Book Nook Cafe discussion

Book: The Help

Author: Kathryn Stockett

When: The discussion will begin February 1, 2010

Where: In this thread.

Spoiler Etiquette: Warning !! This thread contains spoilers for the entire book !!

The various threads for this book have been consolidated into this single thread.

Hardcover: 464 pages
Publisher: Amy Einhorn Books/Putnam; 1 edition (February 10, 2009)

Amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/Help-Kathryn-St...

The Help

From Publishers Weekly

Starred Review. What perfect timing for this optimistic, uplifting debut novel (and maiden publication of Amy Einhorn's new imprint) set during the nascent civil rights movement in Jackson, Miss., where black women were trusted to raise white children but not to polish the household silver. Eugenia Skeeter Phelan is just home from college in 1962, and, anxious to become a writer, is advised to hone her chops by writing about what disturbs you. The budding social activist begins to collect the stories of the black women on whom the country club sets relies and mistrusts enlisting the help of Aibileen, a maid who's raised 17 children, and Aibileen's best friend Minny, who's found herself unemployed more than a few times after mouthing off to her white employers. The book Skeeter puts together based on their stories is scathing and shocking, bringing pride and hope to the black community, while giving Skeeter the courage to break down her personal boundaries and pursue her dreams. Assured and layered, full of heart and history, this one has bestseller written all over it. (Feb.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.
Starred Review. What perfect timing for this optimistic, uplifting debut novel (and maiden publication of Amy Einhorn's new imprint) set during the nascent civil rights movement in Jackson, Miss., where black women were trusted to raise white children but not to polish the household silver. Eugenia Skeeter Phelan is just home from college in 1962, and, anxious to become a writer, is advised to hone her chops by writing about what disturbs you. The budding social activist begins to collect the stories of the black women on whom the country club sets relies and mistrusts enlisting the help of Aibileen, a maid who's raised 17 children, and Aibileen's best friend Minny, who's found herself unemployed more than a few times after mouthing off to her white employers. The book Skeeter puts together based on their stories is scathing and shocking, bringing pride and hope to the black community, while giving Skeeter the courage to break down her personal boundaries and pursue her dreams. Assured and layered, full of heart and history, this one has bestseller written all over it. (Feb.)
Copyright © Reed Business Information, a division of Reed Elsevier Inc. All rights reserved.

About the Author

Kathryn Stockett was born and raised in Jackson, Mississippi. After graduating from the University of Alabama with a degree in English and Creative Writing, she moved to New York City, where she worked in magazine publishing and marketing for nine years. This is her first novel.

Reading Group Guide Questions


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The following questions Contain SPOILERS ****

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1. Who was your favorite character? Why?

2. What do you think motivated Hilly? On one hand she’s so unpleasant to Aibileen and her own help, as well as to Skeeter once she realizes she can’t control her. But she’s a wonderful mother. Do you think you can be a good mother but at the same time a deeply flawed person?

3. Like Hilly, Skeeter’s mother is a prime example of someone deeply flawed yet somewhat sympathetic. She seems to care for Skeeter – and she also seems to have very real feelings for Constantine. Yet the ultimatum she gives to Constantine is untenable. And most of her interaction with Skeeter is critical. Do you think Skeeter’s mother is a sympathetic or unsympathetic character? Why?

4. How much of a person’s character do you think is shaped by the times in which they live?

5. Did it bother you that Skeeter is willing to overlook so many of Stuart’s faults so that she can get married, and it’s not until he literally gets up and walks away that the engagement falls apart?

6. Do you think Minny was justified in her distrust of white people?

7. Do you think that had Aibileen stayed working for Miss Elizabeth, that Mae Mobley would have grown up to be racist like her mother? Do you think racism is inherent, or taught?

8. From the perspective of a 21st century reader, the hair shellac system that Skeeter undergoes seems ludicrous. Yet women still alter their looks in rather peculiar ways as the definition of “beauty” changes with the times. Looking back on your past, what’s the most ridiculous beauty regimen you ever underwent?

9. The author manages to paint Aibileen with a quiet grace and an aura of wisdom about her. How do you think she does this?

10. Do you think there are still vestiges of racism in relationships where people of color work for people who are white? Have you heard stories of someone who put away their valuable jewelry before their nanny comes – so they trust this person to look after their child, but not their diamond rings?

11. What did you think about Minny’s pie for Miss Hilly? Would you have gone as far as Minny did for revenge?

Thought I would start by looking at the discussion questions but I think they go too far as a starting point.

So I will ask one of my own -- How did any of you feel as you started to read this book? What I am driving at is I tend to be unhappy about reading what is in essence dialect.

So -- I kind of groaned. But very quickly got so entranced with the story that my annoyance with the speech patterns dissolved.

And then -- directly to the separate bathroom issue.

Do you this book is instructive of past practices?

I am still having problems with the dialect. I am not having any luck getting into it, but will keep trying. I think I have only read a chapter ot two.

Oh I'm glad you started with your own question, as I didn't want to look at the discussion questions for fear of spoilers.

I too had trouble with the dialect/prose, but I think I am able to dislike it and move on , although I still find myself thinking "that's not how I would have written it." The two domestics and their bosses have differentiated themselves and I'm completely caught up with Minny and her boss Miss Clara and how that will unfold. I've already got my theory as to how Miss Clara wound up in the situation she's in, and I can't wait to see if I'm right.

The bathroom issue seems completely authentic to me, although I have to say I never thought of it when I thought of civil rights infractions of the 50s and 60s. I'm surprised that Aibileen's boss hadn't thought of it until well after she'd hired her, but who knows.

I have no evidence, but I'm assuming that the author did some amount of research before launching into this period, and believe that the actions of discrimination we are seeing are not made up.

I'm finding this to be an interesting drama, but there is tension for me as I read, and think about the fact that while these are fictional characters, the circumstances are likely far from fictional -- they likely happened to relatives of people I know. I found myself wondering if the discomfort/distaste I feel while reading has to do with my race, and if it is different for others reading this.

Barbara and Carol,

I read The Help last summer and have since passed my copy along. I was afraid I've forgotten so much that I couldn't join the discussion, but you two have already opened up topics about which I have something to say.

First of all I remember at the time of reading hearing some criticism of the dialect. Was that you, JoAnn? For me the dialect was familiar enough to read right for my inner ear. In other words, not unlike speech that I've grown up with, including some of the odd colloquialisms.

Now, what really bothered me about The Help, along this same line of criticism, were the numerous anachronisms. I have a pet peeve with authors who make mistakes of time and place for slang, lifestyles, and WHITE-OUT. LOL! I have to say that this issue bothered me enough to taint my enjoyment of the book. I'm persnickety that way.

Second, I guess it's in an afterword that Stockett reveals that her family had an African-American maid during Stockett's childhood. I think that she got a lot of her insight from personal experience, including, no doubt, stories from friends and family.

The women in the book are about a half a generation off from my family and of the deeper Deep South (was the book set in Mississippi? I've forgotten.) The main characters are about a dozen years younger than my mother and a dozen years older than me. So it's hard to draw precise parallels, but everything I read in the book was familiar to me from stories from my mother's or grandmother's generation. By the time I reached adulthood, African-American "help" was uncommon but my grandmother was a young adult at the time of the Tulsa race riots and my mother was born just a couple of years after the riots. For those unfamiliar, the race riots are a story of egregious and relentless segration and racism. My family was working class (at best) and, as is often the case, held their racism with less gentility and more tenacity than middle and upper class folks may have. The usual reason given for this societally is that the lower classes have greater economic stress and competition and fewer opportunities to feel superior. Wheter you buy that or not, I freely admit that I grew up hearing a lot of racism.

Carol, I was under the impression--I don't remember from what--that Aibileen's boss wanted a separate bathroom as an expression of status or power. She wanted a separate bathroom, after years of not having one, because she felt it was the time to afford it or demand it. Might it also have had something to do with jealousy or discomfort with Aibileen's warmer relationship with the boss's daughter?

I have heard stories of maids who weren't allowed to go to the bathroom while they were at work. They had to hold it or use an outhouse, if one were available. I'm not familiar with the idea of a separate bathroom strictly for the help, but I do remember my grandmother teaching me the various machinations women go through so their bottoms won't touch a public toilet and I do remember that one of the reasons for avoiding that was that black women might have used the toilet. Only I'm certain that she didn't say "black."

I think your discomfort in reading this, Carol, probably comes from the reminder of all the indignities and worse laid upon women of your race, and such a short time ago. But I also think the book does well in building dramatic, novelistic, tension outside of the subject matter. There's a story here, building to a climax, and I felt that tension as I read the book. It's a satisfying read in that respect and I found it a fast read, drawing me on to discover the various mysteries and resolutions. I thought Stockett created some memorable characters, though I'm not clear on their names. Someone do me a favor and remind me of who Miss Clara is--the mother of one of the younger set of friends?

Jan O'Cat

Jan, what a wonderful long post! I was afraid to read it for fear that I'd read something I didn't want to know yet, but you kept it completely spoiler free despite not having the book in front of you. Thanks!

You may be right about Aibileen's boss, Miss Leefolt's, motivations for wanting a second bathroom. That wasn't apparent to me at the point where I was reading about it. Or maybe again it's the lens through which I was reading that section. What stayed with me was all the overheard conversations between Miss Leefolt and her ladies club pals about how awful it was to have the maid using the white folks' toilet, and the way in which she made a point of emphasizing to Aibileen how she was now only to use the new bathroom in the back.

Also, at this point in the book, I don't even get that Miss Leefolt notices her daughter enough to see that the child has bonded with Aibileen, especially when there are several scenes of the Mae running after her mom, wanting to be picked up, crying when her mom leaves, etc.

Oh, and I mis-spoke, I said Miss Clara when I meant Miss Celia, the young bride of Miss Hilly's old boyfriend who is Minny's new boss.

I agree with you that there is a nice story developing here outside the racial conflicts, and it has drawn me in.

Wow, Jan did a great job considering she read The Help around the same time that I did. I planned to jump in more on discussions but I gave my copy away and I may be less able than I originally thought.

I seem to remember thinking that Miss Leefolt wanted the separate bathroom mostly for status. Didn't she have less money than many of the other women in her group? I thought a lot of her interactions with Aibileen were based on learned habit, but also on expectations of her class. She's so self-centered that she doesn't really look at the people around her.

Clearly I can't use pages or chapters so I'll have to follow all of your leads, but I do hope you discuss Miss Lefolt's relationship with Mae.

I came to like Miss Celia. She's a sympathetic character for many reasons. And Minny?? Great character, but again, I need to follow a lead before I say more.

kate

I came to like Miss Celia but reasons for that go farther on.

Carol -- I find myself weighed down by some of the stories. And while none can put themselves in somebody else's shoes it is not just about your own race. I was involved in Civil Rights work and I feel the validity of the stories.

My mother had a woman to help her after I was born. I learned years later that my mother had some kind of a heart condition as a result of rheumatic fever. And I also heard the story that my mother was pretty upset that when I was a toddler, I would call for Lisbeth before I would call for her. I grew up in the North where we had this fantasy that we weren't as "bad." Not by rules but many just as prejudiced.

I was in a small city that had a large black population. And while there were 16 schools in our system there was only one black teacher.

Bobbie

Like Jan (HI, JAN!) and Kate, I read this book when it came out, so I'll have to re-visit it before I can discuss plot and character. I did not love the book, but I read it avidly. I will share that it had much resonance with me based on my upbringing. My mother-in-law's home has a separate toilet in the basement for her "help" and she maintained a separate cupboard with the worn utensils, glassware and plates that these women were permitted to use. She prohibited me from using last names to address them or the men who worked in her yard and garden. They had to use the back stairs (unless they were cleaning the front stairs, of course.) Despite this demeaning behavior, she relied totally on these women to raise her son lovingly, to prepare her food, to clean her own toilets and clothes, and to nurse her in her last illness. She believed she had a mutually warm, loving and respectful relationship with them. The relationships were intensely personal. My own father, for example, had a wet-nurse who raised him, and my husband clearly had a closer and warmer relationship with the maid than he had with his own mother. It will not surprise you that I had a strained relationship with my mother-in-law in the context of these issues, and I found parts of this novel to be painful.

I wonder if any of you recall the TV series "I'll Fly Away." I thought it did a good job of giving us the perspectives of both the domestic workers and the white families who hired them. Lovely show. I miss it and often wish it would be re-issued.

Yes, I do recall and I did love the TV Series "I'll Fly Away."

I agree with you use of the word "painful" to describe this novel.

Great comments, everyone, thanks. I'm going to hold off posting more until I get a little farther along in the book.

Carol said: "You may be right about Aibileen's boss, Miss Leefolt's, motivations for wanting a second bathroom. That wasn't apparent to me at the point where I was reading about it. Or maybe again it's the lens through which I was reading that section. What stayed with me was all the overheard conversations between Miss Leefolt and her ladies club pals about how awful it was to have the maid using the white folks' toilet, and the way in which she made a point of emphasizing to Aibileen how she was now only to use the new bathroom in the back."

Carol, I'd forgotten this aspect of the book. I'm remembering now that the first few chapters plunged the reader into Aibileen's world and it was difficult at first to read all of the nuances and predict where the story was going. I remember feeling creepy familiarity with the account of the ladies' club members talking as though Aibileen wasn't there, wasn't human, was unable to hear. . .or what? I've seen that happen myself, in my generation and it's impossible to know what the people doing can be thinking. It really is an exercise of power, I think, even more than simple discourtesy. Not just being thoughtless, but being so "superior" that one doesn't have to think of others.

Carol also said: "Also, at this point in the book, I don't even get that Miss Leefolt notices her daughter enough to see that the child has bonded with Aibileen, "

On reflection I think you're right about this. I don't think I ever felt clear about Miss Leefolt's perception of Aibileen's and the child's relationship. Yet, my memory is fuzzy. I guess I'll have to wait for a later chapter discussion to remember whether what I think was the outcome was in fact what happened, or just my own imagination taking authorship.

Jan O'Cat, diving into some murky and inarticulate depths to avoid any hint of spoilers

Kate said: " said Miss Clara when I meant Miss Celia, the young bride of Miss Hilly's old boyfriend who is Minny's new boss."

Oh, now that I remember who Miss Celia is, I agree. She's an interesting and sympathetic character. I was quite intrigued by her and would have to say she's one of my favorites. More to discuss later!

Jan O'Cat

Sarah said: "Despite this demeaning behavior, she relied totally on these women to raise her son lovingly, to prepare her food, to clean her own toilets and clothes, and to nurse her in her last illness. She believed she had a mutually warm, loving and respectful relationship with them. The relationships were intensely personal."

Like you, Sarah, I didn't love the book but there were some things that I appreciated about it including the exploration of this very complicated relationship between white women and their African-American help. And, though later in the book, the relationships of ALL of the women to men in that time and place. What a complicated world, so dichotomous with warmth, need, and ultimate intimacy on one hand and resentment, power struggles, and never-told secrets on the other. I think Stockett's perception of this conflict is the heart of the book.

Jan O'Cat

I've just finished Chapter 8 so I thought I'd return and make my last post (unless I respond to something) in the thread. I'm still hooked, but boy am I mad! This time at Skeeter and her selfish use of Aibileen to get her newspaper column written, and by her blind naivete that has her try to push Aibileen into telling her story of being a black maid in a white household when she clearly does not want to. I sense that Skeeter is supposed to be the sympathetic character and yet to me she seems to be a privileged and dangerously ignorant innocent.

On the other hand, it is interesting how Stockett gives her characters complexity and shadings, and I suppose it can be said that Skeeter is no different. Just when I'm prepared to demonize Hilly and Elizabeth, they display admirable qualities in their genuine caring for Skeeter, in spite of their perhaps misguided way of showing it in their efforts to get her married off.

Bobbie, Jan and Sarah, I'm reading with interest your own first hand accounts about these attitudes. It reminded me that as I'm reading it feels like this is happening long ago, and I'm always surprised when there is reference to the real time frame, which is early '60's, not so long ago.

Carole,

One of the things that I find painful is that it is not so long ago. And what you express about feeling as if it is seems common. While outwardly our behaviors have changed I always wonder what attitudes go on underneath it all.

Dealing with people's attitudes is always difficult and it doesn't mean that the same people don't also have admirable qualities. We are all pretty complex I think.

I have pretty much always had jobs where I was dealing with the public in various capacities. I like people. But it can be interesting and fun as well as difficult.

Barbara

hi everybody

I bought this books last summer.I read three times the two first chapters and couldn't get into it.Now It's the forth time and I'm in chapter 20.I feel that now I'm much more involved in my reading.My reaction varies for each chapter.I feels sometimes confused losing the pace.
I'm really upset about Eugenia.I feel that she try to control the situation pushing the maids to talk about their life where at anytimes be catch.I feel in one way she's sensitive about their life and in the other way she's totally selfish where her vision is only on her success

Marie-vicky wrote: "I'm really upset about Eugenia.I feel that she try to control the situation pushing the maids to talk about their life where at anytimes be catch.I feel in one way she's sensitive about their life and in the other way she's totally selfish where her vision is only on her success
..."

Hi Marie-Vicky,

I had the same response to Eugenia. I'm beginning to accept it in service of the plot, and also because the maids come to it willingly although with trepidation, but if I stop to think about it I still think of it as selfish. But I suppose if she backed off there would be no story, LOL.

Carol said: "I'm beginning to accept it in service of the plot, and also because the maids come to it willingly although with trepidation, but if I stop to think about it I still think of it as selfish. But I suppose if she backed off there would be no story, "

Carol, you've expressed my thinking exactly. I was so uncomfortable about Skeeter pushing the maids for her own ends. I thought it was yet another expression of thoughtlessness in the one character presented as relatively tolerant and sensitive. But you're right--without Skeeter writing the book, there's nothing driving the plot.

Jan O'Cat

JanOMalleycat wrote: "Carol said: "I'm beginning to accept it in service of the plot, and also because the maids come to it willingly although with trepidation, but if I stop to think about it I still think of it as sel..."

Boy, it is harder to remember back to reading this book than I expected. I think I was first uncomfortable with Skeeter pushing the maids. Now I think it was possible she didn't realize the depth of what she was asking. Even as a sympathetic person, she still lived in the system and may not have had a real understanding until she began the interviews.

Kathy

Kathy said- "I think I was first uncomfortable with Skeeter pushing the maids. Now I think it was possible she didn't realize the depth of what she was asking. Even as a sympathetic person, she still lived in the system and may not have had a real understanding until she began the interviews."

I agree with that point.
And to her motives---she also wanted to get information about Constantine.

When I worked with several blacks I noticed they had their own way of speaking when amongst themselves, but when a supposedly more educated white person was in their midst, they talked "white". Maybe that is natural to speak differently when not with family.

I also agree on the point that Skeeter still lived in the system and didn't have a real understanding until she began the interviews. Besides not realizing the true danger they were in I don't think she realized how awful some of the stories were going to be. I think that she thought that it would be more benign.

Barbara

Nophoto-f-25x33 Kathy said- "I think I was first uncomfortable with Skeeter pushing the maids. Now I think it was possible she didn't realize the depth of what she was asking. Even as a sympathetic person, she still lived in the system and may not have had a real understanding until she began the interviews."

I agree with that point.
And to her motives---she also wanted to get information about Constantine. ..."

You both raise good points. I recall that when Skeeter learned that Aibileen's friend had a son? grandson? who was beaten and eventually left blinded by the attack, she thought of it almost like a news report about someone she didn't know, rather than as up close and personal evidence of the threat under which blacks (like those she was encouraging to do something dangerous) lived every day.

Bobbie57 wrote: "It occurs to me that she didn't realize how dangerous it was until she herself was physically threated. I'm sorry if I am going to far because I don't know anymore where it was in the chapters -- b..."

Yup, that is beyond Chapter 8 since I haven't come to it yet. Don't know if Alias can move this post to that thread with a context-setting sentence.

I'll repost it in the next folder. No problem. Sorry if I have created a spoiler.

Barbara

I've deleted post #28 from this folder and reposted it in Folder 3.

Bobbie57 wrote: "I'll repost it in the next folder. No problem. Sorry if I have created a spoiler.

Barbara"

That's okay, it wasn't very far past this chapter, I've gotten to it now.

Hi, I'm jumping in a little late - just picked up this book at the library over the weekend and finished chapter 8 last night.

Bobbie, I had a similar reaction as I began to read this book. Frankly, I was disappointed with the dialect. I had seen so many wonderful reviews but after the first two sentences I was thinking, "oh, no - a stereotypical novel that I'm going to hate."
But because of the reviews, I kept going and I did soon get past the dialect and into the story, just as you did.

The author seems to paint a realistic picture of what it was to have lived in Jackson, Mississippi in 1962 - at least as far as I can tell. I was very young during the civil rights movement (only 8 years old when Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was assassinated) - but those years have always fascinated me.

One of the sad things about those times is the thought many women had that somehow African-Americans were "dirty". Awful! My mother still feels that way - something I find shocking since my father instilled in my siblings and I an equal respect for all people. I guess my mom kept her feelings bottled up until he passed away . . .

Anyway, I think this is a story that we can all relate to in some way. The author is really portraying a cast of characters that are diverse.

I did wonder about a couple of things. What was the relationship between Constantine and Miss Skeeter's parents? Constantine's father was white, and she was mysteriously sent away when Miss Skeeter was away at college. Miss Skeeter remembers her father giving Constantine an extra dollar from time to time, with the instructions that Miss Skeeter not tell her mother. I'm assuming more will be revealed in later chapters.

And what's this about Miss Celia being a sympathetic character? In the first 8 chapters she just sits around doing nothing all day and tries to put something over on her husband by secretly hiring a maid. I guess I need to read on to find out why she is a character many of you really like!

Kay -- not wishing to create any spoilers here, let me just say More Will Be Revealed!! Keep On!

Barbara

** Re-posting to consolidate discussion to a single thread


Carol/Bonadie (Bonadie) I'm up to page 174 of the ARC which is well into Chapter 13.

I'm still thoroughly engaged in the story, and wondering what the repurcussions are going to be on Aibileen and Minny telling their stories. I'm enjoying the plot developments unfolding with each of the MC's; the arrival of Mr. Johnny, Miss Celia's husband, on the seen was amusing. And the romance developing was surprise, but a welcome twist.

But where is Miss Celia? We still don't know why she's so sickly and stays in her bedroom most of the day. Is she a drug addict or an alcoholic? And, I'm wondering when we will find out about Skeeter's first maid, is it Constantine?

I was surprised that Minny decided to participate, I would have thought she was still afraid for her job. And by the way, I'm not sure we were told... did she steal from Hilly or did she not?
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message 3: by Marie-vicky
Feb 08, 2010 06:13am
Hi everybody,

I'm just a little bit farther than than chapter 17.

I finally get into the book and looking forward what will happen?I have the feeling that is going to be sad.I have still some problem with the southern Language.
I'm worried about the relationship between Hilly and Eugenia.I feel that Hilly will sneek her nose in pretty soon and wil make trouble.

I'm a little frustrated with Eugenia.I cannot really understand her personnality.On one side she's disagree how the white people treat the maids and the other side she's still hang out with these friends who have a nasty way to behave with the maids.
I feel that Eugenia is also really naive in one way and doesn't realize the danger and the repercussions if people find out.She haven't think about a plan to protect the maids if the things gets bad.Or maybe she's totally selfish and doesn't care.
I'm also really worried about her boyfriend.I don't know why I cannot trust him.

I think Minny is going to be more involve.She's really smart and I like her personnality she is a fighter inside with a softness.

Miss Celia is struggling but the fact she doesn't have friend her relationship with her maid is different.

I=======================================

message 4: by Carol/Bonadie (last edited Feb 12, 2010 09:58am)
Feb 12, 2010 09:55am

Marie-vicky wrote: "I'm a little frustrated with Eugenia.I cannot really understand her personality.On one side she's disagree how the white people treat the maids and the other side she's still hang out with these friends who have a nasty way to behave with the maids.
I feel that Eugenia is also really naive in one way and doesn't realize the danger and the repercussions if people find out.She haven't think about a plan to protect the maids if the things gets bad.Or maybe she's totally selfish and doesn't care.
I'm also really worried about her boyfriend.I don't know why I cannot trust him. ..."

Marie-Vicky, I agree with most of this and posted something similar earlier, about Eugenia being distressingly naive. As I saw the developments around Hilly discovering the copy of the Jim Crow laws in her bag, I realized that she is naive not only about the danger to the maids in what they are doing, but also about her own friends' attitudes toward the path she is exploring. I think she is smart enough to know that Hilly won't embrace what she's doing, but I don't think she really understood HIlly's investment in the current social and political environment.I don't think it's that Eugenia isn't smart enough, it's just that she never had reason to think about it. Which makes me not quite root for her as a heroine, because it seems as though she only started thinking about the two-class system, and the hatred behind it, when it was of interest to her as a book topic.

Your comment about her continuing to hang around these friends is interesting, and sort of adds to my argument. She's not so invested in civil rights that her friends' comments bother her enough that she would break with them. And we talked earlier about how complex friendships can be. I bet many of us tolerate behavior in long time friends, or relatives, that we find troublesome, simply because we see other sides of the same person that endear us to the person, or because the person has been kind to us personally, even as they act out with others.
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message 5: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 14, 2010 02:45pm

I think I'm past Chpt 17 but I won't post the specific thing I wanted to reference till I check. However I do want to say that this book continues to stir me up. I was thinking today, and emailing a friend, that in 1962 I was 8 years old and lived in a Philly suburb, with my mom and Dad both college grads and teachers in the Philadelphia school system. We experienced racism, but so covert as to be almost undiscernable to an 8 year old. The qualitative difference just blows my mind between my life and the lives of these women. I hope I don't offend anyone when I say that I am thankful that I didn't grow up anywhere near MS. Some would say that at least the racism was up front, and not hidden like in the north, but I'll take hidden!

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message 6: by Bobbie57
Feb 15, 2010 07:21am

In 1962 my husband and I had recently purchased a house in Levittown on Long Island. Mostly because it was in easy commuting distance from his work and because we could afford it. My children were 3 and 1.
It wasn't until later that I learned that the original residents of Levittown (late 1940s and up to 1952 models) had been required to sign restrictive covenants. This was legal then. That means that they had by contract agreed that they would not sell their homes to people of color.

So by 1962 the racism was more hidden. But as I was one of those people who worked on these issues this book just eats my heart out.

Barbara

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message 7: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 15, 2010 04:31pm

Bobbie57 wrote: "In 1962 my husband and I had recently purchased a house in Levittown on Long Island. Mostly because it was in easy commuting distance from his work and because we could afford it. My children were ..."

Barbara, you and my dad could talk up a storm about this. Don't get him started on Levittown. He talks about how working class whites in Philly were offered low interest mortgages that enabled them to move into new suburban developments like Levittown, mortgages that weren't available to blacks.

I am thankful to the people like you who have spoken out on racial discrimination. It is so much easier to stay silent, and so harmful.

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message 8: by Kay
Feb 27, 2010 04:19am

Kay Just finished chapter 17 this morning. This portion of the book is certainly interesting as Skeeter/Eugenia finally begins to see that she is traveling down a dangerous path - more dangerous for Minny and Aibelene than for her. They could lose everything; Skeeter could lose her social status . . .

I think the author describes the pull that Minny and Aibelene have to tell their stories despite the dangers involved. It helps them feel like they are doing something to change the course of the lives of the next generation. Plus, I imagine it helps them the way it helps any of us who bare our souls about the troubles we are facing in life. It is surprising that Yule May also wants to tell her story now, and I wonder how many others will eventually talk with Skeeter?

In this section of the book, too, we find out that Celia is, in fact, a drunk. I'm still wondering why some who've read this book came to like her . . .

I find myself thinking about the characters from time to time as if they are real people . . . and I can't wait to read more.
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message 9: by Bobbie57
Feb 27, 2010 05:46am

Poor Celia is a victim of her upbringing. I don't exactly like her but I have sympathy for her.
And I agree with everything else you say -- hope you keep reading.

Barbara

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message 10: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 27, 2010 06:31am

Kay wrote: "In this section of the book, too, we find out that Celia is, in fact, a drunk. I'm still wondering why some who've read this book came to like her . . ..."

Keep reading, Kay. More will be revealed about Celia's motivations. For me, she was never entirely sympathetic, but as Barbara said she is a victim of her own upbringing that causes her to be an outsider in a way other than racial, and it caused me to bond with her a little more than I bonded with the others in the class she married into.
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message 11: by Alias Reader
Feb 27, 2010 11:08am

Kay wrote: "Just finished chapter 17 this morning. This portion of the book is certainly interesting as Skeeter/Eugenia finally begins to see that she is traveling down a dangerous path - more dangerous for M..."
-------------------

I am enjoying reading your comments, Kay.

I just want to say that I am putting up the threads for our next read, but that doesn't mean the discussion needs to stop for this or any of our other past reads.

** Re-posting to consolidate discussion to one thread.


message 2: by Bobbie57
Feb 11, 2010 06:34am

I'm not sure where this fits in so I am posting much later on maybe than necessary.
But -- just wanted to say that I don't think Skeeter realized the true danger of what she was doing until she herself was physically threatened.

Barbara

--------------------------------
<

Bobbie57--Barbara: It occurs to me that she didn't realize how dangerous it was until she herself was physically threated. I'm sorry if I am going to far because I don't know anymore where it was in the chapters -- but what I mean is when she was stopped by a policeman I think asking her where she was going in a threatening way.

Barbara

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message 4: by Carol/Bonadie (last edited Feb 14, 2010 09:57pm)
Feb 14, 2010 09:53pm

Spoilers to page 294, Chapter 23

Funny, I didn't view the policeman incident as being all that threatening to Skeeter. When I first read the statement I thought she'd been roughed up or something. I'll have to go back and re-read to see if I missed her reaction to it, and maybe I'm comparing it to the other violent acts in the book.

A lot has happened in these chapters, and I'm reallly finding this book hard to put down. I was wondering how the thing with Stuart was going to unfold with her not telling him about The Project. It appears that decision is now irrelevant with him backing out of the picture. Hilly's treatment of her maid, causing her to be arrested, was heartbreaking, although it did galvanize the rest of the maids to speak up. I wonder if this book will ever be published?
The incident with the toilets on the lawn was a big hoot, it completely surprised me. Skeeter may be naive but she also has courage, I'll give her that. We are heading to a big showdown with Hilly, I just hope no one else gets hurt. Mr. Leefolt's conversation with Aibileen was chilling, where he said he didn't want her talking with Skeeter any more. And it was the crafty way he led up to it, talking about how she changed jobs a lot and her ability to move on when kids got to the age she was ready to leave them depended on her being able to get good references. The intimidation always just under the surface is something to think about.

It was also interesting to see how Stockett introduced some ambivalence to the overt racism, in the form of Skeeter's father objecting to the lynching of the man who dissed the Governor, and Stuart's father also expressing some curiosity about whether the man's statements might have some validity.

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message 5: by Bobbie57
Feb 15, 2010 07:25am

I do love Skeeter's courage. The toilets were a wonderful comic touch.
I might have internalized the feeling that Skeeter felt threatened.
But I do think the incident pointed up that what she was doing was more fraught with danger than she had imagined.

Tomorrow is my F2F discussion on this book. I can't wait to tell you all how it turns out.

Barbara
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message 6: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 15, 2010 04:35pm

Bobbie57 wrote: "Tomorrow is my F2F discussion on this book. I can't wait to tell you all how it turns out.
..."

I would love to hear how that discussion goes, tell all, Barbara!

==============================

message 7: by Richiesheff
Feb 19, 2010 07:32am

Well I have held off posting, as I am just not good at this, but I have finally reached a poing where I don't want to put it down.

I have great admiration for Skeeter. I grew up around this time in a small midwest time, and I truly don't remember any of this happening. I remember mom and dad talking about it, but that was about it. I think unless you were in a larger area, or a "southern" area, you were pretty much isolated. I had several black kids in my high school and there was never a time when we werent friends with them.

I do think Hilly should be ashamed of the way she has treated the help and I am hoping something is done or happens to wake her up.

I think, if the book could have started 20 or 30 pages later and have done away with the "dialect" I would have enjoyed it from the beginning. I had to start the book over 3 times before I just made myself read thru it.

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message 8: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
Feb 19, 2010 10:43am

Richiesheff wrote: "I think, if the book could have started 20 or 30 pages later and have done away with the "dialect" I would have enjoyed it from the beginning.."

I could not agree more about the dialect. I hate it. Not just in this book, but in any.


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message 9: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 19, 2010 09:29pm

Richiesheff wrote: "I think, if the book could have started 20 or 30 pages later and have done away with the "dialect" I would have enjoyed it from the beginning. I had to start the book over 3 times before I just made myself read thru it.
..."

I was discussing this with my dentist yesterday. His wife loved The Help but when he tried to read it he couldn't make it past the beginning because of the dialect. I hated it too, but I encouraged him to read past it. I don't know if she dropped the technique or it just became background to me, but while I remember noticing it every now and then, after awhile it no longer got in my way of enjoying the read.

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message 10: by Richiesheff
Feb 19, 2010 09:42pm

No, I think she really dropped it later in the book. I have not had any problems since earlier in the book.

*** Re-posting to consolidate all the posts into one thread



message 11: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
Feb 19, 2010 09:49pm

I do not remember the dialect being dropped, but I read it ages ago.

Writing for Ms. Magazine, Erin Aubry Kaplan wonders, "Why must blacks speak dialect to be authentic? Why are Stockett's white characters free of the linguistic quirks that white Southerners certainly have?"

The Christian Science Monitor notes the same problem, wondering about the "decision to convey only black voices in dialect, with nary a dropped 'g' among her generally less sympathetic Southern white characters."
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message 12: by Carol/Bonadie (last edited Feb 20, 2010 05:40am)
Feb 20, 2010 05:39am

JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "I do not remember the dialect being dropped, but I read it ages ago.

Writing for Ms. Magazine, Erin Aubry Kaplan wonders, "Why must blacks speak dialect to be authentic? Why are Stockett's white characters free of the linguistic quirks that white Southerners certainly have?"

The Christian Science Monitor notes the same problem, wondering about the "decision to convey only black voices in dialect, with nary a dropped 'g' among her generally less sympathetic Southern white characters." ..."

These are REALLY good questions I would love to have Kathryn Stockett address.

I stayed up until 2:00 this morning finishing this book, and I'm so glad we read it together; I wouldn't have read it otherwise. I thought it was a great read from a dramatic point of view, and I am really glad for the attittudes of the time to be laid out so clearly. I think it must be so hard for people under a certain age to have a clue what living under Jim Crow must have been like, and understand why people didn't just "rebel". I think this goes some way to making it clear how insidious and all encompassing white supremacy was in certain parts of the country, and how difficult it was not only for blacks, but for whites, to step back and imagine a world free from it, much less buck the system.

I found Stockett's "coda" interesting. I had just been emailing my friend Sherry about the dichotomy of a current day Southerner who both loves her home and heritage and is compelled to defend it against criticism from outsiders, and at the same time feels shame about aspects of that history. The fiction of mystery/thriller author Greg Iles really brought this home for me. Stockett talks to this same dichotomy in her coda.


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message 13: by Bobbie57
Feb 20, 2010 12:10pm

I promised to report on my F2F book club. Sorry it has taken me a few days but I have had a hectic week.

So most of the people liked the book, but one or two didn't. But then they qualified it by saying that they liked it, but thought it could have been even better.

There were some questions as to how Skeeter could have stayed friends with Hilly and the other women. I think the clearest answer to that was stated by someone who said she regarded it as a book of awakening of the Skeeter character. I think that is fair and is reflected in some of our own comments regarding that she was naive in the beginning and didn't realize the danger that she was putting them all into.

We also discussed the importance of laying out the background of the period. The description of the sit-in demonstrations at the lunch counter and the bus boycotts are instructive to those who are younger.
==================================

message 14: by Bobbie57
Feb 20, 2010 12:13pm

Oh, I forgot to add -- it appears that there has been some criticism of the book as it is a white author writing in the voice of black characters.

Any thoughts on this?? As for me it is Skeeter's story. And it isn't as if I haven't read books written by men with the main character being a woman.
I haven't any problem with it.

Barbara

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message 15: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 20, 2010 09:21pm

Bobbie57 wrote: "Oh, I forgot to add -- it appears that there has been some criticism of the book as it is a white author writing in the voice of black characters.

Any thoughts on this?? ..."

To me, the proof is in the pudding on this question. Does it work? In my opinion it did; I thought the characters were completely believable and authentic-sounding. There is no rule that whites shouldn't be allowed to write black characters.

However, I really, really want an answer to the question JoAnn posed from a critic, about why she chose to write the black characters speaking in their own vernacular but not write the white characters in theirs.

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message 16: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
Feb 20, 2010 09:47pm

Carol/Bonadie wrote: "
However, I really, really want an answer to the question JoAnn posed from a critic, about why she chose to write the black characters speaking in their own vernacular but not write the white characters in theirs..."

Carol, this is all I could find...an interview with the author --

Did you worry about the implications of being a young, white author writing in the thick dialect of African Americans?

STOCKETT: I'm still worried about that. On the one hand I wonder, Was this really my story to tell? On the other hand, I just wanted the story to be told. But the truth is that I didn't think anybody was going to read it. Had I known it was going to be so widely disseminated I probably wouldn't have written it in the type of language that I did.
========================
I guess this refers to the fact that this book was rejected by 60 publishers, so the author thought no one would ever read it.

I saw a lot of criticism of the dialect being too heavy handed, incorrect, etc.

She probably would have been better off with no dialect.

None of which answers the question of why the white women did not speak in dialect.

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message 17: by Lynne in PA/Lineepinee
Feb 21, 2010 09:42am

I too noticed the lack of 'written' black dialect, but in my head I 'heard' it when the maids were talking, just as I 'heard' the southern accent in the other characters. I can't say that happens to me with every accent in every book, however.

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message 18: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
Feb 21, 2010 11:18am

Lynne in PA/Lineepinee wrote: "I too noticed the lack of 'written' black dialect, but in my head I 'heard' it when the maids were talking, just as I 'heard' the southern accent in the other characters. I can't say that happens t..."

Lynne, what do you mean by "written black dialect"? I read this long ago, but could swear that all of the maids' speech was written in dialect.

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message 19: by Kay
Feb 28, 2010 01:38pm

Kay I just finished chapter 26 - the book certainly covered a lot of ground in these chapters.

Interesting that Celia was not a lazy drunk as she had seemed to be - rather, she was a woman who was using a home remedy (in bottles that looked like they could be moonshine) and staying off her feet in hopes of not having yet another miscarriage. How sad . . . like much of what the author writes about, things are often not what they seem on the surface.

Hilly is such an awful person. I did find it surprising that Hilly getting Yule May sent to prison seemed to galvanize (I like that word, Carol) more black women to talk with Skeeter. Skeeter was surprised, too. Shows just how much courage those women have to step forward when they could lose so very much.

The "chocolate" pie incident is so disgusting - and yet, given Minny's prickly personality and her tendency to simply not take any harassment from anyone, it's entirely believable. I liked the fact that Hilly's mother was so amused by it - I'm sure she felt her daughter had it coming.

After having gotten this far in the book, I am amazed to be finding Celia quite the fascinating character now. She showed courage in fighting off the pervert who came into her own yard with a fire poker (protecting Minny), and also in repeatedly reaching out to the women in her community that were snubbing her. She created quite a scene at The Benefit, simply by being herself (OK, a drunken self in this incident) and seeking to bridge the gap between her and Hilly. Once she heard Minny's pie story, I think the scales came off her eyes and she saw things a lot more clearly. This got her off her feet and working in the garden, even chopping down the hated Mimosa tree. I took that as a sign that Celia was ready to make the place her own, and stop acting like a visitor in her husband's home. I also liked how in effect she took sides with Minny by writing the "2-slice Hilly" comment on the check she wrote to the Junior League.

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message 20: by Carol/Bonadie
Feb 28, 2010 05:01pm

Kay wrote: "After having gotten this far in the book, I am amazed to be finding Celia quite the fascinating character now. ..."

Kay, Celia was one character about whom I wanted to know more. The romantic in me wanted to hear the tale of her romance with Johnny and how he came to decide to marry her and bring her back to his home with the toxic Hilly nearby. But that's a story for another day, I guess.
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message 21: by Alias Reader
Feb 28, 2010 05:07pm

Kay, even though I was not able to get the book, from the library, I am enjoying reading your insightful comments on The Help.

I see you are also reading, American Sphinx: The Character of Thomas Jefferson with the History Bd. I took a pass on that, but I do plan on joining them for Guns, Germs & Steel in Sept.

The GR History bd is terrific. There are a few history buffs here, too.

==================================*

message 22: by Richiesheff
Mar 01, 2010 08:36am

Richiesheff I had to laugh, as I had an appointment last week with my Cardiologist and he said his wife wanted him to read the Help. I told him I wasnt pleased with the book, but that I was glad that I read it. I told him I liked the 2nd half better than the beginning.

***Reposting to consolidate the discussion for this book into a single thread.


Message 2: by Lynne in PA/Lineepinee
Feb 09, 2010 08:16am

I didn't really want to take the time to read the boards about this book. I was too engrossed. Like Jan, I was a little put off by the inaccurate details, but the author acknowledged them and left them in the book anyway. I guess the book ended about as I expected. The one thing I was hoping for was that the pie wasn't really 'doctored' after all. I guess it is my 'always wanting a happy ending syndrome.

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message 3: by Bobbie57
Feb 09, 2010 11:37am

I think that some of the "happy" ending might have been happy for just a moment. I am more anxious about the possibilities for Minny and Abileen going forward.

I thought the story of the pie was a bit much. I'm not even sure what I want to say about that. Perhaps the possibilities would have been as good as the reality. After all -- in one sense the "joke" of the second pie was more potent than the original actual eating of the first one. It didn't have to be doctored you could just think it was or say it was.

Next week is my F2F book club on this book. I can't wait to hear what they have to say about it.

Barbara

==============================

message 4: by Richiesheff
Feb 20, 2010 08:47pm
I just finished it and I am not sure I really liked it. I am glad I read it, but just didnt quite understand it. I also really disliked the ending.

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message 5: by Bobbie57
Feb 21, 2010 05:34am
I didn't particularly like the ending. It was an ending of the moment. What I mean is that I felt that there was going to be a lot of trouble to follow particularly for Abileen and Minny.
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message 6: by Sherry (sethurner)
Feb 23, 2010 05:55am

I chose not to comment here because I read back last summer and then gave me copy to a friend. But our face to face group meets tonight to discuss The Help, and reading your discussion here has helped me remember what I liked and disliked about the novel. My prediction is that my local ladies will have loved every bit of the book.
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message 7: by Kay
Mar 02, 2010 09:06am

Kay I finished reading the book this morning. I was actually pretty satisfied with the ending. Yes, there may be more trouble ahead for all three of the main characters, Aibelene, Minny and Skeeter. But on the other hand, they are all 3 set to embark on new chapters that could be much more positive.
--Skeeter gets a new job as a copy editor assistant in the city where she really wants to live, and in the industry she desires. Instead of facing a friendless Jackson, she'll make new friends who perhaps have a mindset more similar to hers.
--Aibelene has a secret talent for writing. Now she will get her chance with the Miss Myrna column. And who knows what else - she'll already have a networking contact in Miss Skeeter.
--Minny is done with being beaten up by Leroy. She is fairly well assured of a long-term job (as much as any person can be, really). And for her, as well as the other people involved in the book, there is the prospect of more money to come.

I still dislike that whole dialect thing that we talked about in the discussion of the early chapters. And I do wonder why it stopped with the African-American women - surely, the white society women had a southern drawl? But overall, the book touched my emotions and the characters either got under my skin or into my soul. It resonated with me, somehow.

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message 8: by Carol/Bonadie
Mar 06, 2010 01:08pm

Kay wrote: "But overall, the book touched my emotions and the characters either got under my skin or into my soul. It resonated with me, somehow. ..."

And that, Kay, is the perfect summary for this book, it echoes my feelings as well.

=================================

message 9: by Bobbie57
Mar 07, 2010 05:56am

Yes, Kay and Carol, I agree that is the perfect summary for this book.

Barbara
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message 10: by Richiesheff
Mar 07, 2010 08:24am
There are some similarities in the book Saving Cee Cee Huneycutt. I didnt realize how alike they were until I started reading it. It does not have the dialect, but has some similar ideas. This was a debut novel by Beth Hoffman. I think if you liked the Help you will really enjoy this one.

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message 11: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
Mar 07, 2010 11:01am

Richiesheff wrote: "There are some similarities in the book Saving Cee Cee Huneycutt. I didnt realize how alike they were until I started reading it. It does not have the dialect, but has some similar ideas. ."

you are so right. I actually liked CeeCee and not only because I dislike reading dialect. I felt that some of the situations in The Help were not completely accurate....I am not even sure that "accurate" is the right word, but some of it just seemed forced, as if the author had points to make and had to "fit" them into the book, whether they really fit or not.

The white women in CeeCee certainly were portrayed in a vastly different light than those in The Help, weren't they? CeeCee's white women were (mostly) strong and caring and capable. I felt Hoffman stayed away from caricatures a lot more than Stockett did.
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message 12: by Richiesheff
Mar 07, 2010 03:10pm

Well said JoAnn. I have less han 100 pages to go, but I have sure enjoyed the whole book. I have really laughed at parts (ie the bra).

*** Re-posting to consolidate discussion into a single thread

message 23: by Madrano
Jun 21, 2011 08:46am


At last i got hold of a copy of this book. I tried when the group read it but was living in Queens at the time & the waiting lists were too long. Same in Dallas. ANYway, at last i read it. I didn't realize the discussion was in three parts, but i'm just going to post in this one, rather than read all the other threads/parts.

On this page, though, i noticed the dialect issue was discussed. To be honest with you, i barely noticed it, which is odd for me. However, i realized as i read it that there were many uses of language i use without actually giving it much thought, so perhaps this is why. An example is using "a" for "of", as in "the people a Jackson..." I do that! It's really a dropping off of the "f" but Stockett expressed it as an a instead of an "o". And i think she is more correct.

Contrarily, i didn't notice the lack of dialect for the white women. Hmmm. Dropping "g"s is what i notice most. I think the ball was dropped on that, particularly in the editing, which probably illustrates some sort of bias or something on their part, not to get too deeply into it.

I liked the story very much and felt that telling the story from three characters was an excellent choice. Curiously, though, Celia, not one of the three narrators, was the most interesting character, imo. (For those who forgot, she's the one from Sugar Ditch, who dressed like Marilyn Monroe.) I cared more about what happened to her than the others. Naturally that storyline didn't continue throughout the book the way it did initially but i was disappointed in that, nonetheless.

When i'd put the book down, i was always eager to return, having thought about the characters & their circumstance in the meanwhile. One thing which surprised me was that i felt the book was almost a mini-thriller after the book was published & the town's white people began reading it. I guess i saw more shadows lurking in the dark than the characters did. I honestly expected something fairly violent.

It was interesting that there was not much prejudice expressed by the few male characters. Perhaps this was to extend the tension, wondering if Stuart, Skeeter's beau, was a segregationist, for example. It might be hard to present Hilly's husband that way because we'd presume his friend Stuart felt the same way.

ANYway, i'm glad i read it & am grateful to the group for voting on it as a group read. As so often happens when i try one of those selected, i have liked the book.

deborah

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message 24: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
Jun 21, 2011 08:51am


Another criticism of THE HELP, which I read after I finished the book, was that the author totally polarized her characters. Most of the black women were almost saintly while most of the white women were witchy. I noticed this while reading it too, but never verbalized it.

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message 25: by Alias Reader
21 hours, 0 min ago


I'll be reading this at the end of July for a f2f group read.

I look forward to reading all the posts.

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message 26: by Bobbie57
18 hours, 59 min ago


JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "Another criticism of THE HELP, which I read after I finished the book, was that the author totally polarized her characters. Most of the black women were almost saintly while most of the white wome..."

It has been a long time since we read this -- but what immediately came to my mind was the "pie". Nothing particularly saintly there.
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message 27: by Julie
17 hours, 51 min ago


JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "Most of the black women were almost saintly while most of the white women were witchy. I noticed this while reading it too, but never verbalized it. ..."

It's been a long time....but I don't think I got that impression. I think the blacks just held their feelings in more and the whites were...bolder with them?

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message 28: by JoAnn/QuAppelle
14 hours, 30 min ago


I agree about the pie, Bobbie!

Most of the white women were portrayed as frivolous, nasty, lazy, detached from their children, etc. while most of the black women were self-sacrificing, loyal, dependable, and hard-working.


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message 29: by Madrano
3 hours, 8 min ago


JoAnn/QuAppelle wrote: "Another criticism of THE HELP, which I read after I finished the book, was that the author totally polarized her characters. Most of the black women were almost saintly while most of the white women were witchy. I noticed this while reading it too, but never verbalized it. ..."

I didn't see them that way. What i saw was that most of the white women lived their lives in fear of Hilly. Even before the group's book was published we had that sense but afterward, when Hilly ordered others to get rid of their help, none did. I never saw Celia as mean-spirited, either.

I do not equate being unwilling to stand up to Hilly with being witchy. In fact, i felt that was one of the strong points in the book. The idea that one influential person can help maintain an unfair status quo was well presented. It would be true of the male side of this issue, too.

I also didn't think Milly was presented as a good person, either. It was clear she had anger issues, despite trying to control them. It's true that her motives were praised by Aibileen, though.

I also didn't see Skeeter, the major white character, as being portrayed that way, either. Although, even when she pulled the toilet prank she missed the friendships lost. My sole dismay with her is not realizing her mother's illness for what it was. Even then, though, it's mentioned that she probably didn't want to see it, which makes sense to me. Ulcers explained things enough.

By virtue of the fact that the women had help, it might seem the white women were lazy. Other than Elizabeth, the one who was written as though she really had detachment problems with her daughter, i felt the others loved & cared for their kids. It would be easy to leave them with the help but often it was mentioned that they didn't, even though sometimes the help was taken along to "see to" the kids.

I can't agree with the critic's description of the white women, although i can see what she means about the portrayal of the African American women. All the above is me "thinking out loud" on the criticism. I'll have to consider it more. At this point i'd just say i didn't see it that way.

deborah

I've taken the various threads for this novel and consolidate it into a single thread.

I am out of order here but I was reading the comments on the book since I read it awhile back and was surprised by this one:

Bobbie57
In 1962 my husband and I had recently purchased a house in Levittown on Long Island. Mostly because it was in easy commuting distance from his work and because we could afford it. My children were 3 and 1.
It wasn't until later that I learned that the original residents of Levittown (late 1940s and up to 1952 models) had been required to sign restrictive covenants. This was legal then. That means that they had by contract agreed that they would not sell their homes to people of color.
So by 1962 the racism was more hidden. But as I was one of those people who worked on these issues this book just eats my heart out.

As a former owner of a Levitt home in NJ, I was really shocked to learn that. I looked up the history of the Levittown project and came across this quote:
"The early Levittowns also had an ugly secret: no black families allowed. "As a Jew, I have no room in my mind or heart for racial prejudice," Levitt insisted in 1954. "But, by various means, I have come to know that if we sell one house to a Negro family, then 90 to 95 percent of our white customers will not buy into the community. That is their attitude, not ours."

One black couple, Bill and Daisy Meyers, was daring enough to buy a Levittown, Pa. house in 1957. They were met by rock-throwers, bomb threats and mobs screaming racist taunts at them. It seemed like the bland facade of middle-class conformity was peeling away — to reveal hatred and fear underneath.

The Levittown "whites-only" policy eventually yielded to political pressure and lawsuits. Levittown, Pa. now has a mere fraction of blacks — just 1.5 percent — but Willingboro is split almost evenly between black and white. In a twist on ‘50s policy, real-estate agents now tout Willingboro's peaceful diversity as an attractive reason to move."

http://www.capitalcentury.com/1951.html

I don't know whether or not the Levittown policy yielded to political pressure so much as it became illegal by federal law to discriminate in housing. There is still a tiny percentage of blacks. I hear that there is a reasonable number of Hispanics but I honestly don't know what is meant by that.

I suppose that today the lack of diversity may also be attributed to financial circumstances rather than racism.

I just read this book at the beginning of the month and really liked it. From my limited perspective, I thought it did a great job of capturing the tensions and the often unfair treatment the maids had to take from their employers for fear of losing their jobs. I especially enjoyed Minnie for her tongue and that even in knowing it would get her in trouble, there were times when she just couldn't stay silent.

I also thought that the facade that the white women had to continue to put up, even when their secret, behind the scenes worlds were put up for public viewing was very typical of the times and wanting to appear as a perfect family. I have to wonder if a Hispanic version of this story today would come out much the same -- perhaps not with the same predices, but with the same 'everything for appearance's sake' ideas.

Retiring as of July first, I'd like to come back "home" soon, yet the protocols have changed here, on this web site. Old or new friends, please advise as to how to best navigate this site. I read "The Help" when it first came out and have plenty to say. Being a Southern child of the fifties, and having lived closely with wonderful women of color during that time period, in addition to having remarkably modern relationships with African-American peers who outshine me in every venue of the teaching profession, I am most interested in discussing this book within the time context, social framework, and authorial validity. I just don't know how to resume posting here and where to start with the group. Help me, please. All comments welcomed. Roe

Welcome, back, Roe. :)

Congratulations on retirement.

I am not sure what your question is.

We have Folders for various topics.
Within each Folder you will see threads.
We try to use the existing threads or the boards gets too hard to navigate.

As for the discussion on The Help. It was a Group Read that took place Feb. 2010. It's come up again because Deborah has just read the book. I'm reading it next month for a f2f group read.

I am sure the group would love to hear your thoughts. Just jump right on in and post about it in this thread.

You will also see we have a Folder of FAQ on how to use GoodReads.

Again, great to have you back. You were missed. :)

Roe/eorwiles wrote: "Retiring as of July first, I'd like to come back "home" soon, yet the protocols have changed here, on this web site. Old or new friends, please advise as to how to best navigate this site. I read "..."

Awhile back, when my book group discussed "The Help", I was really surprised to learn that a lot of the practices in the book were common. The woman who hosted the event actually had the same silver pattern, as the one used in the book, and served with it. As a joke, she made a special chocolate cake...we were not allowed to eat! lol
For me, brought up in a Jewish Ghetto, I was pretty much totally unaware of most of what was going on in the South until Martin Luther King was able to expose it more fully to the general public. Truthfully, it disgusted me.

Revisionist history condemns and blames, yet culture as it was in every society from the dawn of time "was what it was". I think it facile for 21st century folks to apply 21st century standards and sensibilities to prior history. Far better to learn from the past than to castigate blame and indictment . IMO. Think of Christopher Columbus, who is now denigrated for ravaging Native Americans. As 21st century citizens, we have a responsibility for noting the past, not changing it or adding our two cents to the mix.

Roe/eorwiles wrote: "Revisionist history condemns and blames, yet culture as it was in every society from the dawn of time "was what it was". I think it facile for 21st century folks to apply 21st century standards and..."

It's good to see you here, Roe.

Thank You, Sherry. I guess i'll have to learn all over again. My brother in Greensboro in a very nice older neighborhood just redid his basement, and he saved the shower and toilet area once reserved for the help. There is much truth in the novel, The Help, and few lies. Some of us white-bread-bred people were activists in the early sixties, jumping on both the anti Vietnam bandwagon and aligning with the Civil Rights movement.

Roe/eorwiles wrote: "Revisionist history condemns and blames, yet culture as it was in every society from the dawn of time "was what it was". I think it facile for 21st century folks to apply 21st century standards and..."
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I haven't read the book yet, Roe. Would you categorize the book as revisionist history?

First let's define our terms. What is Revisionist history?

Here are a few on-line definitions.
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Revisionist history carries both positive and negative connotations. Each has its own entry.

Historical revisionism, the reinterpretation of orthodox views on evidence, motivations, and decision-making processes surrounding a historical event

Historical revisionism (negationism), either the legitimate scholastic re-examination of existing knowledge about an historical event, or the illegitimate distortion of the historical record such that certain events appear in a more or less favourable light

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Revision...
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re·vi·sion·ism (r-vzh-nzm)
n.
1. Advocacy of the revision of an accepted, usually long-standing view, theory, or doctrine, especially a revision of historical events and movements.

2. A recurrent tendency within the Communist movement to revise Marxist theory in such a way as to provide justification for a retreat from the revolutionary to the reformist position.

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/revi...
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In historiography, historical revisionism is the reinterpretation of orthodox views on evidence, motivations, and decision-making processes surrounding a historical event. Though the word "revisionism' is sometimes used in a negative way, constant revision of history is part of the normal scholarly process of writing history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historic...
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Historical revisionism is the reexamination of the accepted "facts" and interpretations of history, with an eye towards updating it with newly discovered, more accurate, and less biased information. Broadly, it is a skeptical approach, that history as it has been traditionally told may not be entirely accurate,and that perhaps an accurate history is as unobtainable as a dispassionate autobiography.

While reinterpreting past events in light of new facts is the essence of good scholarship, corrupt history may distort these facts as a means of influencing readers' beliefs and actions for politically motivated reasons.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Revi...