Jane Austen discussion

Who are you liking in the film? Or not?

I am still having trouble with Blake Ritson as Mr. Elton.

Does he still make you think of Edmund Bertram? Or is it something else?

Absolutely, Jeannette. But I should be having that problem with Miller too! However, I am liking his fit as Knightley too much to complain. ha ha

What about you and the Knightleys and Eltons?

I still have to see it tonight. From the picture, I think they look too close in age.

Looking forward to your comments --

Mr. Woodhouse as an older man is the only casting that really works for me. (I think his conduct in the totally invented Emma-as-young-girl scenes isn't at all true to the developing into the character we find in the book.)

Emma is way too flighty; she's played more like a gay 90s flapper than a young woman of her class and era.

It appears to me that the people who made this don't respect Austen as an artist, but see the book as a vehicle for telling a very different story from the one Austen told.

It seems very unlikely to me that anybody seeing this who has not read Austen would be at all of the mind that there was anything in the book worth reading. The movie looks as though it was made from a modern Regency romance by some inferior Harlequin author.

I also have to say that Garai's posture is not at all what Emma would have had. When she sits in a chair in an early scene (I don't remember which one precisely), she sits with a very rounded back, whereas Emma would have been taught to sit up straight; and in the scene after Miss Taylor's wedding where Mr. Knightley comes over and they sit watching Mr. Woodhouse eat soup, Emma positively slouches on the sofa.

Miss Bates is cast much younger than I have always considered her, but otherwise she is doing an excellent job of her talkativeness, though she isn't quite as unobservant as I think Austen's Miss Bates was. But she's the closest I have seen so far to accurate casting.

One more criticism -- why, when he is walking out with Miss Taylor discussing Harriet Smith, does Mr. Knightley turn his knees out so much? He doesn't walk, he waddles. It's very unattractive.

Sorry to have to place a warning here, but I need to clarify something. Criticism is allowed here, but certainly not insulting comments about a person's physical attributes or things about their person.

The actors who appear in film are real people, who have very likely worked hard and paid their dues. It is below the standard of this group to make comments that amount to needless insults.

Sarah wrote: "Sorry to have to place a warning here, but I need to clarify something. Criticism is allowed here, but certainly not insulting comments about a person's physical attributes or things about their p..."

I was not intending criticism of the actors as persons. Since actors are well trained in controlling their bodies, I assume that these are intentional decisions by the actors or director as to how they should represent their characters (or perhaps are a function of the costumes they are required to wear), which is why I referred to them in their roles as character and not by their real names as people. I am quite sure that if the director had called for it, these actors could have been of splendid posture and gait. That they were otherwise I assume was intentional, and I suggest therefore comment worthy.

Though if you think otherwise, and think that we should not criticize the physical way in which they represent their characters, I will defer to your preference

I don't know if the actor playing Knightley intentionally walks that way or not. He has a rather odd gait and it may be that he has some physical reason for walking like that. I really can't see any other explanation for it.

As for Emma slouching at home, I think that is probably a realistic portrayal. It is the director's way of showing that Emma considers Knightley to be family, like a big brother. You would hope that people were able to relax a bit in there own home when they were among family.

I think the casting was well done. I felt the chemistry between Emma and Knightley was realistic and true to the spirit of the book.

I liked Harriet,too. What a cute little air-head she is! And Elton is great. He is so obviously fawning to Emma. Anyone can see his intentions!

The only portrayal that I’m not sure about is Mr. Woodhouse. They really show him as a man who never recovered from his wife’s death. I don’t know if I see him this way. I think I like the hypochondriac better.

Everyman wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Sorry to have to place a warning here, but I need to clarify something. Criticism is allowed here, but certainly not insulting comments about a person's physical attributes or things..."

Thank you for explaining yourself further, Everyman, and thanks ahead of time for everyone using caution in the future on this subject.

Jeannette wrote: "I think the casting was well done. I felt the chemistry between Emma and Knightley was realistic and true to the spirit of the book.

I liked Harriet,too. What a cute little air-head she is! A..."

This Mr. Woodhouse is very quiet too I think. I like the Mr. Woodhouse in the Paltrow version, who seems less serious and more innocent. Jeannette, I believe the worrying was just in his nature too, even though I am sure circumstances added to it. He was always talking about Dr. Perry and damp summer evenings, and debating over which pork was healthier. He was sort of the male counterpart of Miss Bates with his chatter.

See I love the argument in the novel between John and Mr. Woodhouse over Dr. Perry's views concerning which seashore they should travel too. They still don't give grumpy John Knightley enough attention in the films by the way.

Yes, but here he gets to smirk at Emma at her not believing that Elton is making a play for her!

Jeannette wrote: "Yes, but here he gets to smirk at Emma at her not believing that Elton is making a play for her!"

I know at least we get that. Which reminds me of the scene in which Emma finally receives the invitation from the Coles for the dinner party. I know others may disagree, but I like that scene and I like that this is a point in the original story where Emma softens on her social rules. She may be a snob, but she always wants company and friendship.

The funniest part is that it appears that they have snubbed her -- shakes up her little world view, doesn't it?

I know. Austen has this young lady learning some things, doesn't she? Or at least making steps. Boy, I wish my niece would read this with me. I think she would enjoy it -- maybe soon -- sorry I was lapsing into discussing the book, wasn't I?

Isn't there a thread for that? lol

Jeannette wrote: "II liked Harriet,too. What a cute little air-head she is! And Elton is great. He is so obviously fawning to Emma. Anyone can see his intentions!"

I agree with both of those, though slightly less so for Elton -- maybe it's a gender thing, but I don't see him as that handsome, though Knightly contends that he is. But certainly handsome enough to get a wealthy wife!

I think that Austen was more circumspect about Elton's preference. In the film, as you say, his intentions are clear. In the book, I think less so. In the movie Emma seems pretty thickheaded not to see the truth; in the book, it's more subtle, and Emma could be excused for not understanding what was going on. But I suppose that sort of subtlety is harder in the movie where when they two are on screen together Elton has to show his interactions with the two, which Austen can conceal.

Sarah wrote: "Which reminds me of the scene in which Emma finally receives the invitation from the Coles for the dinner party. I know others may disagree, but I like that scene and I like that this is a point in the original story where Emma softens on her social rules. She may be a snob, but she always wants company and friendship."

Yes, that was very well played, and very true to the book. With first Isabella and then Miss Taylor gone, Emma has to relax her standards a bit in order to have enough human contact to fill her day, since she obviously isn't going to fill it with reading! But really, isn't her first relaxation of social standards her connection with Harriet Smith? She may pretend that HS is the child of a gentleman in order to make it okay to socialize with her, but it's pretty clear that a true snob wouldn't socialize so intimately with an illegitimate daughter of unknown parentage.

But you're right, the Coles' are in trade -- yuck -- and it is indeed a drop in status for her to go. But isn't this a reflection of an ongoing social change in England at the time?

There is a line in the book that gave me a little more insight into the workings of Emma's mind. She and Frank Churchill are discussing Jane Fairfax and Jane's relationship with Miss Campbell: "...but the misery of having a very particular friend always at hand, to do everything better than one does one's self."

So funny that she can't see that this is exactly how she must appear to Miss Smith. She sees it as an evil in Jane Fairfax, but in her own case it is only natural and proper since she is the superior creature.

Everyman, I have yet to see a version of Emma where Elton was played by an actor whom I consider really handsome, or terribly charming. I imagine the film makers don't want too many handsome men to be courting Emma. Plus, we might be more sympathetic to Elton if he appeared younger and much better looking.

Everyman wrote: "I also have to say that Garai's posture is not at all what Emma would have had. When she sits in a chair in an early scene (I don't remember which one precisely), she sits with a very rounded back..."

I haven't finished the whole thing, but what I have seen is very enjoyable. The only thing that I really noticed that I would not have expected is the way that Emma waves. I didn't think that they would really wave, or even if they did, not like that. I agree that maybe that isn't the way that the characters were meant to be, but I also think that it is extremely important. I was watching the events of the show, not Emma's posture, or Mr. Knightley's knees. Although, I can see what you mean.

Everyman wrote: "Jeannette wrote: "II liked Harriet,too. What a cute little air-head she is! And Elton is great. He is so obviously fawning to Emma. Anyone can see his intentions!"

I agree with both of those, thou..."

I agree about Elton. In this version he seemed overbearing. It was a little too much for me. Although, I do find Blake Ritson pretty handsome, I wasn't crazy about his Mr. Elton. He could have been a little more subtle. But I guess that could be more of a screen writer thing than an actor thing.

Everyman wrote: "Sarah wrote: "Which reminds me of the scene in which Emma finally receives the invitation from the Coles for the dinner party. I know others may disagree, but I like that scene and I like that this..."

I agree, the Harriet friendship is the first real place in the book where the social lines blur. Like you said though, you can almost hear Emma saying, " No problem, dear Harriet I am sure your parents are very important people." Emma likes to dream and she is dreaming that her social divisions are still in tact. She remains very adamant about certain things though -- later in the story as she examines Mrs. Elton as a vulgar daughter of the merchant class.

I love that the examination of Emma Woodhouse and Highbury did speak about the changes in society at that time though. One real attraction of the story for me.

Mr. Elton was a bit over the top. He practically jumped into her lap in the carriage. That was funny.

Jeannette wrote: "Mr. Elton was a bit over the top. He practically jumped into her lap in the carriage. That was funny."

That's true -- but isn't that the way Austen described it?

"To restrain him as much as might be, by her own manners, she was immediately preparing to speak with exquisite calmness and gravity of the weather and the night; but scarcely had she begun, scarcely had they passed the sweep-gate and joined the other carriage, than she found her subject cut up -- her hand seized -- her attention demanded, and Mr. Elton actually making violent love to her: availing himself of the precious opportunity, declaring sentiments which must be already well known, hoping -- fearing -- adoring -- ready to die if she refused him; but flattering himself that his ardent attachment and unequalled love and unexampled passion could not fail of having some effect...She felt that half this folly must be drunkenness, and therefore could hope that it might belong only to the passing hour."

Violent love, drunkenness -- this is one place where I think the film very accurately reflects the intensity of the interaction which Austen intended.

The scene I'm referring to is on the way to Randalls, with John in the carriage. I would have thought that he would not have been "permitted" to sit so close to an unmarried lady, nor be so obvious in the presence of her older brother.

The scene where he professes his love was in character. I love Austen's choice of "ready to die if she refused him."

I know -- Elton did seem just as bad on the ride over to the Westons as on the ride back. Wonder what carriage etiquette was in that day. If not many carriages were available and limited seating, was it improper to sit by a lady? Of course, they really had him glued to her for affect in the Romola movie, but in a normal instance, I wonder if this was a place where close contact was deemed ok.

This happened in the new Persuasion, too. Henrietta sleeps on Wentworth's shoulder. Wouldn't the two women have sat together and comforted each other?

You would think so Jeannette. Wentworth wasn't even a distant family member -- Anne was and she was female. They certainly interpret that scene broadly in that adaptation! I don't remember -- did it seem they were trying to convey anything with that in Persuasion 2009?

Now that someone mentions it, maybe the casting is intentional. As intentional as casting Mr. Collins in P&P. I always took Mr. Elton as the handsome mister popularity. Kinda how Chuck Bass is in Gossip Girl. Which makes Mr. Knightly more well knightly/purer :P

I like this Emma over Paltrow. But that could be more that I grew sick of Paltrow as an actress and couldn't take her too seriously in the Emma role. This Emma, I simply adore her expressions. I love the way her lip quirks when she's up to mischief. It's charming and seems quite Emma. I didn't notice the lack of more formal appearances by Emma until it was mentioned in this thread. Reflecting back on past Emma versions, do you think due to the times gradually such a "straight laced stiff" expression was lessoned in order to more appeal to the audience? Do you think directors chose to tell their Emmas to appear more friendly b/c being too stiff-lady-like may be off-putting to young RL girls (that those girls may think Emma too snobbish and then lose all care about any romances?). Then again Gossip Girl has lots of pretenious snobs sooooo huh.

Wonder why that direction was taken.

Miss Bates. <3
That's as simply as I could express her casting. She's much younger than imagined but I adore her portrayal of the character. I got to love Miss Bates more through this miniseries.

Are you at Frank Churchill yet? If not, I won't talk about his casting.

Mister Woodhouse is a FAVORITE! Always loved his actor so I'm not going to say bad things about him ;) I loved the whole cake scene. But lemme ask the group, did you think him denying the children cake seemed more of a modern choice? For example, modern times says we shouldn't feed children too many sweets b/c it's bad on the diet. I'm not sure what it was about his phrasing that made me think that was too modern for words.

Well, Mr. Woodhouse was against cake in the book, too. He didn't prevent the children from having it, but it is mentioned in the book that all of Mr. Perry's children eat cake (probably behind Mr. Woodhouse's back.)

I haven't decided about Miss Bates because they have made Mrs. Bates so creepy. She was capable of conversation in the book (at one point she stays with Mr. W during Emma's absence.) In this film they have her looking somewhat catatonic. As I mentioned before, the film maker is really making this version more melancholy.

I must not have been impressed with Frank Churchill, because I can't recall much about him, and I only watched this 4 days ago!

Tanja wrote: "Mister Woodhouse is a FAVORITE! Always loved his actor so I'm not going to say bad things about him ;) "

Mr. Woodhouse and Mr. Bennett, two of my favorite male Austen characters. Maybe because they remind me of myself? :)

Jeannette wrote: "I haven't decided about Miss Bates because they have made Mrs. Bates so creepy. She was capable of conversation in the book (at one point she stays with Mr. W during Emma's absence.) In this film they have her looking somewhat catatonic. As I mentioned before, the film maker is really making this version more melancholy."

That's a good point. Mrs. Bates is indeed more "with it" in the book, though Miss Bates is very true to Austen. But I do see what you mean by melancholy. The book seems much lighter, and in some places funnier (the scene where Elton proposes is, IMO, much funnier in the text than in the film.)

Everyman wrote: "Tanja wrote: "Mister Woodhouse is a FAVORITE! Always loved his actor so I'm not going to say bad things about him ;) "

Mr. Woodhouse and Mr. Bennett, two of my favorite male Austen characters. Ma..."

I hope you tend toward Mr. Bennett more days than you tend toward Mr. Woodhouse! :)

Has anybody else gotten the email from PBS about week two of the series? The picture they use of Emma is positively awful, IMO. I can't imagine Austen ever thinking Emma would look look like that. What do others think of it?

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/masterpiece/e...

Mrs. Elton was superb!

Everyman wrote: "Has anybody else gotten the email from PBS about week two of the series? The picture they use of Emma is positively awful, IMO. I can't imagine Austen ever thinking Emma would look look like that..."

They danced some rather lively dances! And Emma was rather uninhibited, twirling around with Frank Churchill. Would be nice to think that people were able to enjoy themselves.

They could have selected better images of Emma. That one falls flat for me in terms of promoting the miniseries. I'd rather see an impish matchmaker image than open mouth GAW!

Mr. Woodhouse makes me giggle splendidly. He reminds me of a heartwarming uncle or grandfather. You simply want to hug him.

Mrs. Elton is AWESOME! I haven't found a Mrs. Elton that I didn't like.

Jeannette wrote: "They danced some rather lively dances! And Emma was rather uninhibited, twirling around with Frank Churchill. Would be nice to think that people were able to enjoy themselves."

The ball actually surprised me quite a lot. Back in my younger days, I was a performance dancer in period English dancing, mostly Playford and his successors (John Playford's English Dancing Master was first published in 1651 and revised and expanded by Playford and his successors until about 1730). In almost every period ball scene I have seen I know most or all of the dances well, and for those I don't know I recognize the figures being danced.

For this ball scene, I didn't recognize any of the dances or music. Which I guess isn't surprising, since I have read on another site that they decided not to use actual dances, but to choreograph their own dances from scratch. Some of the figures are authentic, but some of them are not so at all. For example, I'm not aware of any ball dance of the period in which men danced twirling with crossed arms (that seems more like something that sailors would do when dancing hornpipes).

The vigor of some of the dancing was also less than authentic for an indoor ball. That sort of dancing was sometimes done outdoors, on for example May Day, but the indoor balls were more sedate occasions, with more subdued vigor. I can see the filmatic appeal of it, but one should perhaps recognize that Jane Austen, who loved balls, would not have recognized what went on in some of those dances as part of her ball dancing experience.

And to open with a square figure would have been quite unusual -- there were some, but not very many, dances using square figures, but the first dance of a ball was always a dance of couples in lines with the lead couple at the top.

I suppose that anybody with special expertise in a given area would find things in which these movies are not a realistic depiction of the actual lifestyle of the time. English ball dancing happens to be one of my areas of special expertise, so I paid particular attention to it. It does make for good theater, but I hope viewers don't think that's what a ball would have been like for Emma.

Everyman,

Do you recall any of the ball scenes in previous Austen films? Were they more accurate to the time and place to your knowledge? Any particular ones, because I would love to go back and watch them again.

This discussion brings to mind a favorite line from the 2005 version of P&P:

"Caroline Bingley: I can't help thinking that at some point someone is going to produce a piglet and we'll all have to chase it. "

Do you think Joe Wright was making a little dig at movie versions of balls and the style of dancing?

I'll concur with Everyman on the dances. Recalling the progression of Austen films, it seems the more "modern", the more liviler.

Sarah, you're making me want to crack out my DVDs to confirm my memory :P

Actually, it seems that the more lively dances are more period-correct. A dance historian wrote a long blog post about it; it's fascinating. You can read it at http://www.kickery.com/2008/03/regenc...

Tanja wrote: "I'll concur with Everyman on the dances. Recalling the progression of Austen films, it seems the more "modern", the more liviler.

Sarah, you're making me want to crack out my DVDs to confirm my..."

Well, that will be a hardship, won't it, Tanja?!?

Barbara wrote: "Actually, it seems that the more lively dances are more period-correct. A dance historian wrote a long blog post about it; it's fascinating. You can read it at http://www.kickery.com/2008/03/regenc..."

Thanks for the link, Barbara. I am so not an expert on the period!