Running, Track and Field discussion

Who is the greatest miler of all time? There are so many candidates. The current world record holder, with a stunning time of 3:43.13, is Hicham El Guerrouj of Morocco. American Jim Ryun held the record for nearly two decades. Alan Webb currently holds the American record of 3:46.91. Roger Bannister was the first to break the mystical 4:00 barrier. Sebastian Coe of the UK was known for a fierce kick and grueling training schedule. Australian Herb Elliott preceded Ryun as number one in the world. Filbert Bayi held the record briefly in the late 1970s, while Eamonn Coghlan was king of the indoor mile in the 1970s and 1980s. Steve Scott and Marty Liquori of the USA, and John Walker and Peter Snell of New Zealand, merit consideration.

In the past thirty-five years, the science of running has markedly improved the sport and reduced the times of premier runners. We know much more about nutrition, and exercise science has emerged as a separate academic discipline. Shoes are better made and facilitate faster times. Indeed, shoe companies actually pay runners large sums of money, enabling them to train full time rather than work at other jobs. The old dirt and cinder tracks have been replaced by special asphalt and other materials, resulting in faster racing surfaces. Considering the foregoing, Jim Ryun looms large as the greatest miler of all time, in my opinion. He had none of the modern advantages I mentioned, and yet he was dominant for many years.

All the milers you mentioned are good candidates for the honor of "greatest miler of all time", but there are a couple of others who probably should be thrown into the mix for discussion, notably Herb Elliot of Australia, who never lost a meet at the 1500/mile distance and was the Olympic Gold medal winner for the 1500 in 1960.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herb_Ell...

Some other names to possibly throw in the mix are Paavo Nurmi (WR holder for both 1500 and mile, as well as 1924 Gold Medalist at 1500) and Noureddine Morceli, 3 time World Championships winner and 1996 Gold Medalist at the distance. Morcelli was also the World Record holder for a time.

Having said all that, if pressed I'd probably have to agree with Doug's post regarding Jim Ryun. At his best, especially before he got hit with mononucleosis, I'd take a good look at him as the best ever...

Jim Fixx

I'm voting for Jim Ryun or Herb Elliot, though I have a real soft spot for American Glenn Cunningham. Meanwhile, can we talk Sebastian Coe and not reference his contemporary Steve Ovett?

Rick wrote: "Jim Fixx"

I think of James Fixx as the great popularizer of running in the 1970's, but I don't really think he's up there in the running with Ryun and Keino and company. Rick, are you serious? Or are you "joshing us" as my friends used to say?

Ben wrote: "I'm voting for Jim Ryun or Herb Elliot, though I have a real soft spot for American Glenn Cunningham. Meanwhile, can we talk Sebastian Coe and not reference his contemporary Steve Ovett?"

I have a soft spot for Glenn Cunningham too. My father, who passed away last week was a fan of Cunningham's. He told me how he overcame severe burns to become a champion miler and basically thought his life was a lesson in overcoming adversity.

And of course, you are right about Seb Coe and Steve Ovett. Don't forget during their heyday in the 1980's you also had Said Aouita and Steve Cram battling for championships right up there with them...

When I was in the fifth grade (spring of 1967), I read a story about Glenn Cunningham for school. Immediately, I was transfixed and have never forgotten the tale and how I felt when I read it.

When Glenn was nine years old, as he and his older brother lit the pot belly stove at their rural Kansas school, the stove exploded. Glenn's brother was killed, and Glenn lost most of his toes on both feet and a lot of muscles tissue on both legs. His mother stopped the doctor from amputating Glenn's legs. The few doctors he saw were convinced that he would not walk again.

Through the love of his parents, and pure grit and courage, Glenn went on to become a national champion and top international runner in the mile. His story inspired me to run the mile competitively starting the next year. I ran the mile in competition for many years.

Often near the end of the race when the lactic acid burned my legs, when my muscles screamed for me to stop, and breathing was painfully difficult, I thought about what Glenn Cunningham accomplished. Then I finished my race, and was fortunate to win many times.

Glenn Cunningham was a great man. Track was merely the context in which he demonstrated the best traits of which we humans are capable.

Sebastian Coe, Steve Ovett and Steve Cramm gave the world the best middle distance rivalry of the 1980s. Ben makes a good point.

Tell me: You guys are all runners, aren't you? Your knowledge is above average, to say the least.

I still like Ryun for the reasons I stated, and as a former miler myself.

Steven wrote: "All the milers you mentioned are good candidates for the honor of "greatest miler of all time", but there are a couple of others who probably should be thrown into the mix for discussion, notably H..."

Steve, is there any subject on which you don't have encyclopedic knowledge? As I tell my hockey players and track runners whom I coach, "UDAMAN!"

I'm a former high school and college runner and high school track coach. I really can't run any more due to foot injuries, but I do walk still. I was lucky to run cross country in college at Georgia State University in the '70's. They needed bodies since they didn't give scholarships and I was a willing runner, albeit not on the same level as a lot of my teammates.
It was a great experience though. One of the things I like about track is that you compete against yourself and your personal records as much as you do against other runners, so it's possible to be beaten by other runners and still feel good about your effort and your time.
In the '70's my heroes were Steve Prefontaine, John Walker, Rick Wolhunter and Lee Evans. I started out running the 400 and the 800 and gradually moved up.

Lol... thanks Douglas, as my wife will tell you, I have no practical skills whatsover. But I can tell folks about Alfred the Great or W.E.B. DuBois or what time Edwin Moses ran the 76 Olympic 400 hurdles in. All vitally useful information as I'm sure you'll agree. Just don't ask me what kind of mileage my car gets or how to repair a door hinge.
My mom always said I should go on Jeopardy...
Seriously though, I think we just happen to share some of the same interests, history, track, etc. I was a high school history teacher and track and wrestling coach for years.

Nice to see the reference to Pre. Pre, Alberto Salazar and Joachim Cruz are probably my all-time favorite runners. Wow, does that sound as dorky as I think it does?

I don't think it's dorky Ben, but then those are some of my favorite runners too. I'd forgotten about Joachim Cruz and how good he was, especially in 1984. Here's a video of Steve Cram and Cruz racing the 800 in 1985:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gnJ1_I...

Beautiful, that was great, and it brings back a lot of memories. We will need to talk running books on here at some point. Also, at the risk of offending anyone, its an awesome coincidence that you invited me to join this group today, because I have been working on a collection of essays exploring/riffing on the intersection of running and writing and the publisher wrote me this morning to say that he is looking to release the collection next month, something I hope you all will enjoy and potentially be willing to help me hype.

Your book sounds interesting Ben, I'd like to know when it comes out.
Getting back to our original topic of "who's the greatest miler of all time?" I'd like to throw out another possibility who some of you may have never heard of :
Walter Goodall George (9 September 1858 – 4 June 1943)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_G...

George was a runner whose main days of competition were in the 1880's. He ran a world record of 4:12 3/4 in 1886, a time which stood as the record for 30 years. He is also supposed to have run a time trial of4:10 1/5, a time which would not be bettered until 1931.
A couple of books which detail his story are:
The Milers by Cordner Nelson and Beer and Brine: The Making of Walter George, Athletics' First Superstar by Rob Hadgraft. The title of the latter refers to George's habit of bathing in brine because he thought it was healthy.

Ben, please keep us informed about the progress of your book, and let us know when it will be published. We all will benefit from and enjoy your collection of essays.

Like Steven and you, I too revered Pre. I also wore white racing cleats like John Walker's when I was running the mile in junior and senior high school; and even convinced my coach to have our uniforms black one year like the New Zealand national track team wears.

New Zealand during the 1970's and into the early '80's had some great distance runners. Besides Walker, there was Rod Dixon who was a champion 1500 man who moved up to the 5000 meters very successfully, Dick Quax who was a 10,000 meter runner and Jack Foster, a marathoner who was a champion runner at age 41! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jack_Foster
also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_Quax
also
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rod_Dixon

While looking up the links on this I came across a fact I had totally forgotten. Dixon was so versatile that he eventually moved up to the Marathon and won the New York City Marathon in 1983. Awesome...

Douglas wrote: "Ben, please keep us informed about the progress of your book, and let us know when it will be published. We all will benefit from and enjoy your collection of essays.

Like Steven and you, I too r..."

I think it's really cool you got your coach to switch to black uniforms for that year in high school by the way. The years I coached high school track were a lot of fun. I'm not involved in high school athletics any more, but I wonder if it's as much fun as it used to be, for both the kids and the coaches. I know there are a lot more rules and restrictions and most schools are bigger than they were when I was first starting, so I assume that fewer kids have the opportunity to be on teams. Still, I think any time a young person can be involved in an after school activity be it athletic or otherwise, it's usually a good thing. And of course I've stated that track is one of my favorite activities because everybody involved can feel like they're a winner in one way or another...

Along the same vein of discussion - the July, 2010 issue of Track and Field News has an article on who are the main and up and coming American milers at this time, along with a list of every American runner who has ever broken 4 minutes in the mile.
Of interest to me were a few facts,
- the 1st American to break 4 minutes was Don Bowden of the University of California who ran a 3:58.7 on 6/01/1957. He never ran any faster.
- as of 4/24/2010 348 American runners have run the mile in under 4 minutes at least once. The latest to add his name to the list is Steve Sodaro of the University of California, who ran a 3:59.42.
- Jim Ryun was the 13th American to break 4 minutes and the first High Schooler to do so when he ran 3:59.0 on 6/05/1964 in a race at Compton. He finished 4th in the race, behind 3 other Americans who were breaking 4 minutes for the 1st time - Archie San Romani, Jr. of the University of Oregon (3:57.6), Morgan Groth of Oregon State (3:57.9), and Bob Day of UCLA (3:58.9).
San Romani and Groth never improved their times, while Day and Ryun both did.
Anyway, the magazine is worth a look see if you can get ahold of a copy.

This is great, thanks, I will definitely be on the lookout for a copy. I also have to say, that as I read this post, I thought, I don't care how fast people get, even thinking about breaking four minutes will always be magical. Pretty cool.

I'm the same way Ben. I'm way impressed with Doug's 4:08. To run under 4:00 minutes is still way cool to me (in the lexicon of my youth). Heck I was happy when I broke 5 minutes!
This discussion does remind me however. Possibly one of the greatest performances of all time (that most people don't know of) was Daniel Kipngetich Komen of Kenya's 2 mile world record. On 7/19/1997 he ran a 7:58.61 - 1st mile in 3:59.2 and 2nd mile in 3:59.4. See the link below:
http://faculty.randolphcollege.edu/tm...

An upcoming mile race (the Bowerman Mile) at the Prefontaine Classic track meet which could set some records for fastest times run on American soil -
http://www.registerguard.com/csp/cms/...

Steve,

Thanks for the alert about the Track and Field News issue. I'll look for it.

In the meantime, can you tell us what the author wrote about Alan Webb (if anything)?

Here is the schedule link for the Prefontaine Classic. http://www.runnerspace.com/eprofile.p...

The Bowerman Mile will be run at 2:46 PDT on July 3.

Is this being televised?

Here is the line-up for the Bowerman Mile:

Asbel Kiprop (Kenya)
Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)
Haron Keitany (Kenya)
Bernard Lagat
Mohammed Moustaoui (Morocco)
Nicholas Kemboi (Kenya)
Leonel Manzano
Amine Laalou (Morocco)
Daniel Komen (Kenya)
Gebremedhin Mekonnen (Ethiopia)
Lopez Lomong
Lachlan Renshaw (Australia)--pace
Gideon Gathimba (Kenya)--pace

Where is Alan Webb? He set the American record in the mile only three years ago. Has he retired, or is he injured again?

Douglas wrote: "Here is the line-up for the Bowerman Mile:

Asbel Kiprop (Kenya)
Youssef Kamel (Bahrain)
Haron Keitany (Kenya)
Bernard Lagat
Mohammed Moustaoui (Morocco)
Nicholas Kemboi (Kenya)
Leonel Manzano
Ami..."

Here's an article on the Bowerman mile, focusing on Oregon runner Andrew Wheating:
http://www.universalsports.com/news/a...

Douglas wrote:
"Where is Alan Webb? He set the American record in the mile only three years ago. Has he retired, or is he injured again?"

The Track and Field news issue mentions Webb. Basically he is recovering from Achilles surgery and training under Alberto Salazar and the Oregon Elite group. I got the impression that they are taking it slow regarding his recovery and that while he is training, he won't be racing any time real soon. Perhaps not till next season?
I'll keep everyone posted as I find out more information.

Thanks, Steve, for the information on Alan Webb. As I stated in another post here today, he is a talented runner. I trust that we have not seen the last of him.

Ben wrote: "Beautiful, that was great, and it brings back a lot of memories. We will need to talk running books on here at some point. Also, at the risk of offending anyone, its an awesome coincidence that you..."

Ben,

How is your book coming? When and where will it be available for your fellow Group members to purchase? Will you kindly accept our request for autographed copies? You know that we will take an additional measure of pride since you are a fellow Group member!

I am looking forward to reading your work. The concept behind your book is unique and very interesting.

Best of luck with your efforts.

Douglas in South Carolina

Hey Doug,

Thanks for checking-in and your timing is great, we have been editing and formatting and all that and it looks like the collection will be released some time in the next two weeks.

Please note, that it is being released "Radiohead-style" through the publisher's website, i.e., a high-quality, pay what you want, e-version of the collection that will be available for upload to iPhones, Kindle's or your desktop.

I will let you know the official date though when I know it and thanks again for the interest.

Ben

I just completed Abel Kiviat, National Champion: Twentieth-Century Track & Field and the Melting Pot by Alan S. Katchen. I confess until I read about Mr. Kiviat, I had little knowledge of his significant contributions to track. And I am embarrassed for my past paucity of knowledge because I competed in at least two of the same races as Mr. Kiviat, the 880 and the mile.

Diminutive and non-athletic in appearance --- at five feet five inches and maybe 120 pounds --- Abel Kiviat was one of the most intelligent middle distance runners of his era. He was blessed with a legendary, devastating kick. When one reads accounts of Mr. Kiviat's races, especially his indoor and outdoor record-setting efforts, one realizes that he should be considered one of the great milers of all time.

Among his many achievements are the first world record holder in the 1500, and national champion at 600 yards, the mile, and 1,000 yards. Mr. Kiviat was honored by induction into the United States Track and Field Hall of Fame.

Alan S. Katchen's very good book Abel Kiviat, National Champion: Twentieth-Century Track & Field and the Melting Pot should go a long way to restoring Mr. Kiviat into consideration among the greatest milers of all time.

By the way, it is important to note the mile's status throughout the history of track as one of the "glamour" races, along with the 100 meter (formerly 100 yard) dash. Reading Abel Kiviat, National Champion: Twentieth-Century Track & Field and the Melting Pot reminded me of that fact.

Of course, that I competed in the mile (a long, long time ago and in a galaxy far, far away) has no bearing on my observation about the mile run's "glamour" status ....

Just a note to let fans of US runner Alan Webb know. He ran the equivalent of a sub 4 mile this weekend, so he appears to be coming back from injury. Here's the link:
http://www.letsrun.com/2010/alan-webb...
I'll probably set this thread up as it's own topic if that's ok.
Also of note, the world 800 meter record was broken for the 2nd time this year by Kenyan David Rudisha. He now has it down to 1:41.01 - Knocking on the door of 1:40 - which seems almost superhuman, since that's 2 50 second 440's or 400 meters back to back. Anyone who has ever run a 400 m or an 800 m will know what I'm talking about, I think.

Steven wrote: "Just a note to let fans of US runner Alan Webb know. He ran the equivalent of a sub 4 mile this weekend, so he appears to be coming back from injury. Here's the link:
http://www.letsrun.com/2010..."

Steve,

Thanks very much for update about Alan Webb and David Rudisha.

Yes, you are correct: 1:41 in the 800 is difficult to fathom. I ran that race (as the 880, which is almost equivalent in distance between yards and meters). I considered breaking 1:58 a major success!

I am glad to see Alan Webb doing well. He is an amazing runner, and is at an age when one would expect his best days as a miler behind him. Yet he keeps working very hard, and his competitive desire remains intense.

Thanks again, Steve.

I trust that you have been well.

Doug

The United States has a new miler who may become one of the best ever.

Andrew Wheating, who ran collegiately at Oregon, completed his four years of NCAA eligibility in June and turned professional. Andrew was NCAA champion in the 1500 and 800 meters. At six feet six inches, he presents a formidable appearance with talent to match. In one of his first professional races (the 1500) which was held in Monaco, Andrew placed fourth behind two Kenyans and a Moroccan. He was very dissatisfied with his performance, and vowed to work much harder. He has the competitive drive essential for success at the international level.

Some American coaches believe that with the elevated focus and training enjoyed by professional runners, who are free of mundane concerns like going to class, Andrew Wheating may come close to El Guerrouj's incredible world records in the 1500 of 3:26 and in the mile of 3:43.13.

Andrew Wheating warrants our attention, with the 2012 Olympics looming in the near future.

Just a note for everyone. Today is the 57th anniversary of the first sub 4 minute mile. For anyone who hasn't read " The Perfect Mile: Three Athletes, One Goal, and Less Than Four Minutes to Achieve It by Neal Bascomb I strongly recommend it.

Steven,

I read The Perfect Mile when it was released. I completely agree with your assessment: It is terrific, and provides much behind-the-scenes information about the three runners (Roger Bannister, John Landy, and Wes Santee) as they "raced" each other in three continents to first crashing through the 4:00 barrier.

Respectfully all, For me it's John Walker. 3:50 barrier breaker, Olympic champion, WR holder. Plus he was a really tuff racer, Ovett like.

Also, another point for those who favor John Walker (as Tom does) is that John was the first man to run over 100 sub 4 minute miles.

John Walker was a special runner. He worked construction during much of his career, and had built up upper body strength from that labor, aiding in his powerful running style.

As I've mentioned here before, while running high school track, I prevailed upon my coach one year to have us wear all black uniforms, as our colors were black and gold (North Augusta (SC) Yellow Jackets). I grew out my hair, and raced in white Puma spikes. Can you guess whom I was emulating at the time?