Jane Austen discussion

This is a pretty good natural break in the story, ending as the Hale family travels toward Milton in northern England.

We can discuss the story by sections and create a thorough discussion I think.

We begin the story by learning that Margaret Hale has grown up largely in her well-to-do aunt's house in London. After reading through the next few chapters, I just start to wonder how the separation from her parents has really affected her relationship with her parents.

You know, Sarah, I don't know if we can speculate on the "changes in her relationship with her parents" from the information provided; but it seems to me that both of her parents come to depend upon her judgment to a great degree, especially her father. Having said that though, it seems that her mother, at this stage, is still more confidential with Dixon. Margaret's father, on the other hand, I think really does value his daughter's opinions and recommendations.

I am sure that Margaret has returned from her aunt's house with a greater sense of maturity and sense of self-worth as a young woman assuming her place in society and role as the daughter of a parson in a small rural town.

Margaret seems to have developed her own perspectives in her Aunt's care. She doesn't seem to be like others in her surroundings there. We know she feels a liking for Henry Lennox because they seemed to understand each other -- and maybe no one else understood Margaret. (aren't these modern issues for a novel of this time?)

Have the years at her aunt's helped her to be prepared for the sudden responsibilities after her return to the parsonage? Maybe growing up in someone else's house, a little bit the outsider, has formed some of the character of this girl.

Yes, the communication in the parsonage is interesting. Dixon and Mrs. Hale, Marg. and her father. Do you think it was confidence in Margaret that led Mr. Hale to task her with telling Mrs. Hale about his resignation, OR do you think it was lack of confidence in himself as he faces this massive thing he is doing?

Chris, I have to say I am behind on looking at your comments. Have been in and out a lot, and will look by at your comment in the other thread soon. Looking forward to it!

Sarah, I absolutely believe that Mr. Hale can't bring himself to sit down and break the news to his, and therefore asks Margaret to do it for him. I think that he thinks that his wife is always just a bit disappointed in him, with the Living that he was offered and accepted, and the lack of a more substantive life-style. I'm not sure that Mrs Hale is really all that disappointed though, but it is what he thinks. He does know though, that Mrs Hale will be devastated to leave Helstone and move north!

I believe that the points of the plot are so well entwined in this beginning section of the novel. Because I can't separate talking of Hale's faith issue without thinking how well the situation creates a change in Margaret that the flows through the rest of the novel. At the point of his decision to leave his ministry, Margaret seems to take on the role as female head of house.

Other things within this section that stand out to me:
1. Margaret's difficulty in coming to terms with her own adulthood and being a woman who is now attracting the interest of men.
2. The world of the manufacturers enters the story, as Hale describes his first knowledge of John Thornton.
3. Margaret begins to examine the world she has known, as this section closes, she thinks to herself of the whirling life of London which has no room for sympathy and silence of feeling.

I'm only about 40 pages in, but so far this is just a beautiful novel. I love that we have a woman who is intelligent, independently-minded, doesn't fall for the first man who proposes, and isn't described as hard to look at. The writing is fabulous. I only had a few minutes, but wanted to start it and got lost in the book before I knew what happened!

I'm a bit confused, though, about Mr. Hale's departure from the church. Seems to be an issue of conscience? Does that sound right?

I believe you are right about Hale, Paula. When he knew he would have to make a re-confirmation of agreeing to follow the exact teachings of the church (when he went to become minister of a larger church), he couldn't do it. So from there, he knows their family will have to change drastically through his resigning.

I think this is another entire, interesting part of the N&S story. I am jumping ahead, but it seems the family was sure they would only be excepted in society after this in a totally different part of the country (the North).

I totally agree too, Paula. This novel has really drawn me in. This may be a strange word to use, but it is a very adult story. I am not meaning what that usually means in the 21st century either. ha ha

Paula wrote: "I'm only about 40 pages in, but so far this is just a beautiful novel. I love that we have a woman who is intelligent, independently-minded, doesn't fall for the first man who proposes, and isn't d..."

You've got the right of it, Paula; it is a matter of his conscience becoming reconciled with his personal faith. Interestingly, I think North and South is really about 'personal moments of crisis,' reconciliation and redemption -- A very Gaskellian theme.

By the bye, if you think the "writing is fabulous" in North and South, just wait until you read some of her later novels, e.g., Sylvia's Lovers or Wives and Daughters. Her style becomes much more elegant, mature, and sophisticated; but then, isn't that case for so many authors? Enjoy the novel, Paula! Cheers! Chris

Ugh - the amount of responsibility that Margaret needs to take on due to her parents' inability to adapt is astonishing to me! I understand that perhaps the father feels mentally and emotionally drained after making his decision to leave the church, but the fact that he not only expected Margaret to tell her mother, but then gave her a timeframe in which to do so is ridiculous. Own up to your decisions and loop in your wife!

This is one part of non-contemporary fiction that I always struggle with; the idea that the husband could and would just make these life-altering decisions that impacted the family and the family just needed to find a way to cope. If my fiance changed jobs, and that caused us to relocate, and he told me afterward, I would be irate!

On a side note, I really like the character of Margaret. She seems such a good person, very humble yet of proud character, realistic, smart, sensible... all kinds of good things. Plus, she's not at all obnoxious.

I wonder if we'll see Henry Lennox come back into the story, or if that was just a way for Gaskell to point to Margaret's realization that she is now an adult?

I am starting this read late, but I am going to jump right in the discussion anyway :)

Christopher wrote: "[...:] it seems to me that both of her parents come to depend upon her judgment to a great degree, especially her father. Having said that though, it seems that her mother, at this stage, is still more confidential with Dixon. Margaret's father, on the other hand, I think really does value his daughter's opinions and recommendations."

I completely agree Chris. What I find interesting is that the parents both seem so reliant on Margaret, and yet she hasn't been apart of the household for the last 10 years. She has spent "bright holidays" at Helstone, but London has been her home. Who has been running the parsonage if Margaret hasn't? Certainly not Mrs. Hale, whose main occupation is to bemoan her situation in life and pester her husband about his promotion; certainly not Mr. Hale, who devotes his time to his parishioners or studying his books. Looks like Dixon has been in charge, which is perhaps why she admires Margaret, and respects her and her authority as a result, when Margaret puts Dixon back in her place.

Christopher wrote: "...I think that he thinks that his wife is always just a bit disappointed in him, with the Living that he was offered and accepted, and the lack of a more substantive life-style. I'm not sure that Mrs Hale is really all that disappointed though, but it is what he thinks..."

I think Mr. Hale is all to familiar with Mrs. Hale's disappointment in him. He knows that the disgrace of leaving the church (from Mrs. Hale's perspective the disgrace seems more to do with a drop in social status going from from parson to tutor) will disappoint Mrs. Hale further. The poor man probably couldn't literally take any more of her chastisement while he is in such a sensitive state of mind. I think that Mrs. Hale would find a reason to be disappointed in anything! Perhaps it runs in the family; Margaret mentioned that her Aunt liked to be told what to do (ie doctors prescribing a winter in Italy) so that she could complain about all the things that had to be done, but all the while she was really doing precisely what she wished to do.

Jumping on the thread very late. Sorry!

I have questions so far -

1.) Same question Joy has - If Margaret hasn't been living at the parsonage who was taking care of everything. It seems that she comes back and everything is thrust upon her. How did her parents get on without her previously?

2.) Why is Mrs. Hale so disappointed in their living situation? Isn't it discussed that she was very pretty in her day and that she could have married anyone but married Mr. Hale? I'd like to think they married for love. If that is the case then she should have known that living as a minister's wife was not so very glamorous.

3.) Why is Margaret so proud? Is it because of her living in London? Her parents don't seem so prejudiced so I was wondering if anyone had any thoughts as to why she was like that.

Even though later, we find a different Margaret of course, but early on maybe she was influenced by Aunt Shaw and the upper class lifestyle. Margaret would never have been exposed to anything different. Which also ties in to your #2 -- I believe Mrs. Hale was something of a spoiled person and maybe didn't see the long term of living the life of a country vicar's family. I think Mrs Hale seems an older version of Edith. Possibly not raised to cope with very much, but then living with regret in adulthood.