Fantasy Book Club Series discussion

Has your mental picture of these two men and their relationship changed in this book? Personally, my love for Arithon deepened in this book, although at times his behavior baffled me. I still feel sorry for Lysaer, though. What about you?

I really like Arithon too. He is doing so much to try and avoid the inevitable. I'm glad he got the chance to be with Master Halliron and learn all he could from him. I'm thinking that those bardic powers are really going to end up being important later on.

Lysaer is so driven by the curse that he really can't appreciate anything else. He has that geas blessed sense of justice and no mage training which really made him so susceptible. Other people around him, such as his new wife, see how driven he is. I think it is really sad that Lysaer is tainting all those around him with this hate and fear as well.

Amelia wrote: "I really like Arithon too. He is doing so much to try and avoid the inevitable. I'm glad he got the chance to be with Master Halliron and learn all he could from him. I'm thinking that those bar..."

I agree, Amelia. Lysaer at this point in the story appears to be incapable of tolerating ambivalence. I'm not sure if his infection with the curse influences the people around him or if he's surrounded by people who flatter him into belief in his own righteousness. I can remember in 'Curse' that Taleth and her brother -- is it Diegan? -- were feeding him the thoughts he needed to rekindle the hatred of his brother that he had in the beginning, when they were crossing the red desert.

Arithon almost suffers too much with his ability to see all sides. He's tortured by it and yet his need to protect others pushes him to fight and kill in ways that he hates. Also, unlike Lysaer, he does not invite others to follow him. He really tries to discourage them from it, only shouldering the responsibility for their allegiance with great reluctance.

Sandra AKA Sleo wrote: "Also, unlike Lysaer, he does not invite others to follow him. He really tries to discourage them from it, only shouldering the responsibility for their allegiance with great reluctance."

Arithon certainly tries to keep people from following, but it hasn't stopped them from following all on their own. Once they get to know him a little better, they almost can't help themselves. He isn't as chasimatic as Lysaer, but he certainly demands respect in his own right.

Both brothers are so tragic and compelling each in his own way.

SoM focuses much more on Arithon than Lysaer. His tragedy is that he can recognize the disaster of the geas and its inherent wrongness, yet can do nothing to save himself from it. Because he knows he is accursed and can bring only pain and suffering to anyone who gets close to him, he absolutely must keep all other humans at arm's length. His loneliness is profound and achingly sad. When he and Elaira declared their love and he was forced to push her away, it tore me up.

Lysaer's tragedy is doubly sad in that he was deliberately sacrificed to the full force of the Mistwraith's poison when the two princes first defeated it and Asandir had to pick which brother to allow it to savage. I agreed with his choice; it had to be Lysaer. If the Mistwraith had gained full access to Arithon's mind, it would have gained his mage-training and then could never have been stopped. He is so warped by the geas, his obsession is grand and blind. I speculate he will sacrifice many, many lives and be covered in an ocean of blood before this whole thing is over.

Now, speaking as a lusty, red-blooded female, I'd take on both brothers!

Leslie wrote: Now, speaking as a lusty, red-blooded female, I'd take on both brothers!

::chuckles:: good point, Leslie. I like your comments above, too.

If you were disenchanted with Lysaer's choices - the question definitely follows: would you have bought into his heroic agenda IF you had not been given the grace of seeing the opposite (Arithon's) view?

Would you have bought into the rhetoric?

And, in our world view - do we? - daily, based on the slant in the 'news'?

I felt that was a big point of the series, so far. The assumption is that Lysaer is Light, therefore Good.

He's charismatic and his wholehearted belief in his cause is contagious. Without the other view present, it would be easy to get caught up in his rhetoric.

It's a good illustration to show people when they ask why certain real world leaders were able to rise to power. Perspective affects everything.

I've thought about your question while reading. What Arithon has done has not been very nice. People have died, way too many. We, as the readers, understand Arithon's motivations why he did what he did and in part he was trying to save other lives at the cost of those who died. Without knowing these thoughts, I think it would be very easy to join up with Lysaer to get rid of this 'enemy'. Plus, Lysaer and his followers are keeping the knowledge of his part in his cursed based actions very quiet. They don't want their followers to know that he (Lyasaer) is just as driven, more in some ways, as Arithon.

I didn't answer the second question and I wanted to, so here goes.

I think we are very affected by the slant in the news. Everything we see or read about, including history, is slanted according to the presenters ideas, experiences and views. Once it actually makes it into the reader's hands, it is oftn taken at face value and never questioned.

I remember learning in my statistics class that polls are really affected by the phrasing of the question. Pollsters gear their questions to get the answer they want. That really skews up any reults that come from them.

It's really easy to just accept this as fact without questioning it or even thinking about what it means.

On a side note, I'm going camping next week and won't be able to follow the discussion until I get back. I'm looking forward to camping. I'm just sad I can't follow the discussion for a week. At least I'll have a lot to read up on when I get back. Plus I'll be able to immerse myself in Athera without many of my normal distractions.

Amelia wrote: "I didn't answer the second question and I wanted to, so here goes.

I think we are very affected by the slant in the news. Everything we see or read about, including history, is slanted accord..."


I hope you have fun camping, and enjoy Athera!

I definitely think that Arithon is difficult to understand at times, and his outer sarcasm and cutting tongue, and the way he acts like a doofus before the big battle in 'Curse' makes it hard to understand him at first. I remember thinking when they were preparing to crown him in Tysan that he was going to make a lousy king. Too introverted and torn! But of course, I changed my mind later.

I can definitely understand the crowd that follows Lysaer. And I can understand Dakar's hated of Arithon even while wanting to shake him and make him see the other side. And I got very frustrated with Arithon for not defending himself against Dakar's attacks.

And as someone who is almost always in the minority when it comes to public opinion, I'm not sure that I would've been so blind about Lysaer, but there wasn't much evidence abroad in Athera to show Arithon's honor.

Thanks Sandra. I really looking forward to the break from work. I miss summer break as a kid.

The whole war between the two brothers is getting intense. I'm really excited to be able to read more of it. Have fun discussing. I'll be back in a week.

Janny wrote: "If you were disenchanted with Lysaer's choices - the question definitely follows: would you have bought into his heroic agenda IF you had not been given the grace of seeing the opposite (Arithon's)..."
It would really depend on how much information was available on Lysaer's and the Headhunter's activities in general. One of the major issues for me in the "town" society is the acceptance of "head"(scalp) hunting and the treatment of the captured clanfolk who weren't killed(some form of forced labor if I remember correctly). If I was aware of how highly Lysaer esteemed the headhunters, I would take everything he said with a grain of salt. HOWEVER, if this wasn't common knowledge and I wasn't aware of it, then the rhetoric and propaganda would be easier to swallow. But, even then, maybe not. For example, a few times in this read it would come up that "so many soldiers" died at Tal Quorin and each time my thought was "they were soldiers and soldiers WILL die in battle". I just don't understand why they place ALL the blame on the opposition. Part of the blame lies on the people who walked into battle ill-prepared. But maybe that's just my Army training showing...

As for whether we buy into rhetoric based on the news? Well, yes, we all do to a certain extent. I try to read various sources and sides of issues in order to balance biases, but the biases are still there and there are likely overall cultural biases that are hard to get around. We all tend to have the mindset of the cultural structures in which we were raised. It's hard work to break out of these mindsets. I think this is why rhetoric and propaganda can work so well. They elicit the dominant cultural mindset in which the majority of people are entrenched and thus define the mental "comfort zone" in relation to a given event or situation.

Tracy, the other piece that is never talked about regarding Tal Quorin is the fact that the clansmen were defending themselves from unjustified attack! And those 'poor' townsmen nearly wiped out the clan! The numbers of soldiers were so unequal as to be pathetic.

I was particularly touched by Arithon's attempts to avoid battle and to avoid confrontation so that he didn't have to kill his half brother by smoking the weed (that I can't remember the name of) that helped him see the future, an agonizing process.

Tracy wrote: "Janny wrote: "If you were disenchanted with Lysaer's choices - the question definitely follows: would you have bought into his heroic agenda IF you had not been given the grace of seeing the opposi..."

Tracy - interesting point about the headhunters.

If you were townborn - such 'atrocities' would happen out of view (most clanborn were trapped in the 'free wilds' or off the beaten track.

If you were townborn - would you visit the 'sweatshop' in the slum where (at least in Mistwraith) such forced labor, and even, child labor was happening.

What happens beyond the view of day to day society here and now - how easily is that written off? Does the average shopper care where they get their goods, or who suffers in the making of them? We have laws against child labor in the USA and other countries, but importation from other regions edges that law all too easily. And who looks at the illegal labor in the fields doing the harvest?

I am not interested in starting a socio political thrash over this world - but in Athera - how implausible or not - that society doesn't necessarily look underneath the skirts to see its own dirty linen as it were?

There are plenty of 'soldiers' on campaigns of annihilation - who 'think' their actions righteous...how many times I've been the fly on the wall listening to militants say 'if we had the funding we could clean out - whatever - group of dissidents' - when they have 'cause' society gives the funding...

In that light - Tal Quorin was a bomb fuse waiting for a spark -

There are many people who are aware of situations - but believe their own choice is powerless - they forget to use their spending dollar to pressure a new choice...often I'm told the excuse (fair trade clothes, say) 'costs too much'

What value do people place upon 'equity'?
Or is it expendable only when it doesn't impact the purse strings?

And insular societies - they exist in plenty, today, even in very civilized countries - old hatreds persist after hundreds of years even when (to an outsider) the differences are slight.

Can I (my own question to ME) even/ever BEGIN to understand the situation that is Northern Ireland?

I guess I am asking what folks think - when the dominant cultural mindset DOES know, but won't change - Why? Why is change so hard?

yup - one of the burning coals that drives my curiosity, anyway. What do others think?

Why is it so hard to change in the face of the dominant mindset? Well, the flippant answer is that people are lazy. The fact is that people seem to be pack or herd or tribal creatures, in that, it is almost instinctual to follow the dominant members. When those few people who disagree with the dominant line feel isolated and surrounded, they are unsure if it is worth the effort, an effort that appears massive in their "one vs the world" limited view. A lot of people are just "grumblers"(like me in real life); people who see what they believe could be better, but don't actively do much of anything except talk. To make an actual movement for change you have to get beyond "grumbling" and find the people willing to act, but there are far fewer "action" people. Most people in life, and even more so in a the more labor intensive world of Athera, are too busy just trying to get by in there own life.

Another big thing with going against the dominant mindset is fear. People who feel like they are alone in their way of thinking will fear the reaction of everyone around them. Fear really is a mind killer, in that fear of a bad outcome will bring most people to inaction. It's just so much less stressful(less fear inducing) to go with the flow.

It's really commendable that these books are so well written that these internal conflicts are brought to life. That they so aptly mimic and reflect "real world" situations shows a true depth to the characterizations of the individuals and the intertwining societies.

Yes, Tracy, isn't it? I was just thinking what an interesting discussion has been going on here and all started by the really intriguing concepts explored in these books.

Janny and Tracy, great points, and you both suggest the difficulty we have seeing "outside the box" as it were. It's very easy to see our perceptions as "the way things are," very natural to do so. In order for it to be otherwise, we first have to have our perceptions bump up against reality, either through experience or through a "teacher" who points out the edges of our box (and often we need both). Then we need to have the flexibility of mind, the openness, to avoid the reflexive rationalizations that are built into the box to keep us inside. In the context of the books, if we tried to get town-born people to see things from the perspective of clansmen, it would be easy for them to justify themselves because "they're just barbarians" (pre-built mental category that allows dismissal) or "they steal from us" (seeing surface facts without broader context, either current or historical). Even those with more education are not immune from these things, as they might say view the clanborn as having been on top of the social order--and therefore inherently oppressive--for centuries past, and therefore deserving of their status now as outcast, as outlaws, as "other."

If the tables were reversed--if Arithon and the clanborn had the power position Lysaer and the towns have--would Arithon pursue the same relentless, implacable course Lysaer is now?
I think not because his inherent ability for compassion and empathy would guide him to choose a different path. I think he would continue to choose evasion, which allows for avoidance of collateral damage. Also, unlike Lysaer, Arithon is self-aware in terms of how the Mistwraith's curse is working against both himself and his brother.

What do others think?

Leslie wrote: "If the tables were reversed--if Arithon and the clanborn had the power position Lysaer and the towns have--would Arithon pursue the same relentless, implacable course Lysaer is now?
I think not be..."

Even back when they were crossing the Red Desert in the very beginning, Arithon says something about it being a heinous crime to kill a brother, and he sticks to that. Lysaer doesn't seem to have the same scruples even that early on.

I am so behind on all of this, but just wanted to chime in:

I do favor Arithon, and I am sure most people who read the books (the first two) do as well because we all know much more than the other characters in the book. When hard pressed, I feel for Lysaer, but I have to really make a conscience decision to think about it. It is not fair as they are both afflicted by a curse and both dealing with it in a way that they truly believe is the best way and a way that fits comfortably with their otherwise admirable traits, but that is the way it is for me. Oh, and Arithon reminds me of my guy; reminds me of him a alot.

In regards to the general public's views, I think it would be nearly impossible for any but a few to have a fair and balance account of what is going on. The technology level will not allow timely information from multiple areas/viewpoints. Heck, even with our current technology level it takes effort to find all of the sides to the story. The people who doubt Arithon's "evilness" are only those who have actually interacted with him long enough to get past a sometimes difficult personality and accept what they witness.

I don't think getting behind matters in this group, which is one advantage of this kind of group.

Even with our technological advantages it is disturbing to me how easy it is for the media to spread half truths and downright lies and gullible people just eat them up.

But Lysaer puts himself out there for people to see and is always very sure that he wears all the symbols of power and with his great showy light that he's able to produce is easier for people to relate to and believe that he is what he says he is. Arithon, on the other hand, has been traveling around disguised as a bard, and he makes no attempt to proselytize and draw people to follow him. In today's parlance, he has a very bad PR department.

Why do people gobble up the 'news with spin'?

Do you think our school systems teach children to accept what they are told without question?

What causes ignorance to be the 'norm' anyway? Here - and in Atheran societies? Is this laziness a human trait, or something inculcated by our cultural dogmas?

And if dogmas, what set those boundaries of belief in place, anyway? Here or on Athera?

Without going into the politics of it, I must point out that our public education system in this country has been under attack for at least 30 years, and it shows. Children are not taught critical thinking skills anymore. This is because those skills are not needed for the low-wage service sector jobs that are increasingly the ONLY jobs available to them. This is deliberate, make no mistake. A dumbed down populace, kept distracted and off-balance, won't agitate for substantive change. They are too busy just trying to survive.

In the pre-industrial world of Athera, where there is no public education system and no modern means of communication, the average population is naturally far less sophisticated. They rely on religious dogma and folk beliefs to guide them--much like our own society today, despite our technology! The vast majority are just trying to survive--the herders of Vastmark, for instance.

With no ability to parse out what is truth and what is propaganda, the average person easily falls prey to the demagogue or the authority figure. Couple this with nationalism, religious absolutism, racism, and willful ignorance, is it any wonder large swaths of society will eagerly swallow half-truths and outright lies when told to them by a charismatic leader?

I don't know if this corrosive ignorance is so much a matter of laziness--and I'm speaking of our modern American society now--as it is our almost total lack of widely available sources of unbiased, accurate information about the world as it really is. Most of what the average American sees is infotainment and propaganda disguised as news. If we had a proper media in this country, where a variety of political opinion was given equal time, things would be a lot different, politically.

In Lysaer's world, HE is the only source of information about Arithon. We can equate him to a certain right-wing media organization that says it's fair and balanced but is not; he claims to tell the truth, but in fact, he spreads only propaganda. He is so beautiful and persuasive, he all but hypnotizes most people who fall within his orbit. Poor Arithon doesn't stand a chance against such a mighty propaganda machine! Only a few individuals have been able to withstand his charm offensive so far, and they are marginalized; one in particular has paid a heavy, heavy price.

With no way to effectively get his point of view out to counteract Lysaer's, Arithon is hamstrung, politically. Lysaer controls the 'spin', and therefore, holds all the power...at least for now.

Personally I think Arithon set public opinion against himself right at the start, and it was the curse that caused it. If someone went and clapped me in the dark I would have come out looking for trouble as well, even though the dark did me no harm, still it would have made me angry. That there was some handsome saviour who got rid of the dark (even though the reader knew otherwise), that would have added powerful incentive to give loyalty to Lysaer. Forget about propaganda and what people might or might not have known about dirty laundry and how the clans were treated. That seemed pretty black and white to me, Arithon wielded shadow against all of Etarra and Lysaer exhausted himself saving them from it. Personally I would have just kept Lysaer in Etarra rather than risk him going off chasing after any treacherous little shadow wielding sorcerer. But I have no doubts Lysaer can be persuasive, being so mad in the first place he probably would have swayed me to his cause for justice without too much effort. If I had been in charge of Etarra's forces I would have just surrounding them and starving them out till they handed the little pest over though. But Lysaer did not care who he mowed down getting to Arithon, and again the curse was the cause of that, his good judgement was blinkered as well as his conscience.

You have a point about the darkness the people were thrust into while Arithon was escaping. I wouldn't have been too happy, especially since they'd barely got the sun back.