The Sword and Laser discussion

Working my way through the audio book. I am finding that the use of modern profanity, specifically the S word, particularly jarring and incongruous.

The writing seems fairly good and the tone is fairly controlled and high-minded, so why these annoying lapses into something like vulgarity? It seems to cheapen the whole thing and certainly is not indicative of the author's skill.

Is it merely supposed to be funny in its incongruity?

Whatever the purpose, I don't like it.

Better stay away from Richard K. Morgan's 'The Steel Remains', then.

I prefer real profanity to, say, Robert Jordan's cutesy fake cursing. "Oh, Light! The bloody dog just bit my flaming hand."

And it's not like vulgarity was invented in the 20th Century.

To me, it makes it almost more realistic. I mean, they have the same language as us, why wouldn't curse words develop the same way?

I agree with Lepton. While I thoroughly enjoyed The Blade Itself, the use of our real world profanity in an invented world was jarring.

@Tamahome: I have no desire to read The Steel Remains, especially after reading several reviews here at GoodReads. Not only would the profanity be overwhelming, but the explicit subject matter would be just too much for me. :)

I always enjoyed the curse words in the Shadowrun world. I just found a list of Science Fiction swear words: http://everything2.com/title/Swear+wo...

Personally, I'm ok with normal swear words in adult fiction, but I think that made up words are good for books if you want a wider/younger audience to be able to enjoy them.

Doug wrote: "Personally, I'm ok with normal swear words in adult fiction, but I think that made up words are good for books if you want a wider/younger audience to be able to enjoy them"

I dunno. I'm happy to see curse words slip into young adult fiction. There are certain situations that I'd agree should be shied away from, but what harm can curse words cause?

aldenoneil wrote: "I dunno. I'm happy to see curse words slip into young adult fiction. There are certain situations that I'd agree should be shied away from, but what harm can curse words cause? "

They can get the books censored. More damaging for the publisher, but there ya go. Also, as a parent I don't want my kids exposed to swear words in books. They are aware of bad words existing, but having them read a book where they're used is reinforcing their vocabulary and usage.

Doug wrote: "They are aware of bad words existing, but having them read a book where they're used is reinforcing their vocabulary and usage. "

Yeah, I know, and I probably agree. I just don't want to.

Doug wrote: "They can get the books censored. More damaging for the publisher, but there ya go. Also, as a parent I don't want my kids exposed to swear words in books. They are aware of bad words existing, but having them read a book where they're used is reinforcing their vocabulary and usage."

There are people who'll try to get books censored for many silly reasons. Authors should ignore them and write what they want.

As for kids being exposed to bad language ... hey, my dad gave me Stephen King books to read when I was 12, and it didn't cause me to start cursing.

A horse is called a horse. A tree is called a tree. A sword is called a sword. Why pick out the curse words to be jarred by when there are so many other "modern" words used in this story? Personally, I hate when authors make up curse words. The characters are coarse, and the profanity use makes that plain to the reader. Making up profane words and phrases takes some of the edge off for me, reminding me of some teachers I had who would curse without swearing during class. It just cheapens the effect.

The s-word (for $1000, Alex) and the f-word got back to Old English. Therefore, I don't find them jarring, especially in the context of this book. Those Anglo-Saxons were pretty rough and I'm sure their language reflected it.

As far as the use of profanity in YA lit, I'd prefer it to not be there. I'm perfectly okay with teens reading books marketed for adults that have that language, but many readers of YA lit are much younger. I'd like to know that a book I buy for a pre-teen doesn't have that in it. (Like I said, they can pick it up and read it on their own, but I don't want to be the one giving it to them.)

Rick wrote: "A horse is called a horse. A tree is called a tree. A sword is called a sword. Why pick out the curse words to be jarred by when there are so many other "modern" words used in this story? Perso..."

Absolutely right Rick. For obvious reasons, the characters in the book and indeed the book itself is in English. Of course, any swear words must therefore be in English. Swear words are part of life and must be part of fiction if there is to be and degree of reality and immersion in a story. The curse of the prude seems to be rearing it's ugly head here methinks.

I think the reason the modern swear words are best is that we know the exact implication and impact intended. It is like a translation. If we assume that this is a story in which English would not be the language spoken by the players, then it would follow this is like an English translation from their original languages. When doing translations, you try to choose the words that have the same "feel" and "punch" on the reader that the original would have.

Smurf all of you smurfing smurfherders!

Doug wrote: "Smurf all of you smurfing smurfherders!"

Who you calling smurfy looking??

Vance wrote: "I think the reason the modern swear words are best is that we know the exact implication and impact intended. It is like a translation. If we assume that this is a story in which English would no..."

Look at Deadwood for a good example. Realistically, the characters would've been using profanities (religious themed curses), not vulgarities (those that revolve around bodily functions). But to modern sensibilities, "dammit," and "the hell you say," are pretty mild, so the writers opted to use the vulgarities to make the language as shocking today as it would've been in the 19th Century.

The swear words aren't what caught me off guard as much as two words that maded me say, "ah, the author is English," and checking his bio confirmed it. there may be others that are a clear indicator, but for me 'arse' is always a hint, although some fantasy writers use it to indicate regional dialect. The real kicker was 'whinging' because all my UK and Australian friends use it, while most Americans would say whining without the extra 'g.'

P.S. Sean - for Deadwood, surely they could have thought up some variations on the word c@cksucker?

This conversation makes me think of BSG and 'fracking' - the overuse of that word is one of the reasons I stopped watching, it drove me crazy, but I wouldn't have been bothered if they had just used swear words.

I guess that I'd be in neither camp. I can't think of single specific sci-fi/fantasy book that I've read that included modern profanity. With all that I've read, there must have been at least some, so it must not have been jarring.

On the other hand, though, if I'm absorbing q-wave function collapsers, names of alien worlds/fantasy cities, created fighting styles, and this particular author's name of Elves into my world; then a "drek!", "by the tears of the goddess!", or "emasculated son-of-a-Huon flame beetle!" isn't going to break my immersion any more than having to back-up a few pages to double-check the name of the third Primarch of Rhyannia that drove the Spear Teeth clan of kobolds from the copper pits during the second age of Emonia. (His name was Todd).

Ix wrote: "I guess that I'd be in neither camp. I can't think of single specific sci-fi/fantasy book that I've read that included modern profanity. With all that I've read, there must have been at least som..."

Ix: brilliant post. I actually read your post out loud to my wife, which is about the highest praise I can give.

I always looked at this as being a translation problem. If you read a lot of sci-fi / fantasy books, as I am sure most people on here do, you will quickly realize that most books claim to have the characters speaking in tongues unknown to we the readers. This has always made me feel as if the author was in the business of translating what the characters are/were saying into English.

That being said it has always been my belief that using the English vulgar terms is just the most accurate way of expressing what the character actually said. I.E. the character actually swore in his/her own tongue and the author, playing the role of translator, simply used the closest English equivalent.

This has always served to help not break the immersion of a book due to the use of a distasteful term.

You know, I was listening to The Blade Itself while I was at the gym this morning, I'm about 1/3 through (all "reading" done this weekend). I found myself FAR less distracted by the modern profanity than I have been by the modern notions of time. Maybe it's just that the last book I finished referred to time as "hands" (i.e. how many hands above the horizon the sun was), but it definitely felt a little weird. Then again, every time I think of modern profanity, I'm reminded of the South Park episode about "the word of curse." ;)

Personally, I did not have any problem with curses when used as I would use them (or as they would be used in an action flick), after all the whole book is written in modern language- why should curses be different. Something like (and I will probably butcher the quote, don't have the book handy) "does anybody else of you @unts want a vote?" rolls off the tong and fits right in with the character. What did bother me (and that *did* bother me) are the moments when 'those' words were used in their literal meaning. "lets f...", "f..ing him probably was a mistake", blah blah blah... I can believe that there are people that do apply them in that manner but I doubt a lot of the audience of the book does.

I guess bottom line, I'm fine with profanities, as long as they are not used for the sake of using profanities.

I, personally, am disgusted by the off handed use of profanities. do you really think that words like that would have been used in that era? There is no point.
expletives do not bother me as much as other things might, but still, what is the point of the 50-100 profanities sprinkled throughout the book?

I too find the cursing offensive. Why cant the characters simply get on with the business of murdering, raping, pillaging, stealing, and mutilating each other? It really pulls me out of a good mutilation sequence when someone drops an f bomb, after all who would curse when someone cuts off their ear?
Really guys?
I agree that it feels pretentious when authors make up their own languages or words, and i agree with the translation concept, the characters probably arent speaking english either but we need to able to tell the story. If we are looking at the historical equivalent era you would have to say maybe europe in the early 1000s, and both the s word and the f word date back then. Im sure things then, and in fantasy, are just like now, some people curse all of the time, all people curse some of the time.
Im always amazed by American "morality". Murder ok, s-word somehow damages kids souls. How many murders happen on CBS on an average prime time night, not even counting one of the CSI days? But one nipple is the end of the world. Personally, my days usually involve more nipples than murders, and i think thats proabably true for most people, at least I hope so, and i wish that for you guys too:)

Halbot42 wrote: "I too find the cursing offensive. Why cant the characters simply get on with the business of murdering, raping, pillaging, stealing, and mutilating each other? It really pulls me out of a good mu..."

I think that the best example of realistic cursing i have ever heard was in the AMAZING book The Last Stand of Fox Company. it is a really good book, and i really enjoyed it. however, when a guy got shot in the leg and was really messed up, he dropped a stream of just s- and f-words for a whole sentance. that does not bother me. what does bother me is when every 3 words there is a profanity of some sort. i mean, come on. why waste good ink. use it when you have to, and just leave it there.

The cursing never bothered me. What bothered me is Abercrombie's frequent use of the word "gormless", which I had to look up. It's rare that I come across a word that I'd *never* heard before, but when I do, it becomes as obvious and annoying as a rock in my shoe.

Dennis wrote: "The cursing never bothered me. What bothered me is Abercrombie's frequent use of the word "gormless", which I had to look up. It's rare that I come across a word that I'd *never* heard before, but ..."

but that is a perfectly cromulent word, the fact it is new to you is neither here nor there.

as a rule, i'd say i prefer "real" cursing rather than made up words, although there are exceptions - Judge Dredd's "drok!" and "frek!", for example, and i agree that in books aimed at a younger audience substitutions should be made most of the time (unless "appropriate").

as for the cultural differences, one of the best examples i've come across is the late Robert Holdstock. In Mythago Wood when an Englishman from the mid 20th century meets a prehistoric hunter gatherer in Ryhope Wood, she starts to copy his religious profanities (damn, by god, etc), creating the kind of traditional fantasy expletive (Danu's tits!, etc).

Pezter wrote: "but that is a perfectly cromulent word, the fact it is new to you is neither here nor there."

Its newness was precisely what made it stand out to me every time it was used (and it is used rather often).

On a more on-topic note, by convention, it's out of place for fantasy characters to curse as we do, in the same way it would be out of place for an actor portraying a Roman to use an American accent. Not incorrect, but it stands out.

Unlike "gormless", I got used to "fuck" and "shit" in Abercrombie quite quickly.

Dennis wrote: "Pezter wrote: "but that is a perfectly cromulent word, the fact it is new to you is neither here nor there."

Its newness was precisely what made it stand out to me every time it was used (and it i..."

It is an every day slang word this side of the Atlantic. I think its use is reasonable given the author's place of residence. It is not reasonable for him to check familiarity of words with US readers for every word he uses.

I don't think Dennis was saying Abercrombie shouldn't have used the word, I think he's just commenting on how he found it to stand out more than the swearing. Using it as an example for why the swearing is less immersion breaking than something else might be. And I do kind of agree, if I just learn a word and it's used often, I'll probably notice it every time too, although that usually isn't something that necessarily reflects poorly on the author.

True, but I was just trying to illustrate that the break in immersion is on the part of the reader and not so much the 'fault' of the author.

Same happens in Bitter Seeds. Set in wartime UK but Tregillis an american author uses "bills" should be "notes" "sidewalk" for pavement "diaper" for nappy etc etc. It pulls this British reader right out of the story. As it just sounds wrong for uk characters to use this terminology.

David wrote: "Same happens in Bitter Seeds. Set in wartime UK but Tregillis an american author uses "bills" should be "notes" "sidewalk" for pavement "diaper" for nappy etc etc. It pulls this British reader rig..."

Yes that's a really good example. Those mistakes, with others, did temporarily bounce me out of the Bitter Seeds narrative but didn't spoil the book too much. I wonder why he didn't get it proof read better?

As an example (a rare one for me) of how replacing curse words with alternate words worked very well, I cite Firefly. I know it is a TV show but we are also using the audio-book as reference so work with me here.

The use of Chinese cursing or harsh language worked in the back-story of the world and made me feel more immersed because it helped to understand the future universe it was placed in.

I started my own thread here before I thought to comment here, but basically I say it depends on the world and on the author -- there is a balance to strike.

Also, @Daniel, I think the Chinese swearing in Firefly would have more impact for me if it wasn't completely incomprehensible. I am fairly conversant in Mandarin and simply can't follow their toneless, badly pronounced bastardization of it -- and neither can many native speakers.

The initial premise of this discussion is flawed. Most English vulgarities are Anglo-Saxon; the reason we think of them as "bad" as opposed to French-derived euphemisms such as "derrière" for "arse" is class discrimination from the Norman conquest ("You don't want to sound like a filthy English peasant, do you?"). For fantasy settings more similar to pre-Norman Britain, a hearty dose of good old-fashioned Anglo-Saxon oaths is actually more verisimilitudinous than either French-derived synonyms or our 19th-century euphemisms. Remember, the only definition of Standard English is "English free of societally stigmatized demographic features."

bad men use bad words, if they didn't, that would take me out of the story

I really think that the language in this book fits with the characters. They aren't well bred they aren't well spoken (for the most part). They are base men with base language. Also Abercrombie is British and the language used in this book is taken completely differently across the pond. We Americans are really uptight about language comparatively. Having read all of Abercrombie's books thus far I can't say the language was distracting at all. In fact I would say it helps the immersion. These characters would be entirely unbelievable if they didn't use vulgar language.

A little bit of a different take on vulgarity: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QZ0Ny6...

If anything I find the opposite far more off putting; having made up swear words seems odd and usually jars my reading of the story.

Even in GRRM when someone exclaims 'Seven!' it grates a little, though it rarely happens thankfully. :)

More fucks please. :P

Swearing in any book is potentially problematic and needs to be in character and context.

Modern expletives are likely to irritate me in fantasy.
It is not so much the use of words such as, "fuck" or even the dread "C" word if appropriately used. These are good old Saxon words and the latter was, iirc, just an everyday word for the female genitalia.

However, "motherfucker" is too out of place in fantasy imho. The problem is that colloquialisms can fade out of common street usage, and date badly.