taylor wanted to stay employed and evolved into more the lady's companion than governess -- became a part of the family, but didn't have the full punch of a parent. I credit her too for helping Emma to be well-spoken, polite (except for one upcoming episode of course), etc. As I spoke about earlier, Emma seems pretty normal to me. Actually, Elinor is more the exception in my mind. But of course, Sense & Sensibility revolves around the necessity that she BE the exception among many ladies of her age.

I just read the exchange between Isabelle and Mr. Woodhouse and wonder that Emma grew up so sane. Those two arguing over their physicians and their portion of gruel. Really funny!

Jeannette wrote: "I just read the exchange between Isabelle and Mr. Woodhouse and wonder that Emma grew up so sane. Those two arguing over their physicians and their portion of gruel. Really funny!"

Hehehe! I love that part! Makes me laugh everytime.