Fantasy Book Club Series discussion

The tenth - and final - book is supposed to come out (in the UK) sometime this year, and I think it's one of the more important fantasy series to come out in a long while.

There are plenty of themes to explore - religion, war, gender, friendships, etc. - and plenty to disagree about.

I love this series - what I've read so far (thru book 5).

For those that are unaware, we did Gardens of the Moon in the FBC just a few months ago. Terence led a great discussion for us, and I for one would love to expand that to the rest of the books.

I'd love to do a series discussion on this too. I haven't had a chance to read past Gardens of the Moon and this would give me a great reason to do so.

I just couldnt do this one! I just hated Gardens of the Moon!

Lacey wrote: "I just couldnt do this one! I just hated Gardens of the Moon!"

Pretty much where I'm at. I didn't hate it but I didn't like it either. :)

I found book one to be one that I hated and loved at the same time. The writing, plotting and characterizations are just wonderful. But the world is unremittingly bleak and grim. I found little or no joy or happiness in it. But I have read several of the sequels and have currently stalled out for a while.

But yet I couldn't help myself Saturday when I stopped by my local used book store and lo and behold but what did I find? Books two and four in trade paperback for five bucks each. Of course, I couldn't help myself and I bought them anyway. I really need a twelve step process for my book buying addiction. :P

haha holy cow you do Jon! It's ok im the same way. :D

Jon wrote: "...I really need a twelve step process for my book buying addiction. :P"

Don't we all! My TBR pile is so out of hand & yet I'll see a new book & well... I just HAVE to get it. Reflex or something.

Don't you all know that the money spent on books doesn't count? Just like calories eaten standing up don't count! So relax. Enjoy. Read.

I keep hearing about this author. He's definitely on my "To Read" list, at least I'd be willing to give the first book a try!

I have Gardens of the Moon, but when I read the comments like Jon's and Lacey's above, I'm not sure I don't want to follow the motto "Life's too short to read bad books".

Sandra, they are not bad books... but they're are not everyone's cup of tea. Comparisons to other books that I've noticed that you like:

The level of writing is similar to Janny Wurts or George R. R. Martin.

The world is, in my opinion, very dark with little (or no?) joy and happiness for the characters who are extremely well developed and realized.

Some of the events are really quite shocking and I'm not sure if they are justified in later books or not (a mass crucifixion comes to mind).

I am of two minds about these books. I want to continue reading them at some point in the hopes that there is an "all's well that ends well" wrap up to the series... but I'm also concerned there won't be one.

Jon and Lacey, what did you not like?

And those who do like them, why?

Jeff wrote: "The level of writing is similar to Janny Wurts or George R. R. Martin."

More the latter than the former.

Janny is on another whole higher literary level. More depth, more layers, more characterization (that I care about), better world building. And awesome art as well.

Granted, I've only read Gardens of the Moon and I've read a half dozen of Janny's novels (all of them very good to excellent - not a page or a word skipped or skip-able).

I did not like the unremitting darkness with little or no hope. Darkness everywhere, permeating the world and the lives stuck in it. Darkness for darkness' sake perhaps? I need some glimmer of light, otherwise what's the point?

I did buy Deadhouse Gates over the weekend, which Brandon Sanderson recommended I start with first, rather than Gardens of the Moon. Eventually (later this year) I'll read it.

I found Memories of Ice to be quite good. But it's still the same darkness.

Jeff wrote: "I found Memories of Ice to be quite good. But it's still the same darkness."

And do you know how hard it is to find a copy of that in trade paperback. Used ones were going, the last time I looked, for $50-100! Sheesh. :)

Well since I've already got Gardens, I will try reading it at some point. I'm not averse to dark stories, but there needs to be a purpose to it. And some kind of hope for the future. I know that I bought books 1 & 2 of Gene Wolfe's New Sun series, got confused and listened to the 2nd book first and was so totally turned off by the unremitting horror and evil portrayed there that I decided I didn't want to wade through more of it for any reason. Several folks thought I was being unfair to judge Wolfe for that, and I suppose it was, but it really turned me off to have a main character who was an assassin or executioner who broke a woman's knees, cut off her head, and then laughed uproariously about it. Hopefully all of the characters in the Mazalan books don't perpetrate that kind of misogynistic atrocity or I'm sure I won't like that series either.

I am currently on no. 4 in The Malazan Book of the Fallen. Along with Janny Wurts and George Martin, these books are the most important epic fantasy series going.

I struggled with GotM. Erikson self-admittedly (read the foreword to the later editions of GotM) throws the reader into the deep end in a story that is already well underway, but this ads to the realism. Erikson refuses to spoon-feed the reader. You have no idea what is going on, and Brandon Sanderson's advice is pretty good for someone who is struggling with GotM, because Dead House Gates is more cohesive and easier to grasp. Memories of Ice, the third book, opens the reader's understanding (finally), and it was an incredibly enjoyable read for me. I am finally starting to figure out what is going on, and I am realizing what all the buzz is about.

The above being said, this is not a bedtime story for kids. It is grim, hard-hitting fantasy, but there is a fair bit of levity and humour amidst the blood and gore of battle. Battle is not presented as a pretty charge of knights on horses. It is depicted realistically in all of its horror. The Malazan Empire is loosely based on the Roman Empire, which was pretty grim and pretty hard-hitting. Granted, this is not everyone's cup of tea, but it is high epic fantasy, with lots of monsters, gods, magic galore, complex characters you love, hate, despise, etc. and so on. Fluff it ain't, but you'll either like it or hate it. Ambivalence is not an option. Utter confusion is an option, at least for the first 1.5 books of this series, anyway. These books invite re-reads.

Erikson is also an author who delivers (harken unto me, George R.R. Martin!). He published GotM in 2000, stated that it was a ten-book series, and will publish the last book in the series, The Crippled God, sometime next year. A big, fat book a year is pretty impressive, as is the lack of "series sprawl" beyond the planned 10 books. There are other series in the universe planned to deal with side plots and backstories that have interested a lot of readers, but that would have turned The Malazan Book of the Fallen into another Wheel of Time. Thank goodness Erikson resisted the temptation to put this stuff in the current series.

In a very real sense, all of the series being compared here are "dark."

A Song of Ice and Fire is pretty dark: lots of important characters killed, massacres, "bad" people seem to be winning out more often than not, and all of this is happening while what appears to be the most sinister of supernatural threats is gaining power in the north and preparing to sweep down upon the weakened lands of Westeros. Pretty dark stuff.

Wars of Light and Shadow are plenty dark too, right from book one when we have women and children massacred along with all the others. And since we know from the prologue that this war will be going on for centuries (am I remembering that correctly), we can assume that there's plenty more darkness on the way.

So I guess I'm not sure why some folks who appear to like these other series well enough find the Malazan series distasteful.

Is it this adverb I'm hearing "unremittingly" that's at issue? Really, I'd have to disagree with that assessment. While it's not a humorous series, there are humorous moments here and there. And there are plenty of moments where "good guys" triumph (though I realize for some this may seem mitigated by the fact that we often don't have clear "good guys" and "bad guys"). All of these series are, to me, unremittingly gray, unremittingly complex, and unremittingly GOOD.

Also, although I've only read the first three books of Wars of Light and Shadow compared to reading the first 8 of the Malazan series, I would respectfully disagree with Jon's assessment that Janny Wurts > Steven Erikson. More depth, more layers, more characterization (that I care about), better world building. Not having read all of Janny's work, I'm not saying that the greater than sign should be going in the other direction, but Erikson's a heavyweight in every single area of comparison (IMO).

As the one who said the Malazan books are unremittingly bleak and grim, I'd be curious for specific instances of joy and happiness that break the darkness.

As to liking the other series mentioned here, I read the first book in the Fire and Ice series and thought it excellent. But halfway through either the second or third book (I simply can't remember) I gave up. The game of musical chairs and the lack of reasonable development of the dragon girl (it seemed to me that she would be the force that changed the landscape that everyone was dying over) left me cold. Add to that his treatment of women, both in the sense of what was done to the characters and how many of the women characters didn't feel like women to me (I won't be able to give specific examples of this as it's been too long) and I didn't want to read anymore. It was not my cup of tea or cup of anything else.

The Malazan books do not fall into this category. I've read Gardens of the Moon, Deadhouse Gates, Memories of Ice, and House of Chains. I skipped Midnight Tides and read The Bonehunters. At that point I needed a break from the flavor of the world but I plan to read all of them at some point and have bought Reaper's Gale and Toll the Hounds and just bought Dust of Dreams on Kindle.

As to Janny Wurts's having more depth, more layers, more characterization... on two of those I'd say they are about equal. But as to depth, keep reading John, keep reading. :)

Jeff wrote: "As the one who said the Malazan books are unremittingly bleak and grim, I'd be curious for specific instances of joy and happiness that break the darkness.

As to liking the other series mentioned ..."

I haven't read Erikson yet, but I have read the first two books of Fire and Ice, and I have to agree with you, Jeff. I did not enjoy the 2nd book as much for the very reasons you cite.

I'm an unabashed fan of Janny Wurts' Wars of Light and Shadow and can't think of another MC as interesting and complicated and layered as Arithon. As of Stormed Fortress (8) Lysaer was also developing some interesting depths. As a person who is trained and has practiced many years in the mental health field, I can say that her characters are nuanced and psychologically authentic. Since there seems to be so much ground for discussion of the Mazalan world, I am interested to see how it develops and how comfortable/attracted/intrigued I am by it.

Link to list of novels for the Malazon Book of the Fallen series by Steven Erikson.

The final (correct me if I'm wrong) book, The Crippled God, is expected to be published later this month.

I believe it comes to the UK later this month and to the States March 1. But yes, it's the final volume.

You folks have convinced me to give this series another effort--this time an honest effort. I went out tonight and bought the first four volumes. I am actually quite excited to try this series again. I read the first book, "Gardens of the Moon" right after it came out in early 2000, and was largely befuddled. I think I am intellectually ready to tackle the series now. The first book is going with me on my business trip tomorrow.

I've just been re-reading Memories of Ice and was actually struck by how many funny moments there were. Is there darkness? Absolutely. But there are also some great moments of humor. And there's also friendship and love, the triumph of good people. It's a world of war, of atrocities... it's a dark world. But unremittingly bleak? I don't see it that way.

If this wins the poll, we're going to need a discussion leader. Any volunteers? We'll be reading one book a month, so that means 10 months.

I don't know that I could commit to doing all 10 months, but I could certainly help out with some of them. I wouldn't presume to volunteer anyone else, but I'll bet Terence would be up for leading some of the discussions--he loves the series and led the Gardens of the Moon discussion when we did it in the Fantasy Book Club or whichever club it was...

John wrote: "I don't know that I could commit to doing all 10 months, but I could certainly help out with some of them. I wouldn't presume to volunteer anyone else, but I'll bet Terence would be up for leading ..."

I'm sure Terrence will be an amazing resource and have some great discussion ideas. :)

I would be willing to help as a discussion leader too. I am enthralled with this series, and can see that it will become an old and dear friend over the remaining years of my life!

Well, if it wins, maybe one of you who knows him could ask Terence? And Christopher and John could help.

Ahem, John! You need to finish WLOS! Only one more book. :)

I guess I know Terence pretty well, at least in the internet sense of knowing someone--we comment on each other's reviews and occasionally send messages back and forth. So if he doesn't chime in on his own, I'll drop him a note--if, that is, the Malazan Book of the Fallen wins.

And yes, I know! I wasn't expecting to win a copy, so I wasn't expecting to have the book so soon, so I went ahead and continued my Malazan re-read in preparation for the 10th book coming out, and I can't just stop now--though at the same time, I haven't been able to find a lot of reading time. Just 280-ish mass-market paperback pages to go...

I am very familiar with MBotF and would be willing to be involved
I really hope this wins! I have zero interest in the other series...:(

As for those of you wondering about the series itself, Malazan is incredible! When I first started reading Gardens of the Moon, I wasn't impressed...Erikson throws you right into the middle of his world without really any exposition; we only piece things together through the various POVs of the characters. Once you get to the point where you do start putting it together, it just goes to a whole new level! I am officially addicted to this series.

Just to throw some kinks into things, I am informed that if the Malazan series wins, we should really also include the Malazan books by Ian C. Esslemont. It's almost impossible to understand the series completely without them. And there are also a few novellas by Erikson we should read (although those aren't as central to the plot, they do focus on a couple of characters who appear in the main series...)

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Just to throw some kinks into things, I am informed that if the Malazan series wins, we should really also include the Malazan books by Ian C. Esslemont. It's almost impossible to understand the se..."

IMHO, It is an idea, but not neccesary...although the books are related and in the same world, the esslemont series is a different set of stories. There is a little bit of overlap. I think 10 is enough, and if people are interested in the other ones they can add them, but it's not necessary.
I suppose if things get to that we can vote on it!

I feel like I've come of age in the modern era: People are talking about me on the internets :-)

Well, I can't but hope that Malazan wins the run-off poll but I have no plans to reread the entire series again; I did that when Dust of Dreams came out in order to be fully armed when I dived into the 9th book. Now I'm waiting with bated breath for #10 and will only be rereading #9 in anticipation.

That said: I wouldn't be averse to rereading and leading a discussion of book #6 - The Bonehunters - which is (so far) my favorite of the series (I've developed a serious crush on Adjunct Tavore, go figure :-), and doing the same on the culminating volume - The Crippled God.

I agree with Maggie: There's absolutely no reason to include Esslemont's volumes or the Beauchelain/Korbal Broach stories in our group reading. Beyond the fact that 10 700+ page books is burden enough, neither of those two adjuncts is necessary to understand what's going on in the Book of the Fallen.

Apparently there's a discussion of the series going on at Tor.com and that's where I got the information I posted above. The fans there insisted on including those things. But it is, of course, up to the group.

Terence, I'm sure we'd be delighted to have you lead the discussion of book #6. I guess we'll have to wait and see which series wins.

It's been my experience too that the Esslemont books and the novellas aren't critical to the main series.

Of course, if enough were interested in them, you could always set up a side-reading for that.

Unfortunately, it kind of looks like 'Riftwar' is starting to pull away from TMBotF in the run-off vote. Too bad, as I think most folks would be ever-so-surprised once they started reading Erikson's series. I read several of the 'Riftwar' series years and years ago, and while they were 'okay' in my opinion, they sure weren't anything up to the level of TMBotF. But then not everyone sees the world through my rose-colored glasses, eh? ;-)

Hopefully, we can get Erikson's series front and center for a read/discussion in the near future.

Thanks Nicola. When Crippled God comes out, I am going to read the entire series all together.

So-I am so bummed out that we didn't win by a whole two points! I just do not care for the other series at all....Do we want to try to do a simultaneous read here? Anyone have other ideas?

Maggie wrote: "So-I am so bummed out that we didn't win by a whole two points! I just do not care for the other series at all....Do we want to try to do a simultaneous read here? Anyone have other ideas?"

If you read the comments under the poll, you'll see that we are considering doing just that.

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "Maggie wrote: "So-I am so bummed out that we didn't win by a whole two points! I just do not care for the other series at all....Do we want to try to do a simultaneous read here? Anyone have other..."

waves at Sleo--Is it still there? I couldnt find it...I suggested it there but I wanted to bring the discussion over here to see how much support there was for the idea.

Yes it's still there. Click on polls up in the right hand corner of the page. Then click on comments for the first poll.

I hadn't said anything, but I was wondering the same thing. It seems to me that if enough people are interested in each series, there shouldn't be any reason not to do a simultaneous read of both. A few people may have to choose between the two, but it sounds like there should be enough interest in both series to have good discussions. For my part, I'm not planning on reading the other series any time soon anyway, but I AM in the midst of re-reading the MBotF in preparation for the release of The Crippled God.

So, it is now official. We will be doing Riftwar, starting February 1, and Mazalan starting February 15. If you all can sort it out who is going to lead the discussion for each book and let me know, I will try to help as much as possible.

I think everyone needs to make their own decisions about whether they are joining both discussions.

Raymond Feist will be joining us now and then for the Riftwar discussion, so that is good.

Thank all of your for your active participation! PM me with any questions, or post here, either way.

Yayyyyyyy...I'd be happy to help lead a discussion or two

Wow, Maggie, you are really hyped up into these books.

Okay, so think about who wants to start with Gardens of the Moon, on February 15.

Kevin wrote: "Wow, Maggie, you are really hyped up into these books."

yeah-I am a geek...lol Actually, more like an Erikson addict