Q&A with Josh Lanyon discussion

As you may or may not not know, I'm the author of Man Oh Man: Writing M/M Fiction for Kinks & Cash, and when I'm not writing my own stories, I run a successful manuscript evaluation service. But I'm always happy to answer your writing (and publishing) questions, so feel free to ask! I'll do my best to get you an answer.

I'm also happy to answer questions relating to writing processes and my habits (my good habits, that is)!

Hi, Josh,

How do you feel about m/m fiction being mostly filed under Erotica, regardless of the heat level?

Would you like to see fiction whose protagonists happen to be gay listed under the relevant mainstream genre sections rather than Erotica?

Chris

Leave it to Chris to ask the tough questions right out of the box! ;-)

I detest the practice of labeling all m/m erotica. Is it romance fiction, yes. Is all romance fiction erotica? No.

Sometimes I think it's a deliberate blurring of lines by publishers and booksellers in order to sell more books. Sex does sell, no doubt about it. Sometimes, usually, I think it's just ignorance.

As for your second question, Chris, yes and no. On line the cross-referencing, cross labeling, can be easily achieved -- and often is. So my books are labeled as mystery fiction, mystery romance, and gay fiction. And I like that. I don't want to wade through dozens of cat mysteries to find a mystery with a gay protagonist. I know many of my readers feel the same.

As far as physical shelving, I know that there are practical considerations. With bookstores carrying less and less stock and reducing floorspace, it's probably not realistic to want to see my books shelved under GLBT fiction and mystery fiction. Getting on any bookstore shelf is hard enough these days! But in a perfect world, yes, I'd like my work to be found under mainstream mystery as well as GLBT fiction.

Agree with you, Josh. I think having my last release listed as m/m erotica suffered in sales because it's not erotica - more like gay romantic/mystery/suspense.. I often feel pigeon-hold by such labeling.

Jon wrote: "Agree with you, Josh. I think having my last release listed as m/m erotica suffered in sales because it's not erotica - more like gay romantic/mystery/suspense.. I often feel pigeon-hold by such ..."

I think I resent the erotica labeling -- although I don't have any problem with erotica per se (and some of my works do have significant -- by my standards -- erotic content) because it seems to underline an almost philosphical stance: that no one wants to read these stories except for the kink factor. And that's bullshit.

A similar discussion happened recently on a blog. About romance and the need for Happily Ever After endings. I hate the fact that even romance has been labeled, that all stories need to wrapped up in a nice HEA or HFN ending. No death or loss or breakups. But I feel those are part of romance and can be a happy ending, if not a traditional one. The Hell You Say fits that for me. I learned a valuable lesson with that book - do not read the excerpts of the next in the series until you are caught up.
But I feel if we need to label we need to really tag it. Fiction, gay, mystery, romance and so on.

I don't want to wade through dozens of cat mysteries to find a mystery with a gay protagonist.

That is the advantage of labels. The disadvantage is thinking, relating for example to a label of simply m/m erotica, is one may ask "is this another soft- (or hard-)porn book without much plot or characterization"? I tend to rely on word of mouth. Which means I also widely pimp the books I like. But I do look at labels also to try to cull for things I know I like.

Andy wrote: "A similar discussion happened recently on a blog. About romance and the need for Happily Ever After endings. I hate the fact that even romance has been labeled, that all stories need to wrapped up ..."

I think as long as things aren't mislabeled I don't have a problem with them. Labels are limiting, but they're also a convenience. They're a marketing tool. So I don't generally take offense at broad labels. The Hell You Say is really a mystery with romantic elements. If it had been, first and foremost a (category) romance, yes, I could see how readers would be upset. There are plenty of romances that don't end happily ever after (Bridges of Madison County, etc.) but they aren't category romance.

The tags are a great idea because the more precisely things are tagged, the easier it is to match the right book to the right reader.

Josh wrote: "The tags are a great idea because the more precisely things are tagged, the easier it is to match the right book to the right reader."

The problem I see is that the majority of m/m ebook publishers demand a traditional HEA or HFN ending. I think if a story gets the precise tags then a publisher could go outside the box. Buyers could see the tags and decide if they want to take a chance on something that may not have the traditional endings.

Andy wrote: "Josh wrote: "The tags are a great idea because the more precisely things are tagged, the easier it is to match the right book to the right reader."

The problem I see is that the majority of m/m eb..."

Yes.

I mean, publishers are in the business of selling books, so they stay very attuned to what readers want -- what sells well. And because m/m is romantic fiction, the vast majority of our publishers are romance publishers. So of course they're very much locked into the romance formula.

But there are other publishers out there. There are other publishers of gay fiction. They are a little tougher to break into, granted, and I think this might be part of what we're bumping into. We have writers who are getting perhaps getting rejected (or are maybe not even brave enough to submit) outside this familiar m/m circle of publishers, so they push for the publishers to change. To be more accepting of non-romance genres.

Which is probably unrealistic. Publishing is a business and sometimes the needs of the artist and the writer coincide, but sometimes they don't. I suspect that most self-described romance publishers are not going to broaden into something else. Samhain tried that and seems to have mostly given up on the idea. Carina Press is giving it a shot and I'm hopeful that they might succeed. But you are correct: most publishers of m/m fiction are romance publishers and there is a formula for success.

I had just finished reading Dangerous Ground and Old Poison when I started Man Oh Man. Seeing how those two developed for you was brilliant. Just wanted to say a quick thank you for that.

Rob, have you read his Dark Horse The Dark Horse and The White Knight series? If you enjoyed Dangerous Ground/Old Poison - you'll really enjoy these as well; great action, hot romance and a thrill of a ride!

Jon, I have read those two and enjoyed them (even though I read them in reverse order, dang it). I have to say, Taylor and Will are probably my favorite duo outside that one series we won't mention. ;) They're sort of a less abrasive (I want to say cuddlier, but mean no offense) version of Ty & Zane from Urban/Roux's Cut & Run series.

Rob - I really like Taylor and Will. I've notread the Urban/Roux's Cut & Run series, yet. Perhaps I should check them out?

Jon - I've really enjoyed the two books in the Cut & Run series. Book 3 is due out in the fall, I believe. Ty & Zane are definitely rough boys and their story is pretty gritty. In fact, they remind me a little of that Riordan bloke. I hate recommending books without knowing what you already enjoy (aside from Josh's work), because then I'll feel bad if you don't like them! They're both reviewed at Jessiewave: http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/?p=722 http://www.reviewsbyjessewave.com/?p=...

(Sorry for taking the spotlight off your works, Josh.)

I didn't know about your evaluation service, Josh. When did you start that?

Josh wrote: "As you may or may not not know, I'm the author of Man Oh Man: Writing M/M Fiction for Kinks & Cash, and when I'm not writing my own stories, I run a successful manuscript evaluation service. But I'..."

By an odd coincidence, I was asked a similar question on my interview that was just posted on Speak Its Name. I agree with Josh and those who are uneasy about lumping all gay love stories under erotica. Those who are familiar with my book The Phoenix, know that only somebody who hadn't read it would label it erotica. I've nothing against erotica; two of my best friends write it very successfully. But books are expensive, and a reader who buys a book thinking it's going to be steamy and then it isn't--is a disappointed reader. We don't want that! To keep it straight in my own thinking, I think of the books with more sex than story as m/m and books with lots or story and little or no explicit sex as gay. It works for me, anyway.



Chris wrote: "Hi, Josh,

How do you feel about m/m fiction being mostly filed under Erotica, regardless of the heat level?

Would you like to see fiction whose protagonists happen to be gay listed under the ..."

Rob wrote: "I had just finished reading Dangerous Ground and Old Poison when I started Man Oh Man. Seeing how those two developed for you was brilliant. Just wanted to say a quick thank you for that."

Thanks, Rob. I totally enjoy writing those two and their crazy popcorn plot adventures.

Ruth wrote: "I didn't know about your evaluation service, Josh. When did you start that?

Josh wrote: "As you may or may not not know, I'm the author of Man Oh Man: Writing M/M Fiction for Kinks & Cash, and whe..."

About a year ago. It's paid the mortgage on more than one occasion, I have to admit.

(Sorry for taking the spotlight off your works, Josh.)

Not at all! In fact, maybe I'll start another thread for book discussion since I like talking about books too.

Speaking of discussion, there's a lot more here than I'd anticipated, so anyone getting flooded, just remember to uncheck that little Update Feed box in your Good REads profile and groups. Then you can check in and out at will.

What writing organizations do you belong to and recommend? For instance, as a romance writer, I'm in RWA and the FF&P chapter for my paranormal stuff, both of which have been helpful for industry news, networking, workshops, etc. Anything in the m/m like that?

Kari wrote: "What writing organizations do you belong to and recommend? For instance, as a romance writer, I'm in RWA and the FF&P chapter for my paranormal stuff, both of which have been helpful for industry n..."

Kari, the only thing I currently belong to is MWA (Mystery Writers of America). I used to belong to pretty much everything, but we went through a financially grim period about the second year I moved to writing full-time, and every extra expense went. I think RWA now has a Rainbow Chapter. Maybe someone can jump in here if they know for sure.

I should probably rejoin now, myself.

Josh wrote: "I think RWA now has a Rainbow Chapter..."

They do! Rainbow Romance Writers over at http://www.rainbowromancewriters.com. Very lively Yahoo Group for members, too. Their advice and support has been invaluable to me as I start my own writing career (as has yours, Josh!).

Josh wrote: "About a year ago. It's paid the mortgage on more than one occasion, I have to admit. "

I keep meaning to send a manuscript to you for your evaluation. I'd have to think of another pen name...

Andy wrote: "Josh wrote: "About a year ago. It's paid the mortgage on more than one occasion, I have to admit. "

I keep meaning to send a manuscript to you for your evaluation. I'd have to think of another pen..."

I've considered it, too, but I've been very fortunate in that a couple editors gave me a head's up on what killed the sale with the last book. One editor? Could be fluke. 2 editors say the same thing, you pay attention. Unless Josh can read over my WIP and smack me upside the head when I'm getting too dark & gritty, not much he can do. Actually, that might be good idea. Hm...LOL

Andy wrote: "I keep meaning to send a manuscript to you for your evaluation. I'd have to think of another pen..."

I can see that, actually. It takes a lot of trust (and courage) to send a rough or first draft to someone, be it an editor at a publishing house or a freelance editor. It's like getting naked with a doctor. Just because the doctor has seen it a million times, doesn't mean it's not uncomfortable for *you.*

Kari wrote: "Could be fluke. 2 editors say the same thing, you pay attention...."

I agree. If you're hearing a consensus of opinion from editors or even critique partners, it's worth listening to.

Missy wrote: "Josh wrote: "I think RWA now has a Rainbow Chapter..."

They do! Rainbow Romance Writers over at http://www.rainbowromancewriters.com. Very lively Yahoo Group for members, too. Their advice and sup..."

Thanks, Missy.

I have a question on editing. I have noticed that in this genre, authors hardly ever follow the new paragraph for a new speaker rule. This make sit very difficult to follow who is speaking. This is so common in the majority books I have read in this genre.

I have been paying attention to look for this in other books and do not see it happening nearly as much.

Thanks

Lori wrote: "I have a question on editing. I have noticed that in this genre, authors hardly ever follow the new paragraph for a new speaker rule.

Well, it's more of a guideline than a rule. I forget now which of the grand American style books tried to carve that one into stone for the rest of the world. Strunk and White? Anyway, I happen to agree that two speakers probably makes it harder for the modern reader to follow along (though I've certainly seen it handled well).

I generally prefer to go with new speaker/new paragraph, but I favor short and pithy sentences and paragraphs anyway, so that's very natural to my style.

Of course now you're going to have me noticing this in every book I read! :-D

Ha, yep...I am looking for it in everything I read now. I grab up my daughters books to look for it!

I just find myself having to re-read paragraphs (in this genre) while not so much elsewhere. Maybe it is the overabundance of the pronoun "he"...

Maybe it is the overabundance of the pronoun "he"...

HA. That could certainly be it.

The paragarph per speaker issue is more relevant to me in e books, where formatting can be a bit random anyway. I often have to reread paragraphs to be sure who has said what. Maybe it is the difference between paper and a screen, but I have less problems with it on paper.

Josh, do you write one story at a time or do you go back and forth between several?

Hi Josh -- I have a question -- about publishing, I suppose. It's a real question, in the sense that it's a real issue I may have to deal with (did I say that? Quick, knock wood!), but I'm also just interested in a general response, so I'll keep the question general.

Let's say that I have two distinct styles of writing that would cater to very different audiences (but all in m/m romance). If I published one (or a couple or three) under one pen name (lets say, first-person historicals heavy on romance, light on eros, somewhat 'fluffy' and feel-good, using very proper and 'elegant' language), but then wrote a book that was very different (lets say, dark, hard-boiled scifi action with BDSM, biting social commentary and snarky wit), what would be the pros and cons of taking on a new penname?

Do authors run the risk of alienating readers if the readers can't depend on consistency in satisfying their particular wants/needs? Hope my question makes sense.

Put another way, I'm wondering what the risks are of type-casting oneself based on one's first published novel. Especially if that novel is different from what you want to write in the foreseeable future.

(Ummm. I hope it's appropriate to say to all here that I *have* used Josh's ms service, and it was worth triple every cent and more. No, he didn't pay me to say that.^^)

Thanks! -Oco

edit: (should clarify that I hyperbolized the differences to make a point -- my styles aren't quite THAT polar -- and I've never been any good at snarky, anyway).

I generally skip around although every project reaches a point of obsession where I work that and that alone until it reaches completion. But skipping around is my way of avoiding losing time if I find I'm stuck on a particular story and need a little time to percolate ideas.

Ocotillo wrote: "Hi Josh -- I have a question -- about publishing, I suppose. It's a real question, in the sense that it's a real issue I may have to deal with (did I say that? Quick, knock wood!), but I'm also jus..."

Well, this is a great question.

I would say that the answer depends. There is quite a bit of variety in my Josh Lanyon titles, but I think -- readers can correct me if I'm wrong -- for most readers the things that they like about my work, the elements that keep them coming back for more, stay pretty consistent whether I'm writing a contemporary mystery or a historical AU.

But if I'm writing heterosexual fiction, I'm going to use a different pen name. My feeling is the two genres are going to be too different and I think it's going to lead to frustration and disappointment on the part of readers.

Same thing if I'm a romance writer and I'm now trying to break into the mystery genre. There's generally a feeling of needing to reinvent for a new readership.

That's my opinion. But you have writers like Barbara Mertz who wrote supernatural stuff as Barbara Michaels and romantic suspense as Elizabeth Peters and her two separate audiences crossed quite comfortably, so she stopped trying to keep those writing identities separate.

So I could be quite wrong. It's been known to happen. :-P But my gut instinct is to use a different pen name for significantly different genres.

So here's a question that came up off-list. I think it's a great question, and it's a question that comes up periodically.

Why use another publisher?

Why, if I'm as happy as I say I am with my publishers, do I not just stick with the same publishers?

So here are my thoughts and any other writers or readers who want to jump in are welcome to.

First, it took me a while to narrow down the publishers I wanted to work with, so there's sometimes a bit of trial and error involved. I'm refining the number of different publishers I use at this point and that decision is based on a combination of things: sales, certainly, but also a certain amount of creative freedom is important to me.

First big reason is just common sense: you don't want all your eggs in one basket.

Another big one -- different publishing houses have different reading lists. I have a loyal fan base (thank you, you guys), but I still sell more books at the larger houses than I do the smaller. That's strictly to do with the publishing house and their "branding." Samhain is a great example of this. They have a definite "brand" and very active and loyal reading community. So if you publish at a variety of houses, you *will* broaden your reader base.

Here's another one very important to me but maybe not so important to you: the opportunity to work with different editors. Working with different editors (I'm talking content editors) is instructive. I always learn new things from new editors, and as I'm always trying to improve my craft, I find that really useful. For example, I jumped at the offer to work with Nikki Kimberling at Blind Eye Books. I hadn't really seriously considered doing a spec fiction novel before Nikki approached me -- which is to say, I'd *thought* of it, but I couldn't imagine any publisher wanting that from me -- but I knew that working with Nikki would be a crash course in learning to write within the genre. And it was. It was exhausting and exhilarating.

Also, working with other publishers is part of networking. I've signed for projects to do a particular house or author friend a favor -- or because of a social or political cause.

And, this is probably unique to me, but I've signed on with publishing houses simply because an invitation came along at the right time -- in fact, I've done that four times. An editor I like has contacted me, and I've gone ahead and contributed a project. So far I've never regretted it. So, yes, I guess I like to experiment a little and apparently I can be swayed by flattery.

Are their other reasons? Probably. Those are the ones that come to mind first and foremost.

Is publishing with a different house disloyal?

That seems like such an odd idea, probably unique to niche publishing. In mainstream very rarely does an author stick with one house and one house only for the duration of his career. For one thing, editors come and go which means your biggest fan at a house may go -- or you may prefer to go with her when she moves on.

Besides, your publisher doesn't only publish YOU, right? Does your publisher put your needs above the needs of him/herself and the company? Of course not. This is a business. We treat each other with respect and courtesy and we make the smart business decisions we need to succeed. Not at the expense of the other, that should go without saying, but if your publisher's success hinges on one author, your publisher is either a very small publisher (in which case it's a different dynamic) or in deep trouble.

Anyway, the better known as an author you are, the more books you sell, and that's good for all your publishers.

But I do know authors who stick strictly with one house and who are very happy. So there really is not a right or wrong answer on this. It's whatever you feel comfortable with.

Feel free to chime in with your own thoughts!

I completely agree with all the points you made. All of my editors have their strengths and have different expectations of me, helping me develop my skills. Initially, I targeted three publishers, ended up with all of them, and only one was a poor decision on my part. I've since added one more and am thrilled that they want me.

When you have multiple publishers, you cross market yourself. (and your publisher) Recently, a novella I wrote for an anthology did really well at Publisher A, and I picked up quite a few new readers. They always ask if the novella is part of a series. Well, there's a related book over at Publisher B, so all the sudden, the sales on that book have spiked, which is good for all of us.

Since I write in several genres, having multiple publishers also allows me to spread stuff out a bit. Does Publisher A really need another science fiction from me? This paranormal might not do well here, but there's a big market for it there. Its all part of marketing your work.

Josh wrote: "So here's a question that came up off-list. I think it's a great question, and it's a question that comes up periodically.

Why use another publisher?...

Just realized I didn't say thanks so much for your reply to my question. Also, this was a good question, and I liked reading your and Belinda's take on it.

Interesting, because from my perspective, I wish y'all would stick with one. That way I can do one-stop shopping and I know where to find the authors I like. But the very thing that makes that easier on readers is the same that makes it advantageous for authors to sow the seed wide.

Belinda wrote: "I completely agree with all the points you made. All of my editors have their strengths and have different expectations of me, helping me develop my skills. Initially, I targeted three publishers, ..."

Yep. It's part of planning a career rather than hoping to sell a few books. Long term strategy as opposed to believing the sale of one book will change your life.

Ocotillo wrote: "Interesting, because from my perspective, I wish y'all would stick with one. That way I can do one-stop shopping and I know where to find the authors I like. But the very thing that makes that easier on readers is the same that makes it advantageous for authors to sow the seed
"

This is where third party vendors are useful, too, even if the royalty rate isn't quite as advantageous for authors. It's a good compromise.

Josh wrote: "Ocotillo wrote: "Interesting, because from my perspective, I wish y'all would stick with one. That way I can do one-stop shopping and I know where to find the authors I like. But the very thing tha..."

Actually, I love Fictionwise. Sometimes a reader will buy one of my new books there, then go back and buy my entire backlist. They probably wouldn't do that if they had to go from site to site.

Belinda wrote: "Josh wrote: "Ocotillo wrote: "Interesting, because from my perspective, I wish y'all would stick with one. That way I can do one-stop shopping and I know where to find the authors I like. But the v..."

True. And there are other perks for readers at these sites...free books with multiple purchases, etc. So even if a book is pricier than they like, there are compensations through third party vendors.

Until last night (*s*), I hadn't used one. The one I'd tried had an interface so difficult that I got fed up. The way it categorizes, a far too picky internal search engine.

I did go to check out fictionwise. And ended up buying 8-9 books. So Thanks, Belinda, for the timely rec (wasn't the first I'd heard of them, but guess I was 'ready'). I will note however, that the first three books I looked for weren't there (but at least the search went easily, bless them). These included Jordan's "Spleepwalker" (though this didn't surprise me), but it also included "A Vintage Affair". I noticed that the PsyCop stories weren't there, and a couple of Loose ID KZ Snow titles weren't there.

Point? Thanks, yes, very much (I did easily snap up AM Riley's new one and a couple of S Black's that I hadn't seen before) but I'll still probably rely on a couple publishers that I like and hope that titles from my less used publishers show up at Fictionwise.

Besides -- I like to keep most of the royalty heading to the author. :)

FW doesn't carry the newest releases from most publishers, most publishers submit them after they've been on the home page for a couple months. Also, not all publishers are contracted with them.

I do prefer readers to buy from the publisher's site, but when I first started buying ebooks, I didn't know that you could buy direct from the publisher, so it was through them that I discovered Loose Id and a lot of other houses, plus authors that I would never have encountered before.

Now I shop there and track the book back to its publisher. :) Well, unless I have some credit.

Besides -- I like to keep most of the royalty heading to the author. :)

Noted and appreciated!

Hi Josh, I was wondering how easy it was for you to have a story fit word count.

Hmm. For a short work I usually don't bother with subplots and I try to keep the focus on the relationship, which is generally a simple plot. Even so, I tend to have more story than necessary, which is why I get these the-book-seemed-too-short comments. I like a lot of story and I'd rather have too much story than not enough.

Are you thinking of so many words per plot beats? I don't really consciously calculate that.

Josh wrote: "Hmm. For a short work I usually don't bother with subplots and I try to keep the focus on the relationship, which is generally a simple plot. Even so, I tend to have more story than necessary, whic..."

I was thinking with submission guidelines for story lines. A publisher may have short stories as 3k-8k, novellas as 10k-20k and so on. I'm guessing that you have the same restrictions with word count in regards to what you a writing, that you can't contract for a short story and hand in a 40k piece. So, I was just wondering how hard it was for you to stay in the word count limits. I hope this makes sense, it's med time and nap time for me.