Reading with Style discussion

Post suggestions, criticism, or other comments regarding Reading with Style here.

Would a folder for general chat be good for 'group bonding'?

Yes, we are planning roll out a 'general chat' type of folder as part of the Winter Challenge folder sets.

As we attracted faster/more dedicated readers, we have more and more mega-finishers. I would, as in the past, like the mega-finishers to participate in creating the following challenge, whether by choosing a task or a group read.

So, how do people feel about the number of books for groups reads? One book seems too restrictive for a challenge, but if there are a dozen, it doesn't seem like much of a group activity? In the past we've had 5-7 books, does this seem like the correct amount? Too many? Too few?

One book is definitely too restrictive. Five to seven seems like a reasonable number, though I'd say that up to ten would still be a small enough number to feel like a group activity, particularly since the task can be repeated and at least a couple people will probably read more than one of the group choices.

I like the range of 5-10 because often I have read a few of the books already and if I also get to make a choice, then I can still choose from a range of books that are new to me.

Say, it just occurred to me that these group reads are not what we usually think of as group reads - we won't be having a discussion, for instance. How about if in the future we call it Group Recommendations.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Say, it just occurred to me that these group reads are not what we usually think of as group reads - we won't be having a discussion, for instance. How about if in the future we call it Group Recom..."

Or maybe we should add a discussion thread?

Karen GHHS wrote: "I like the range of 5-10 because often I have read a few of the books already and if I also get to make a choice, then I can still choose from a range of books that are new to me."

I agree. I've had that problem too of having already read the group read books. I would like to see a discussion thread. I often want to get another's take on a book

A task suggestion; Read a book whose author has initials that exactly match US State Abbreviations and maybe include D.C. for Washington DC? For example Anne Rice would work for AR (Arkansas), Mark Twain for MT (Montana), David Eddings for DE (Delaware), Sandra Dallas for SD (South Dakota) or Paul Auster for PA(Pennsylvania). Here is a link to the State Abbreviations.
http://www.50states.com/abbreviations...

Ooh, I like that!

Rebekah wrote: "A task suggestion; Read a book whose author has initials that exactly match US State Abbreviations and maybe include D.C. for Washington DC? For example Anne Rice would work for AR (Arkansas), Mark..."

Did I put this is the wrong thread?

I would Love to have a thread to discuss the group reads

Since we have so many group reads now (I'm not complaining! I love having such a broad choice!) What about a completion bonus for all reading all of the group reads for each challenge? Since there are usually less than 10, maybe an extra 10 points per book?

For the Spring, how about a Spring Cleaning (for your life) book. The book would have to be about the main character exploring a new opportunity whether through a new job, re-locating, love, etc.

Another idea I had was one in celebration of Mardi Gras - a novel where the protagonist is something other than they are. Essentially it's in celebration of costume but spy novels like The Scarlet Pimpernel/The Pink Carnation series would also work.

It seems like a few members are always the top readers and get to make up tasks for the next challenges. However, I'm sure there are others who don't read as fast or have less time or whatever but I'm sure they would enjoy coming up with a task as well.
Since the moderators create all the 20 pt tasks and the sub-challenge, how about letting others do the 10 pt tasks that the moderators usually assign?
To pick the members to do this it could be random or meet some kind of criteria. I know another group lets the most improved player make up a task. What about who read the most classics, goodreads authors or who reads the most group reads? Of course the winners for other categories, most points, most reviews, etc.. would be excluded as this would be to include more members in the fun process.

That sounds like a great idea Rebekah.

I suggest that if it's random (which is probably easiest for the mods to administer), there should be some kind of minimum criteria, either points or e.g. only picking people who have claimed points in all 3 months of the current challenge. That would make sure the mods are not wasting time trying to contact people who might have lost interest.

We are considering some enhancements. Stand by.

Rebekah wrote: "It seems like a few members are always the top readers and get to make up tasks for the next challenges. However, I'm sure there are others who don't read as fast or have less time or whatever but I'm sure they would enjoy coming up with a task as well...."

This is something I have been thinking about and have discussed with the other mods. One idea I have been considering is a limitation on the number of consecutive times an top reader designs a task. So, if a member has been a top scorer and creates a task for three challenges in a row, then they do not for the fourth challenge. They are eligible again for the fifth challenge. Does this make sense?

However, since this is a decision that impacts y'all and your participation, I will make a poll and you can decide whether or not to implement this idea.

ETA: Vote on the poll

I've been thinking about this issue since it was brought up and I wish I had thought of this idea sooner, but it just popped into my brain this morning. What if the moderators determined 3 "secret criteria" for task creation each challenge. The rest of us don't know what the 3 criteria are, so everyone just enjoys the challenge the way that's best for them. When the challenge ends, the mods announce the 3 criteria and the 3 task creators. They could randomly choose to include top points, but it wouldn't be that way all the time. I enjoy creating tasks, but I have no problem spreading the fun around!

I really like that idea!

Me too!

Me three! ^_^

That sounds like fun!

How about reading a book about books? Or it could take place in a bookstore or a library.
Examples
Ex Libris: Confessions of a Common Reader
A Gentle Madness: Bibliophiles, Bibliomanes, and the Eternal Passion for Books
The Bookman's Promise
Dewey: The Small-Town Library Cat Who Touched the World
The Yellow-Lighted Bookshop
Book Lust: Recommended Reading for Every Mood, Moment, and Reason

For Labor Day, read an author whose name comes from an occupation. Keep in mind other than the obvious names like Baker, Smith, Caprenter, many archaic occupations are still surnames such as Crier (the town crier),
Hind (a domestic servant or farm laborer), Hooker (Not what you think!!!!! in the 16th century it meant a reaper), Tyler (laid tiles), Thacker/Thatcher (made thatched roofs), Turner (lathe worker),Crocker (the maker of pottery), Collier (coal miner).
here is a link. Not all the different spellings are given though.
http://rmhh.co.uk/occup/c2.html

Glad you're thinking, Rebekah! Would you mind moving these to the task ideas thread? It's easier if we keep these ideas together.

Rebekah wrote: "For Labor Day, read an author whose name comes from an occupation. Keep in mind other than the obvious names like Baker, Smith, Caprenter, many archaic occupations are still surnames such as Crier ..."

More links
http://nameberry.com/blog/occupation-...

Fall = Colorful Leaves
A book title with a color in it?

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Glad you're thinking, Rebekah! Would you mind moving these to the task ideas thread? It's easier if we keep these ideas together."

I just realized I pput this in the wrong thread when I went back to look at the new posts on tasks suggestions and couldn't find my posts! lol

On YA book designation, style points and Lexile scores (see recent posts in the completed task thread.

As a high school librarian and one who needs to read YA literature for my job as well as for enjoyment, I've been thinking a lot about the new ways of determining the YA category for this season using BPL's designation and lexile scores. I honor what the moderators of the group want for their group and I think I have some thoughts and suggestions that would work in the future.

Thoughts:

There is no MARC record authority directing the YA category. All of the fiction books in my high school library are shelved together whether adult or YA from the publishers (the people who actually determine the YA category in the current day publishing market). In a public library like BPL where adults, young adults and children are all served, the librarians will make choices based upon where the book will find the most patrons, hence a more obscure book by Steinbeck that wasn't written with young adults in mind like
The Moon is Down ends up in the YA section, perhaps because so many teens read Of Mice and Men as a school requirement and , if they like it, come into the library looking for more Steinbeck.

Lexiles are given to books for the purpose of determining a reading level for students learning to read. Books popular in schools and those tested with a "canned" reading program like AR and newer books (but not brand new) are more likely to have been given a lexile score. A book like the more obscure Steinbeck or the Thomas Jefferson book in question and others not popular in schools won't have a score.

Lexile Scores are developed electronically by vocabulary and word count, not really by context, so the scores can be deceiving. For example using Steinbeck you get 700 for East of Eden and 810 for The Red Pony, so the book with the more adult context actually gets the lower lexile score.

Another example of publisher choice and lexile scoring is Ready Player One which in my opinion was great, but read as a YA book to me even though it was published for adults. In the book he mentions Cory Doctorow. Cory Doctorow has published a top notch YA book about gaming and world economics with a lexile score of 1070 and sophisticated content For The Win,but I can't compare lexiles because there is no score for Ready Player One.

YA as a publishing category didn't exist until after Robert Cormier wrote in the 70s, so any book published earlier has been selected as YA by someone other than the author. There was no such thing as writing for teens specifically when Steinbeck wrote his books.

Suggestions:

Books written before 1970 and/or written by a well known person (Jefferson) or author before 1970 qualify for style points and/or

Books by an author on the Canon automatically qualify for style points even if the specific book isn't on the canon list (Steinbeck)



Allow YA on our own honor system when no lexile is available - (my real preference would be to bag the lexile requirement completely and allow YA, but not children's books but I understand the "quality control" issues) and/or -

Lexile of 800 required for the 15 point tasks, but go back to 700 for the regular challenge 10 and 20 point tasks for style points.

Ok, that's more than enough from me for now;)
I definitely get tired of teen books all about romance and I enjoyed taking a break from that this summer, but there are some other YA books out there (like the Doctorow I mentioned) that I wish more adults would try out. There is some great writing coming out of the YA world!

Karen, I once believed there was no such thing as YA prior to the early 70s. I realize Wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all, but perhaps this is of interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young-ad...

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karen, I once believed there was no such thing as YA prior to the early 70s. I realize Wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all, but perhaps this is of interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young-adult..."

The Thomas Jefferson Bible does not fit that definition. This book is but an abridged copy of the KJV of the Gospels.
Here is the first page of The Jefferson Bible: The Life and Morals of Jesus of Nazareth which is the first half of The Jefferson Bible;
And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed. (And this taxing was first made when Cyrenius was governor of Syria.)
And all went to be taxed, every one into his own city.
And Joseph also went up from Galilee, out of the city of Nazareth, into Judea unto the city of David, which is called Bethlehem (because he was of the house and lineage of David,)
To be taxed with Mary his espoused wife, being great with child.
And so it was, that, while they were there, the days were accomplished that she should be delivered.
And she brought forth her first-born son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them at the end-Luke 2
It goes on with the Beatitudes that were given on the Sermon of the Mount, the parables, even the obtuse ones with the virgins and the oil lamps and the tares being sown in the wheat field, the prodigal son, the Lord's prayer etc..

I also read Of Mice and Men (though I haven't posted it yet) and was a bit stunned at how low the lexile was compared to the maturity level of the content. I knew I wouldn't get the styles point when I started, but decided to use it anyway. I then spent sometime pulling stuff up on lexile just to see what it did to Hemingway for example. I remember most of the other Steinbecks being above the 800 and the Hemingway one I looked at also seemed higher.

My suggestion would be to let books that get "YA-assignment" at BPL rather than just a straight "YA" be eligible for style. It feels like something that is assigned reading would tend to have more redeeming merit than a book that not used instructionally? I went to 3 different high schools before studying engineering, and feel like there are bits and pieces literature that I missed entirely. I'm often purposefully reading something that I feel I missed as a high school assignment.

My suggestion in no way helps the Jefferson Bible situation though. That just seems like it should never have gotten classified as a YA in the first place.

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Karen, I once believed there was no such thing as YA prior to the early 70s. I realize Wikipedia isn't the be-all end-all, but perhaps this is of interest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young-adult..."

That was an interesting article. My thinking on YA publishing comes from a session at a library conference with Michael Cart who is cited throughout the Wikipedia article. I still like the idea of a date to determine whether a lexile score is necessary for style points, but maybe 1960 would be a better date to include SE Hinton?

Also, these are just thoughts and suggestions -- as always, the mods rule!

Rebekah, my link did not intend to address how RwS is identifying YA, only the librarian's concern about YA not being a genre before the 1970s.

Oh, I love the mods too! (smile)They're grrrreeeeaattttt!

Yes the mods are superstars! :)

There are lots of advantages to having clear rules - both for us in our planning and for the mods who are not put in the difficult position of having to argue with us - and I think those advantages outweigh the few cases (which has also happened to me) where a book falls under the rule when we think it shouldn't. So I don't think an honor system is the best idea.

I think a cut-off date might be a good idea - maybe 50 or 60 years ago? That would be very clear and would save some checking. Either that or removing YA Assignment which seems to me to cover a lot of classics.

I vote for removing the YA Assignment.

Pigletto, do you mean remove the lexile requirement from YA Assignment books? I know the moderators have worked hard to develop a computer program that helps with all the work of scoring and so it may be that some of these ideas are just impossibly complicated and/or just can't work with the program. I actually hadn't even searched the BPL catalog before, so I went on and looked a couple of books up. One, The Chocolate War by Robert Cormier was YA Assignment at most branches, but not at all branches.
At any rate, I like getting my brain around these issues no matter what decisions are made. Thanks for letting us process, mods!

I don't think if everything can always be so clear cut. The reading world is dynamic, with new genres, new assessments, new everything all the time and having a group of inteligent readers who love to discuss books, analayze them and find how literature fits into our own lives and the fact we come from all around the world and all backgrounds, well we need to have discussions and debates from time to time. I don't think it would always be a bad thing. Nobody's being ugly.

How about scrapping the YA restriction for 10 pt books and see how that goes? (keep it for 15 + 20pt books)
The page limit of 100 will keep out the worst/easiest of the kids books.

Playing devil's advocate here:

Why shouldn't "classics" and books published before, say 1960, be considered YA?

Liz M wrote: "Playing devil's advocate here:

Why shouldn't "classics" and books published before, say 1960, be considered YA?"

This is a great question, Liz. For me, there is no good reason. If teens are led to great books in a public library or bookstore that are of interest to young adults, but were not originally published for them (either written for adults originally or written for young people before publishers really got on board), that is a good thing and I think it's what good publishers and librarians are attempting to accomplish. The problem for RwS is the lexile scores for style points as I see it. Older books not used for teaching don't get put through the lexile system (The Moon is Down and the Thomas Jefferson), so aren't eligible for style points. Some readers have also mentioned favorite books that they consider adult that have -800 lexile scores(East of Eden) and can't be used for style points. The upset seems to come when a book is read and the reader doesn't think it would be YA and then is surprised not to get combo points (and sometimes offended, I guess, too). I just thought the date idea might avoid this problem. Personally, I am more than content to choose YA I want to read and forego the style points if the lexile is too low. I'm not crazy about lexile scores for a lot of reasons, but I certainly see the value in using them to avoid low level reading to get points. On the other hand, I don't think the quality of the tasks you create or the reading tastes of those who join this group would allow that to happen anyway.

Just one more thing about lexile scores --

If I choose a book outside the predominant US culture like:

Does My Head Look Big In This? I get a lexile of 850. I've read the book and it's a good book about high school life and it's well written, but the 850 score is coming form words like "hijab", not from the overall literary content of the book.

I don't know if that really matters to anyone else, but it's just an example of why the lexiles bug me;)

Karen GHHS wrote: "Some readers have also mentioned favorite books that they consider adult that have -800 lexile scores(East of Eden) and can't be used for style points. The upset seems to come when a book is read and the reader doesn't think it would be YA and then is surprised not to get combo points (and sometimes offended, I guess, too)."

Let me say, I'm not at all offended by anything the moderators have decided. Moderators, you are awesome! And thanks Karen for explaining how the lexile system works.

So, my understanding is that the Lexile lower limit is to encourage people to read higher quality works---which I like. The reason I play RwS is to encourage myself to read higher quality and more diverse works that I would on my own. This as absolutely been the cases. Thanks! I have definitely read some things that would have be neglected in my "To Read" list that are now some of my favorite books.

I will admit that I am a bit miffed that Of Mice and Men qualified for the same points on the same task as another book I read Magic Without Mercy. One was really powerful and not at all what I thought it was going to be and so much better than expected, and the other is a fluffy, fun, junk-food book that I barely admit to reading and won't even take in paperback form to read in the lobby of my son's piano lesson because I am vain. But, I'm miffed in an "angry at the injustice of the universe way" definitely not angry at anything to do with RwS rules or moderators.

One of the things about the YA rule is that it is taken in conjunction with Bloom's canon. Steinbeck's The Grapes of Wrath is on the canon list, so, regardless of whether it is YA or what it's Lexile score is, it can be used for atyle points or the sub-challenge. Not everyone thinks Bloom's canon is the finest list available. But it is the one we use.

I'm not always happy about the selections either. For Fall I hope to read Jackson's The Lottery and Other Stories, and was dismayed to find that not only is it YA Assignment at BPL, but there is no lexile. I don't know whether it would otherwise qualify for any styles because they haven't yet been determined, but I know that when I read it, it will be worth only 20 points. But why oh why did Harold Bloom not include it on the canon? ;-)

While we're on the topic of YA - what do you mods do with books that aren't in the BPL?

I'm wanting to fill up my list with as many Flemish authors as I can you see and I don't think many of them will make it to Brooklyn ;-)

You'd be surprised, Eleanor. If a book is not at BPL, we conclude it doesn't have the YA classification.

This is my long overdue response, which Karen was kind enough to preview since I am using her as an example.

Generally, in any reading challenge, the person that reads the most books wins. Individuals that have more time for reading and individuals that are fast readers will always have an advantage in any kind of reading contest. Participants that choose to read "fast" books -- whether they are YA books, Grisham novels, or books under 200 pages -- inevitably will score higher. RwS was designed to, however imperfectly, level the playing field for readers that were choosing to read "slower" books by awarding points for longer books, older books, "canon" books, foreign books, or non-fiction books.

Personally, I use RwS to help me choose which books to read from the 1001 list. While not necessarily a list of the most literary/difficult works, I suspect very few of them will have a Lexile below 800, even if some of them are considered YA by the BPL. The books I read take a fair amount of focus and require slower reading. I rarely read 30 of these books in 3 months and I don’t think I have ever finished in the top 3 places for RwS. Karen, a school librarian, reads a lot of books (62 so far this challenge!) and I would guess about 75% of the books she posts have been YA. Karen has been one of the top three finishers for every challenge since Winter 2010-11.

I read East of Eden a while back and it took me about 10 hours to read. I just finished reading Rousseau's Confessions, and it took me more than 30 hours to read. Both books were just over 600 pages. In my opinion the content for East of Eden is probably more difficult (Rousseau is a rambling collection of memories/events, not really containing an explanation of his philosophy). The main reason Rousseau was so much harder to read was his lack of overarching plot, his erudite vocabulary, and his long, convoluted sentences. In this, I think Lexile measures get it right -- I want to be better rewarded for reading the Rousseau which took so much longer to read.

If there was a better way to measure the difficulty level for ALL books (Lexile does not generally measure “adult” books), I would use that instead. For now Lexile scores is the closest equivalent, much the same way we assume older books, books in the Western canon, foreign books, or non-novels require more effort and should be rewarded accordingly.

I just want to say it's not all about the points with me, it's the principle. It goes both ways. For instance I read The Jewish War by Josephus Flavius on an audiobook but felt like I should not get Jumbo points as I was sure I didn't read that many by a long shot. However the version on RwS was a print version that was used that said it did. Anyway I (argued?) debated about NOT taking those points as well.

I've been traveling and now in the beautiful city of Salt Lake City for the first time and haven't had a chance to follow up on the discussion until now. So... does the YA no style points standing remain for the Thomas Jefferson Bible? I couldn't really tell but am ready to post two more completed books and need to know what total I needed to add them to. Also does that mean the regular Bible gets no syle points as well?