Jane Austen discussion

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I think I see that some things in this volume are building the larger picture for the volumes to come. Actually O'Brian does a very good job of this. Some series books are just tedious during this process, but not so here.

O'Brian does expository things for us non-naval readers like letting us see how much the annoying Admiral Harte gets more annoying when his captains aren't bringing in prize money -- gives me a picture of how the system works.

Then there is the grog issue. It is funny how O'Brian describes these child sailors like Parslow -- I picture him as this tiny small person, drunk and telling off the captain. Of course this brings in this issue of the grog that is common issue to the crew.

And the problems with Parker's discipline style; the conflict between Jack and Stephen over this. Interestingly, Jack asserts his power over Stephen, telling him he can't just quit over issues like this. I liked how this probably sets up more situations to come.

And finally, how is the ship sailing on these "robber bolts" that don't seem to be actually holding the ship together? ;( They sail along for a while on these apparently as we see in later chapters.

Do any of the companion books to O'Brian's series show a picture of what the Poly would look like? I don't know the history of ship building, so I would love to see what this new type of ship looked like.

I am fascinated with the story. I hope we can all pick back up with this discussion.

Commenting more from Chapter 8 -- this is a dramatic point with all the personal relationships. We really see the weaknesses in everyone here. Back to what we read so often from Austen's world, you can't expect to marry well without money -- Sophie is miserable but accepts this fully and she doesn't want to give up her inheritance because if the circumstances change, she could use her money to help her husband (Jack preferably). I love the way Sophie puts things - about Mr. Bowles "...I feel that if he gasps at me just once more, I shall run my scissors into him."

And I think it is easy to get annoyed with a woman like Diana. O'Brian may be keeping a mystery about her, but for now we see her as a petty, manipulative woman. She knows she stands between two best friends AND she stands between her cousin and the only man SHE loves. To not give in and do the honorable, caring thing in THAT situation makes her pretty darned villainous to me. In addition, she has how many other men following her? You were discussing Stephen's addiction in the general thread, but is THIS Diana's addiction -- sexual power over men?

Other things in this chapter are interesting too, but I am thinking that really overall there is a strong tone of mystery in the O'Brian stories. We aren't given the real backstory of several characters and of course Stephen's life as a spy adds to this also. The mystery elements probably make this story enjoyable even for readers not as interested in the Napoleonic era (or the Austen era!)

Sarah wrote: "O'Brian does expository things for us non-naval readers like letting us see how much the annoying Admiral Harte gets more annoying when his captains aren't bringing in prize money -- gives me a picture of how the system works.

I agree, Sarah. I think that O'Brian finds a pretty good balance between explaining the details of a life/society that is very different than our own and simply presenting the information for us to figure out (or not, as in the case with all the details of rigging and sails!) on our own. He provides these helpful tidbits in a way that is useful to the reader, but not distracting from the story.

Sarah wrote:And the problems with Parker's discipline style; the conflict between Jack and Stephen over this. Interestingly, Jack asserts his power over Stephen, telling him he can't just quit over issues like this. I liked how this probably sets up more situations to come.

The book does show us a new aspect of the relationship between Aubrey and Maturin. There has been conflicts between the two before, but their reactions to the conflicts and to each other and different this time around.

And I cannot even begin to imagine what the Polychrest looks like, except odd.

Sarah wrote: "You were discussing Stephen's addiction in the general thread, but is THIS Diana's addiction -- sexual power over men?"

I don't see it as an addiction for Diana, but almost a necessity. Like Becky Sharp, Diana has found that her ability to exert power, and thus have some form of independence, is dependent on her interactions with (and manipulation of) others. When she is with her Aunt and cousins, she must 'toe the line' and behave in a demure and sisterly manner in order to keep her Aunt happy and ensure her own room and board. However, her interactions with men are much different. Diana's behavior has been learned through her many experiences abroad and has been bolstered by her natural good looks. Unlike so many of our beloved Austen heroines, Diana will not be satisfied with with a life restricted by financial deficiencies. Instead, she takes full advantage of the opportunities she has to gain a life that will provide her with everything she desires. And since men are the key to her financial and social security, she actively pursues them through the most effective means. Although, I do think that there is another side to Diana. A life of relationships that are based on manipulation is empty, and so I think she seeks out other relationships (e.g. Aubrey and Maturin) to compensate this.

And yes, these novels are thick with the fog of mystery!

I was really interested in your statement:
A life of relationships that are based on manipulation is empty, and so I think she seeks out other relationships (e.g. Aubrey and Maturin) to compensate this.

I would love to see this play out at some further point in the story. To see how she really feels about these two men. Your feelings are that she inwardly sees some value to these men, but we aren't seeing that on the surface at all. And we are seeing a woman unconcerned that she has pitted these best friends against each other. The truer Diana may come out -- If we don't see it in this volume and having read no more of the series, I can only wonder. Yes, the mystery..... ha ha

Sarah wrote: "I was really interested in your statement:
A life of relationships that are based on manipulation is empty, and so I think she seeks out other relationships (e.g. Aubrey and Maturin) to compensate ..."

Diana, of course, sees value in Stephen and Jack, as Joy has articulated above.

While Jack and Stephen are friends, I surely wouldn't call them 'best friends' just yet. Would you?

Keep reading the Aubrey-Maturin series over the next few months and years and you'll see what happens with these fellows and the ladies.

Re what the Polychrest looked like-- a 'push-me-pull-you.' You couldn't tell if the damn thing was coming or going. It had a 'bow' where the squared off stern should have been. It would've griped and yawed something miserably. Poor Jack could not have drawn a worse ship from the RN's inventory.

I mean be alone in this, but I am not seeing it with Diana. After a person reads many books in the series, certain things are made clear I suppose, but at this point with Book 2, Diana is troublemaking.

I guess we disagree on the term "best friends" for Stephen and Jack. Well, certainly very closely connected companions both personally and on the ship. And in the chapters ahead we see this tested, but still there (we'll get to that in later threads of course). And I am commenting that IMO, the Girl Code requires that a lady take consideration of that when picking her men. ;}

Sarah wrote: "I mean be alone in this, but I am not seeing it with Diana. After a person reads many books in the series, certain things are made clear I suppose, but at this point with Book 2, Diana is troublem..."

Sarah, I think you are spot-on with the "close companions" label. It is clear that Jack is extraordinarily fond of Stephen, but Stephen is a bit more reticent. He doesn't wear his heart on his sleeve in the same fashion as Jack, does he? As you can likely surmise, over the length of the series, their relationship is one that is long, complicated and enduring. I am so glad that you are enjoying the subtleties of Jack and Stephen's relationship, as well as that between the men and the ladies. These really are some marvelous tales. Cheers!

Christopher wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I mean be alone in this, but I am not seeing it with Diana. After a person reads many books in the series, certain things are made clear I suppose, but at this point with Book 2, Dia..."

I am hooked on this series and well into book 4. I agree that watching the Stephen/Jack relationship is very interesting. Jack is just out there - what you see is what is going on. Stephen has so many layers and shadows and almost has several different personalities. They are so different yet "work" together very well. Diana...well......um, I really like Sophie!

Megan wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Sarah wrote: "I mean be alone in this, but I am not seeing it with Diana. After a person reads many books in the series, certain things are made clear I suppose, but at this po..."

Oh, so you're in the midst of "The Mauritius Command." A great novel, and one of my favorites of the entire series. I think your assessment of Jack and Stephen is absolutely right on, Megan. Like Jack and Stephen, Sophie Williams and Diana Villiers are such completely different creatures, aren't they?

Sarah wrote: "And we are seeing a woman unconcerned that she has pitted these best friends against each other."

There is some sort of underlying unfeelingness to Diana in this respect. It seems very unlikely that she is unaware of the potential harm she can cause by carrying on with both of them, but she doesn't seem to care. Unfortunately, O'Brian provides us with such little access to Diana that we can only guess. Her interiority is a mystery to the reader at this point; she could be pitting the men against one another as a game merely to entertain herself, or she could really be in love with both and can't decide between the two. I don't think that either of these scenarios are true, but it goes to show how much we really don't know about her that both could be!

Joy wrote: "Sarah wrote: "And we are seeing a woman unconcerned that she has pitted these best friends against each other."

There is some sort of underlying unfeelingness to Diana in this respect. It seems ve..."

Joy, you make a good observation about the apparent 'inaccessibility' to 'what makes Diana tick.' This is a fairly common literary technique that O'Brian uses. He doesn't explain things to the reader immediately. It is almost as though he wants you to cogitate on it a while, and then he'll come along later, sometimes much later, even in a subsequent novel, and give you some information that clarifies the back-story. It is almost like real-life when you think about it. How many times do we meet people, develop opinions based upon our own assessments, but can't quite complete the picture; and it is not until we meet someone else, or come across other information, that we are finally able to complete our picture. Cool, huh? Maybe a touch frustrating too?