Victorians! discussion

This is the thread that has been created for the discussion of Part 2 (Week 2) of Thomas Hardy's "Far From the Madding Crowd." Be aware that you may encounter SPOILERS in this discussion thread if you are still reading in the preceding section(s).

Chris, you mentioned Hardy's references to 'scarlet' throughout the novel. When Bethsheba is getting acquainted with her staff, she asks about Temperance and Soberness. Henery describes them as 'Yielding women, as scarlet a pair as ever was'. What exactly did Henery mean ?

Just thought I'd make you all aware of this - I have the Penguin Classics version of this book, and Fiona has the Wordsworth Classics. I am also listening via audiobook.

My audiobook and her Wordsworth both have an additional chapter my Penguin does not have. Her Chapter 17 (All Saints and All Souls) is my Chapter 16. My Chapter 16 is "In the market-place". She has 57 chapters and I have 56. I am missing the All Saints and All Souls chapter.

So even though mine are all sequential, I am missing a chapter! Some of you may be as well. My audiobook was produced by Tantor, speaker is John Lee, and includes the missing chapter.

MadgeUK wrote: "'Yield' is an old English word meaning to 'surrender' or to 'give in' so Henery is here talking about women who surrender themselves to men, or 'scarlet women', fallen women - a reference to the Wh..."

It's amazing the levels of meaning in this novel. Thanks for that note Madge. I've noticed tons of scarlet/red references, and I'm glad Chris pointed that out at the beginning.

Fiona found a link to the missing All Saints and All Souls chapter as well:

http://www.classicreader.com/book/64/16/

Laura wrote: "Fiona found a link to the missing All Saints and All Souls chapter as well:

http://www.classicreader.com/book/64/16/"

Good work, Laura and Fiona, I forgot to mention that in some editions that chapter is missing. Usually it is included in the appendices to the novel. I think with all of the bowdlerization and serial publication issues that Hardy had to deal with, that in some instances the chapter may have been omitted (space-saving, etc.). Personally, I think it is an important chapter to the novel too. Cheers! Chris

Laura wrote: "Just thought I'd make you all aware of this - ... My audiobook and her Wordsworth both have an additional chapter my Penguin does not have. Her Chapter 17 (All Saints and All Souls) is my Chapter 16. My Chapter 16 is "In the market-place". She has 57 chapters and I have 56. I am missing the All Saints and All Souls chapter."

Interesting! This sometimes happened with Victorian novels when the original serial publication numbers were edited for book publication. The novel was originally published in monthly parts in Cornhill Magazine; Hardy edited it (one source says extensively) for the 1895 edition, and further edited it for the 1901 edition. My edition has no introduction (other than Hardy's preface) and no text history, so I haven't been able to tell whether this chapter was in early versions and later omitted, or was added later. Others may have editions that will contain this information.

For those who don't have the chapter, it's an interesting little episode that seems a bit incongruous. It shows Troy arriving at All Saint's church for a wedding, standing at the altar waiting for a bride who doesn't show up, the clergyman and clerk eventually leaving, before Troy leaves the church Fanny suddenly rushing in saying that she had mistaken All Souls Church for All Saints, but she's here now ready for the marriage, but Troy, angry at his public embarrassment refusing to go through with the wedding then, refusing to set another date, and when she asks when they will be married he says "Ah, when? God knows" and leaves the church.

It's a weird little scene, seeming to me out of place and out of character.

Tomlin, in her biography of Hardy, suggests that Hardy intended Bathsheba to be "a heroine who challenges Victorian assumptions about young women..."

Certainly she seems that. A proper young woman wouldn't have contested the extra two pence at the turnstile, and as was noted earlier, the scene of her lying back on her horse (obviously riding not side-saddle as a proper Victorian girl would have) is a good example of how far she differs from the proper Victorian girl model. Plus there's her decision to take the farm into her own hands when she obviously could have afforded a bailiff.

And then there's the Valentine. I doubt that even very many modern young women would send such a valentine to a boy they barely knew. It raises a question in my mind. Is it a brilliant stroke on Hardy's point to show just how impulsive and improper she could be? Or is it a clumsy contrivance to awake Boldwood's interest when his interest in women could have been awakened in some less brazen manner.

And was Boldwood's response reasonable?

In earlier readings of the novel I considered it an out-of-character, clumsy episode. But I am rethinking that, since it serves two important purposes in the novel, the lesser of which is to excite Boldwood's interest. I think what it demonstrates is a side of Bathsheba that hadn't been emphasized to that point. We had seen sides of her in the mirror and horse episodes. We had seen her caring for the cow and the lamb. We had seen her saving Gabriel from suffocation. But this is the first time we have seen her in a girlish-giggle, BFF mode with Liddy. This is not the responsible young woman of the marketplace or farm management. After we see her taking on the mature role of management, we suddenly see this shift into utter girlishness and playful thoughtfulness without any understanding of what effect her play might have. It brings us back to the Bathsheba who flung herself back on a horse and looked at herself in the mirror, reminding us how really, under it all, she is still a bit of a giddy girl.

Everyman wrote: "Laura wrote: "Just thought I'd make you all aware of this - ... My audiobook and her Wordsworth both have an additional chapter my Penguin does not have. Her Chapter 17 (All Saints and All Souls) i..."

This chapter's episode seems to point to Troy's fickleness and his need to exercise control over Fanny. To begin with, Fanny has followed him to this town and doesn't know it well. If Troy had been of more worth, he would have brought Fanny to the church himself. He is so half-minded.

This scene does substantially turn the plot though, so it seems it is better included than not. Odd, huh?

Everyman wrote: "Tomlin, in her biography of Hardy, suggests that Hardy intended Bathsheba to be "a heroine who challenges Victorian assumptions about young women..."

Certainly she seems that. A proper young w..."

I see what you are saying of Bathsheba. And it then seems that Boldwood has his own impulsiveness. He also seems a man of desperation and obsessiveness - to be driven forward by this Valentine card.

It all seems a bit silly to me the little game the two of them (Bathsheba and Bloodwood are playing) Do either one of them know love? It seems so very childish of them to think that they would marry "Will you marry me?" He wants to marry,( what after two or three meetings) and then she doesn't. It is all so banal. Perhaps I am naive as to the customs of the Victorians or is this Hardy's way to show how ridiculous his characters and thus the times can be? I wonder if either of them has a head on their shoulders.

The only one right now who seems to have a brain is Gabriel. He calls Bathsheba out for her foolishness and is fired because he dared tell the truth. I am thinking right now, that I do not like either Bathsheba or Bloodwood. They both are too whimsical and thoughtless.

Am I reading this incorrectly?

Marialyce wrote: "I am thinking right now, that I do not like either Bathsheba or Bloodwood. They both are too whimsical and thoughtless.

Am I reading this incorrectly? "

I would never presume to say that anybody is reading something incorrectly. At best, I can only say that I read it differently.

As to Bathsheba, I agree with you that she is both whimsical and thoughtless.

But as to Boldwood, he is many things, but I don't see that whimsical or thoughtless among them. He seems to me the opposite of whimsical -- he seems very serious. He has thought about this a great deal, and it seems to me that his problem is that his thinking is dictating his feelings.

Everyman wrote: 'I don't see whimsical or thoughtless among them.... '



I agree Everyman and with your previous analysis. I also think we have to remember that these were times when men and women did not mix as freely as we do today and that ideas about the sexes and 'Love' were very idealised. It was the age of high romanticism which to us, in our wordliness, can seem naive. Bathsheba's act in sending the Valentine was a good example of this naivety and Boldwood, a lonely man, formerly 'crossed in love', took the Valentine much more seriously than was intended. There is also an element of melodrama in the portrayal of Boldwood at this point in the novel and this was perhaps more to the taste (and understanding) of Victorian readers than our own. This melodrama may precede Hardy setting up Boldwood as the traditional villain.

Marialyce asks 'Do either of them know Love?': We are told that Boldwood was formerly in love and had a broken engagement but Bathsheba has not known love and is an innocent in matters of the heart. Therein lies the problem.

Everyman wrote: "It's a weird little scene...'

It seems a contrived scene to me and I am wondering if Hardy's editor asked him to add it to show that Troy's intentions were 'honourable', that he wasn't just an immoral seducer and that Fanny Robin had been promised marriage? This partly rescues both their characters from a Victorian p.o.v. but leaves the plot open for other developments.

If the scene of the "almost wedding" was meant to show honorable intentions, it seems to have done the opposite. Troy seems to come away as a total cad. It might have shown more in favor of Fanny though, that she believed this man was soon-to-be her husband and her actions were due to that belief.

And Boldwood's misunderstanding of the Valentine may fall within a Victorian kind of construction in the story, but even today can be looked at as a person carrying himself far beyond reality and how badly it can upset the balance of this circle of people --aided by Bathsheba of course. I think in this way, we can look at the story in a very timeless sense.

I guess I felt that there ought to be a more serious tone to being ready to marry. Bathsheba seems to be a tease and she wants ever so much for ALL the men to look at her, admire her, and "fall in love" with her. I can really see the vanity issue now.

Bloodwood, for an older man, seems just plain anxious to marry. Is he afraid to be left in his old age, alone and without a wife to care for him? So, I guess that is where I thought the whimsy came in.

I do see your points Everyman, Madge, and Sarah, however. Again, I need to remember to look at this story from whence it came and not with so strict a pair of 21st century eyes.

As for the semi wedding scene. It did seem very contrived and somewhat ridiculous. From what I could gather, Troy stood at the altar for an hour (?) waiting for Fanny. Why ever would a stilted groom do such a thing? Did he purposely tell Fanny the wrong church in order to disengage himself from this marriage and then pretend to be furious in order to do so?

"Bathsheba was no schemer for marriage, nor was she deliberately a trifler with the affections of men..." The key word is "deliberately." She may not intend to trifle with Boldwood or Oak, but she doesn't avoid it. She hasn't learned all that a young woman should have learned about how to behave. Gabriel's scolding pretty sharply points that out.

So I don't find Bathsheba to be a tease in this section. She's inexperienced and thoughtless and clumsy. She's never felt the passion that the two men feel and so doesn't fully understand her power over them.

Must have missed that line, Kathy! Thank you for your input. (I still do not care for her though!) :)

I have noted with interest, all of your responses to the little pas de deaux between Bathsheba and Boldwood over the Valentine. I think the thing to pay attention to is Farmer Boldwood's response and his overall behavior with respect to receiving the Valentine and his perceived interpretation of its meaning. This is very telling, and I believe that Everyman's observation of--

"He seems to me the opposite of whimsical -- he seems very serious. He has thought about this a great deal, and it seems to me that his problem is that his thinking is dictating his feelings."

is spot-on, i.e., in that he almost 'thinks too much'.

And speaking of 'Boldwood,' how many of you have given any thought to Hardy's naming of this character? Whilst he shares a name that superficially rings with strength and character, he seems quite shy and almost introverted, in my opinion. Although he is almost 'bold,' isn't he, when he deliberately seeks out Bathsheba at the sheep-washing pool, and makes his proposal?

I, myself, very much like Bathsheba's character in this novel. She is determined to make it as a farmer--in fact, she proposes 'to astonish them all.' She is actually quite adept at competently assuming the role of mistress and acquiring the respect of her workers, and also does quite well in the Corn Market scene. Yes, she is certainly naive when it comes to Love, but she's learning, isn't she?

I am out of pocket for the next couple of days, as my little grandson is in town with us. We are doing Disneyland and Legoland with the little fellow. I shall try and get back to all of you on Thursday night. I look forward to reading more of your responses and observations! Cheers! Chris

I am more sympathetic towards Troy in the church scene. It would surely have been been very embarrassing for a young man to have been publicly kept waiting in this way, with everyone sniggering behind his back. It was enough to make anyone cross, let alone a proud young man. It can be seen as being to his credit that he waited for such a long time without walking away in anger. That is why I see the scene as partly 'rescuing' his character.

Thanks, Marialyce. I don't disagree, by the way, that she plainly desires and responds to admiration.

Chris: The corn market scene where, just like in the movies (except there weren't any movies), everyone falls silent and turns to look at her! I also just love the conversation between Libby and Bathsheba on the ride home. Libby as the "yes man." Very funny.

I envy Chris his trip to Legoland! It's such a fun place to take a little one!

Have fun Chris! We'll see you when you return.

"Did he purposely tell Fanny the wrong church in order to disengage himself from this marriage and then pretend to be furious in order to do so? "

It didn't seem so that way to me -- as I read it, Fanny knew the name of the right church, but just made a mistake. "I thought the church with the spire was All Saints', and I was at the door at half-past eleven to the minute as you said. I waited till a quarter to twelve, and found then that I was in All Souls'. But I wasn't much frightened, for I thought it could be to-morrow as well. "

Sounds to me like it was entirely her mistake, and that Troy was ready to go through with the marriage and would have if she had gone to the right church.

She's better off without him if he's willing to abandon the marriage over a misunderstanding - in my opinion.

Laura wrote: "She's better off without him if he's willing to abandon the marriage over a misunderstanding - in my opinion."

That is the way it seems to me Laura. Troy doesn't get credit -- he chose not to marry her -- it wasn't her choice. It just seems to show his changeable nature.

I imagine if I was Fanny, or if Fanny were my daughter -- and her so-called love had done this to her.

Laura wrote: "She's better off without him if he's willing to abandon the marriage over a misunderstanding - in my opinion."

Well, wait until you see what happens to her before you say that was better for her.

Everyman wrote: "Laura wrote: "Just thought I'd make you all aware of this - ... My audiobook and her Wordsworth both have an additional chapter my Penguin does not have. Her Chapter 17 (All Saints and All Souls) i..."

Everyman I don't know if this is even right at all what I tell you. Anyhow, when I read the intro of my version it did say that Hardy's plots were in layered webs were time, event, chance, and desire do not often coalesce in a straight line. Then later when Hardy described the watch it said the minutes where told with percison , nobody could be quite certain the hour they belonged to. I thought maybe Hardy's was telling us more about the way he tell us things.

Not to say that not marrying him was better than death (if she winds up dying), just saying that she deserves to be with someone who truly loves her. A true love wouldn't abandon a marriage so quickly. He's a cat-about-town, he has no real desire to settle down, in my view.

Is it too early for predictions? Who do we think she'll wind up with? Personally I'm hoping Gabriel wins out. But not being all that crazy about Bathsheba, I'm not sure I want him to wind up w her.

Laura wrote: "Is it too early for predictions? Who do we think she'll wind up with? Personally I'm hoping Gabriel wins out. But not being all that crazy about Bathsheba, I'm not sure I want him to wind up w her."

I feel the same way, Laura, about Bathsheba. I like the sensical man that Gabriel is He is strong and not afraid to call things as he sees them. I appreciate his frankness and his manner.

Laura wrote: "Is it too early for predictions? Who do we think she'll wind up with? Personally I'm hoping Gabriel wins out. But not being all that crazy about Bathsheba, I'm not sure I want him to wind up w her."

This is Hardy, not Austen. If it were Austen, it would all come out right in the end. Even Trollope or Dickens, mostly. But Hardy -- well, think of the endings of Tess, Jude, Mayor of Casterbridge, and ask yourselves how likely it is that things will come up roses.

Oh I don't know Everyman, although his own inclinations seem to have been for unhappy, 'realistic' endings, his Victorian public had other ideas and this was his first serialised novel!:)

Rebecca wrote: "...maybe Hardy was telling us more about the way he tells us things..."

That's a nice little observation Rebecca. Thanks!

Laura wrote: "She's better off without him if he's willing to abandon the marriage over a misunderstanding - in my opinion."

I think we also have to bear in mind that Troy was in the army and they were about to go overseas, so time was at a premium with him.

I have highlighted many pieces that stuck me as ever so telling for example "It appears that ordinary men take wives because possession is not possible without marriage, and that ordinary women accept husbands because marriage is not possible without possession: with totally different aims the method is the same on both sides."

The use of the word possession haunts me.

I also loved some of the similes and metaphors he uses. "...love was encircling her like a perfume" "...it lighted him up as the moon lights up a great tower." "A figure was visible, like the black snuff in the midst of a candle flame." "The whole effect resembled a sunset as childhood resembles age." "Over the west hung the wasting moon, now dull and greenish-yellow, like tarnished brass." and my favorite, "Liddy, like a little brook though shallow was always rippling; her presence had not so much weight as to task thought, and yet enough to exercise it.

and
I am not sure of what this means. "The cabala of this erotic philosophy seemed to consist of the subtlest meanings expressed in misleading ways."

and I love this one. "Women seem to have eyes in their ribbons for such matters as these."

Great finds Mariadyce - thanks!

I think possession in this case means sexual possession as well as a woman being the legal possession of a man.

Everyman wrote: "Laura wrote: "Is it too early for predictions? Who do we think she'll wind up with? Personally I'm hoping Gabriel wins out. But not being all that crazy about Bathsheba, I'm not sure I want him t..."

This is my first Hardy, Everyman, but I do plan to read more. ;)

So, in these chapters, Fanny wants marriage and it looks like she can't get it. Bathsheba doesn't want marriage and has been peppered with proposals.

Would Victorian readers have thought Bathsheba somehow unnatural or wicked for not wanting marriage?

To me, it makes perfect sense. She's young and capable. She's not in love with anyone. She's enjoying being the boss. Why give all that up when there's nobody around that you want to marry anyway? But I live in 2010. What would readers in 1874 have made of it?

Kathy wrote: "Would Victorian readers have thought Bathsheba somehow unnatural or wicked for not wanting marriage? "

I'm not sure about wicked, but certainly unnatural. But she was in a very unusual position, having slid into not only wealth, which wasn't all that rare for a young woman, but also into a career, which was. For a woman of wealth to actually work was simply not the case. Servants, of course, worked, as did poor gentry, usually working as governesses or companions. But for a young woman to have enough income from the farm to live comfortably on, but to choose to take control of the farm and manage it herself -- certainly highly unusual. Which means that her marital situation also would have been very unusual. She didn't need to marry either for enough money to live on or for occupation to fill her empty old-maid hours.

I find I ponder more about Bathsheba's character the more I reread the chapters. When she realizes she has caught Boldwood's attention in Chap. 17 (p.107 in mine) she thinks "this is a triumph." But just below that she is actually "repenting" that she has pulled this trick because she respected Boldwood highly. So she seems such a mix of thoughts and reactions. I think her youth and, as Gabriel says, her vanity really drive her in this story. So you mix that with a certain amount of strength (desire to manage the farm herself) and you have a very interesting character, don't you?

More about Boldwood in Chapters 18 and 19. I liked that interesting little part at the beginning of 18, describing how Boldwood is pretty elevated in the community -- he was the "nearest approach to aristocracy in the parish." So he is seen as kind of mild and genteel by outsiders, but they don't know him. And then more about the his infatuation or obsession with Baths. Hardy talks about Boldwood's idealization of love and "the accident of lover and loved-one not being on visiting terms." He doesn't even know Bathsheba, they have not been in society together (well she is new to the community), and it sounds if she would have been enough removed from him by nature and personality that they might never have conversed much normally either.

I am sorry to say I find her irksome. She seems to be a manipulator. She wants the men to adore her from afar and yet she seems so "unaware" of the response she generates in the males around her.

I know I am in a minority here, but I still find her to be a tease. The further I read, the more I am convinced of it. Perhaps I am looking through jaded eyes and colored by the women of today.

I think I compare Bathsheba's to modern situations and modern "manners" too, Marialyce. Is she manipulating or just inexperienced? And maybe if you don't know a person, --because did anyone in the town really know Boldwood?-- you might underestimate your effect on him.

I think she does have quite an idea of her effect on Gabriel though -- Chap. 20 "the argument" between them -- you see it there. When we talk about Chap. 22 in the next thread, it is pretty clear there too. One possibility is that maybe neither Baths or Gabriel know how to deal with their attraction because they have accepted that he is not of her station at this point in the story.

So I actually think more critically of how she treats Boldwood and doesn't put a stop to it -- she does lead him on. I think she understands she is doing that to some degree even if she is inexperienced. Because she says so, doesn't she? -- I forget where in this section.

Sarah wrote: "I think I compare Bathsheba's to modern situations and modern "manners" too, Marialyce. Is she manipulating or just inexperienced? And maybe if you don't know a person, --because did anyone in the ..."

Sarah, I do think you have the right of Bathsheba. Sure, she knows that she is perhaps a bit too flirtatious, but I certainly wouldn't call her 'manipulative.' Bathsheba is really quite inexperienced in this business of 'Love.' Interesting, to me, to consider that she is much more confident in her interactions (including flirtations) with Gabriel Oak than she is with Boldwood. Farmer Boldwood is a much more mysterious and 'murky' personality to her than good old solid Gabriel (who wears his heart on his sleeve).

Look at the situation with the Valentine--

Had she sent the Valentine to Gabriel it probably would have elicited a 'snort' and a snarky rejoinder; but with Boldwood look what it has started. Hmmmm...

Personally, I think Bathsheba is a delightfully fresh, and vitally alive young woman trying to make it in a profession that is a predominantly male domain. I love Bathsheba's character in the novel! But I am biased, I am an unabashed fan of all of the heroines in Hardy's novels. They are all quite amazing women!

Sarah wrote: "I think I compare Bathsheba's to modern situations and modern "manners" too, Marialyce. Is she manipulating or just inexperienced? And maybe if you don't know a person, --because did anyone in the ..."

Sarah, I know that some think Bathsheba to be "naive", but even naivete tells a young lady not to go off meeting a young man who professes his love for you after the first meeting. What is she thinking? She is a farm girl and she has witnessed the attractions between the animals. She obviously was not raised in a box.

I guess I think that the men here are defending her actions and attributing it to her backwardness in her inexperience. I still find that hard to believe. Is she a simpleton who has no idea of anything? Even today young girls are well aware of what their karma is in respect to the males they are in contact with. I am trying to say that this is a natural instinct. (feeling)

I will continue to read and see if my opinion changes and of course I know that this is all conjecture on our part. (Sorry to rant because I think that is what I may be doing!)

Yes, Marialyce, I hate to use Shakespeare, but (sotto voce) 'methinks the Lady doth protesteth too much?' Eh?

Young girls, young women, and even older women are flirtatious; and it sometimes lands them in deep trouble. It happens. I find it quite hard, if not impossible, to condemn outright all women regardless of whether they've seen animals mate or not. I do not find, in any way shape or form, that Bathsheba is a lesser woman for it.

Bathsheba is not "a simpleton." As I said, I believe her to be a strong-willed and quite smart young woman; and not just because "I am defending her actions." She may not be the moral 'watch-dog' here, but she certainly isn't the agent of immorality either. I think we know who fits that bill to a 'T.' My opinion-- Bathsheba is passionate and she's vulnerable. Neither of which deserve condemnation, in my humble opinion.

I think that each of us can find the 'Bathshebas' in our lives who have encountered situations just like she encounters. Frankly, these encounters are not just confined to the female sex either. Hardy is putting a woman in a place that Victorian authors didn't place women--in positions of authority and responsibility--and, at the same time, he recognizes the femininity of her heart and soul. I say, 'Bravo!'

Marialyce, I can't make you like her, nor do I want to; but I'd sure like for you to think about her position as a very young woman with extraordinary responsibilities and not too much experience. Frankly, I think she does pretty well.

I appreciate your opinions, and I welcome your take on all of this.

Cheers! Chris

I'm just weighing in on the matter of the valentine. It seems to me to show not her naivete, unless one simply means "youth." She is a little irritated that he did not look at her or seem impressed at the corn market, so she thinks it would be fun to irritate him a little. If, as people report, he has no sense of fun or flirtatiousness, then a young, careless person might likely see him as deserving to have his dignity a little reduced. I think she means to humiliate him a little, because he didn't recognize her beauty as the other men did. However, he is a middle aged man, and as the narrator points out, he has no mother or sisters to interpret or illustrate female behavior for him. He is unable to take it as a prank gone rather too far. I don't think it makes Bathsheba a "bad" or unkind person. She just isn't aware enough of the various types of people in the world to realize the possible effects of her actions.

Andrea wrote: "I'm just weighing in on the matter of the valentine. It seems to me to show not her naivete, unless one simply means "youth." She is a little irritated that he did not look at her or seem impress..."

Andrea, I think you are perfectly correct. Liddy and Bathsheba are simply having fun; having no awareness, whatsoever, of the potential long-term consequences of their actions. This is something that happens to each of us each and every day, isn't it? Very well seen, Andrea.

Cheers! Chris

Christopher wrote: "Yes, Marialyce, I hate to use Shakespeare, but (sotto voce) 'methinks the Lady doth protesteth too much?' Eh?

Young girls, young women, and even older women are flirtatious; and it sometimes lands..."

Good summary Chris! We know that Gabriel is 28 but do we know how old Bathsheba is - I think of her as around 19 which is extraordinarily young for someone with such responsibility. She lost her parents at an early age so has not had the advantage of a woman's guidance and then she suddenly became an heiress in a man's world, with many responsibilities.

When I was a young woman I certainly sent Valentines frivolously, without a thought to the effect they might have on their recipients and I think Hardy is only showing a Victorian young woman doing the same thing, with the connivance of her young maid. It was a bit of fun in an otherwise hardworking life. I find Boldwood at fault for taking it so seriously, for 'making a mountain out of a molehill'. Bathsheba behaves foolishly afterwards, as Gabriel tells her but she is caught 'between a stone and a hard place' because of Boldwood's extraordinary ardour, which is in great contrast to the way that Gabriel takes Bathsheba's rebuff at the beginning of the novel, even though he too was greatly disappointed.

I think Hardy is trying to portray the many difficulties which women faced in Victorian society, particularly if they stepped into a man's world. They had to behave in a very circumspect way, a way which we can scarcely imagine today. If Bathsheba does not have the background of a Victorian 'well brought up' young woman, she will be all at sea in this new world she has inherited.

MadgeUK wrote: "Christopher wrote: "Yes, Marialyce, I hate to use Shakespeare, but (sotto voce) 'methinks the Lady doth protesteth too much?' Eh?

Young girls, young women, and even older women are flirtatious; an..."

Madge, I couldn't agree more; and I believe you're right about Bathsheba's age, I think it was 19 or 20.