Fantasy Book Club Series discussion

I posted this in a comment section of my review of this book and decided it might generate some discussion from folks who have made it this far.

***SPOILERS***


Some musings on light and shadow:

It occurred to me that in terms of Jung's concept of 'consciousness = light; and shadow = dark', the wars of light and shadow become very interesting. It's a Jungian axiom that the brighter the 'light', the deeper the 'shadow.' In these terms, as this story progresses, Lysaer, as he becomes more powerful and his skills at diplomacy and statecraft and his charisma persuade more and more Atherans to his way, his shadow begins to get very dark indeed. Dragon skulls, necromancy, telepathy - god knows what else are beginning to rear their heads into the story. Lysaer is afraid of the dark, has nightmares about it, keeps light in his surroundings at all times. And it's no wonder, considering the horrors he has wrought in the name of justice.

Arithon, on the other hand, carries his shadow as a huge burden. He beats himself up for things that are none of his fault (a quality fraught with codependency and neurosis). His only light is his music which has become a replacement for his lost mage skills. He cannot see the benefits within his own shadow.

Jung considered our shadows to be made up of all the things we prefer not to know about ourselves. He also maintained that there is much treasure to be found in shadow and that it is in our benefit to explore it.

I'm very curious to see how Janny is going to wrap this all up.

Very interesting idea Sandra. You're a lot more into philosohy, than I ever was.

I think it's interesting that Lysaer's light as such is noticed by pretty much everyone on Athera, but they haven't really recognized that he has a shadow and that is is growing larger. With what I've read so far in Peril's Gate, he's definitely getting into some dark stuff. Having a fanatic religion based on him and his compulsions can't lead to anything good. It looks like it's becoming a power trip. I thought it was interesting how Cerebold was getting jeolous of Lysaer's son when he quells the fears in Athera.

I also find it very interesting how Janny is playing with our ideas of light and shadow. Usually light is good and shadows are scary because it is unknown. I like the idea that we should explore in the shadows. If the the Unknown, the New, the Unexpected and Mysteries are found in Shadows, wouldn't that actually be the best place to be? The light would just be showing off the familiar, the routine, the known. That doesn't sound very exciting to me.

Amelia wrote: "Very interesting idea Sandra. You're a lot more into philosohy, than I ever was.

I think it's interesting that Lysaer's light as such is noticed by pretty much everyone on Athera, but they ha..."

There you are! I was a loner haunting the boards this weekend.

I agree that Lysaer is getting into some very dark stuff, indeed. Setting oneself up as 'divine' is pretty arrogant. The one time I've agreed with Lirenda is when she called him an arrogant butcher in Fugitive Prince! Yes!

And yes, I just reread the scene with Cerebold was jealous of Kevor. Very interesting.

And Morriel? Whew!

Absolutely, in the shadows lie the interesting stuff. All that blinding white is very boring. :)

I wonder if it's part of Lysaer's 'shadow' personality that he only looks at the known, ie. what's in the light of his shining gift of justice. Perhaps that's the two sided nature of 'light'. He dismisses all idea that his vendetta against Arithon is a result of the curse. Not only would it be uncomfortable to challenge something so central to his being as his hatred of his half brother, but it would cripple his ambition and his political goals. Without this mission of saving the innocents from the evil of 'fell sorcery' (What does that mean anyway?) Lysaer would have no reason to be divine, to stir the adulation and fervor of thousands, to gad about in his elegant clothes dripping with jewels, :), would he?

Yeah, I don't get on much during the weekend. I usually check it at work. By the time I get home, I want to do the actual reading.

I think you've got it right about Lysaer not looking into the unknown. He hasn't studied Athera's history to understand the compact between the Fellowship and the Paravians. (At least the Koriani understand what they're doing when they're wrecking the world - that makes it worse, doesn't it?) He doesn't understand what his role as High King really would mean. He just acts on what he thinks is important without really considering the consequences. Plus he doesn't allow any of the blame of these terrible slaughters to fall on him. It doesn't matter that he was the aggressor, he is doing all he can to rid the world of the "Spinner of Darkness". He doesn't listen to any voice of reason, even when it came to him in the persona of the one he loved more than anyone, Talith. In his opinion, she wasn't giving him advice, she had been suborned by the enemy.

You've given me a lot to think about.

In posting a comment in the Peril's Gate section, it occurred to me that perhaps the shadow side of compassion like Arithon has is that it drives on to try to be perfectly compassionate. In terms of the book, it depends on what kind of characters Arithon and Lysaer's will ultimately become, but if they remain human, then there's no such thing as 'perfect compassion' except from God. Whatever you might believe God to be. This is also true of Justice. In the human realm, there is no such thing as perfect justice. Humanity is drive to all kinds of weird one sided behavior in trying to achieve those things.

Hmmm, come to think of it, these geas that the princes are gifted with from their lineage could really be considered curses in some ways, couldn't they? It's starting to make my brain hurt to think about it, so I'm going to quit. Maybe someone smarter than I can elaborate on this.

I've always thought that the geas would work best if they worked in cooperation with each other. Alone, they become skewed and don't function to their maximum capacity. Together I would think it becomes more of a check and balace system.

Lysaer's Justice could be balanced by some mercy and compassion. Arithon could relieve some of his guilf from his compassion with help from the other traits.

I can't remember what the other ones are. I remember reading them somewhere. Maybe someone else can remind me.

Amelia wrote: "I've always thought that the geas would work best if they worked in cooperation with each other. Alone, they become skewed and don't function to their maximum capacity. Together I would think it ..."

Here you go:

s'Lornmein - Temperence
s'Ffalenn - Compassion
s'Ilessid - Justice
s'Ahelas - Farsight
s'Ellestrion - Wisdom (line extinct)

Thanks Janny.

Here's something else I've always wondered about. If both Lysaer and Arithon have the s'Ahelas gift of farsight, but neither one is the appointed heir to that line, is there someone back in Dascen Elur who can take up those responsibilities?

Amelia wrote: "Thanks Janny.

Here's something else I've always wondered about. If both Lysaer and Arithon have the s'Ahelas gift of farsight, but neither one is the appointed heir to that line, is there som..."

I can think of several passages from the series books themselves that could answer this for you - anybody in the appropriate place with a keen eye?

I know that there must be someone that can take up that role because Arithon is the only one that is the sole heir to his line (not including the one that doesn't have a living heir.)

Would those passages be back in CotM?

I thought it mentioned in several places that they're both the last of their line.

And it does seem like each is half of a greater whole, doesn't it?

Sandra aka Sleo wrote: "I thought it mentioned in several places that they're both the last of their line.

No, I think it's mentioned several times that the F7 (at least) know that Arithon is the last s'Ffalenn, while they know that there's s'Ilessid people left on Dascen Elur.

And, I found a reference to s'Ahelas :). In Peril's Gate, Arithon's first memory (XV, p.524). Arithon's cousin Jorey is taunting him:
Clever and blond as his s'Ahelas father, the older boy was already firmed in his talent.
So, at least Jorey is of s'Ahelas line. I'd think it likely there are others at Rauven...


Sandra aka Sleo wrote:And it does seem like each is half of a greater whole, doesn't it?"

Yes, I agree. Perhaps all of the royal lines were supposed to work jointly, using their respective gifts to make a great whole?

Amelia wrote: "I know that there must be someone that can take up that role because Arithon is the only one that is the sole heir to his line (not including the one that doesn't have a living heir.)

Would th..."

There is another reference in Mistwraith to the fact that yes, there are more of Lysaer's relations alive on Dascen Elur - you'd look for that in the scene where Asandir and Maenalle have their private talk about the succession, when the princes reach the outpost at the Pass of Orlan. This would be the subchapter An Arrival, in Ch. Set VII, Pass of Orlan.

I remember that chapter and thinking, who are these people. That would definitely be a good section to reread, now that I know who they are and why they would be watching Lysaer and Arithon as well as others in Dascen Elur.

Amelia wrote: "I remember that chapter and thinking, who are these people. That would definitely be a good section to reread, now that I know who they are and why they would be watching Lysaer and Arithon as wel..."

Such a look backward would illuminate quite a lot, I suspect. The experience of you readers who've moved deeper into the series would open so much, in discussion of the first title!

I just reread this sub chapter and see it states unequivocally there other s'Ilessid kinsmen in Dascen Elur. The Tier s'Ffalenn is the last of his line.

But what about other s'Ahelas? Is Kevor s'Illessid a potential s'Ahelas king, too? And there should be others of the family on Dascen Elur.

And I wonder, will we see more of Grithen, of the family of the earls of Erdane???

Thank you for this most interesting thread (but Siv, please next time do not spoil from further books, ack!)!

Kevor would be tied to his s'Illessid heritage, he could not be king for Shand. There are plenty of other s'Ahelas on Dascen Elur that have not got the entanglements of two royal lines. Fellowship ever need one they can reopen the gates and ask the most suitable for the job if they would return.

I have my doubts a Rauvan mage would have much interest in kingship though. Think back on what Arithons grandfather told Arithon when he accepted his fathers inheritance. Maybe they could find one interested though, you never know.

It was mentioned in CotM that mastery of shadow, coupled with an enchanter’s discipline, gave Arithon potential means to reject the constraints of his birthright. But Janny has not got to that yet.

Curse of the Mistwraith is the book with the seeds of all the things to come, in my opinion. I've not reread it yet, but from my notes, I noticed how skillfully little bits there flowered in great scenes or protagonist elements later. I loved the reasoning there, and later in Merior for example, about the pitfalls of power and mage talent, the discrepancy between the calls. And then of course there is the whole thing of how the bloodlines exiled in Dascen Elur acquired elemental magic, a rarity, if ever seen -if I recall correctly-, in Athera. One of the most fascinating aspects, this conflict.

Not sure about Kevor anyway. Surely the fact he is an Ath adept now doesn't go in favor of him ever accepting a crown, and it wasn't told what became of him during Initiate's Trial. As far as I understood, Ath's adept may be blessed with prolonged life. We also don't know what happened in Dascen Elur to Rauven after Arithon left, we are told in the FAQ on Janny website what eventually happened to leaderless Karthan, but not to Arithon's relatives.

This topic was for Grand Conspiracy, so Kevor is still a s'Illessid Prince. But no matter what happens in Peril's Gate, I am sure he will be around for a very long time. I would think Destiny's Conflict would include a peek at how Ath's Adepts are doing.


And just about all the books have hints of what is to come, which are not that obvious on the first few re-reads. Then there are the more obvious things like prophecies, legends, and where magic is described in detail.

Grand Conspiracy had some very good ones. One I was looking at last night.

Mainmere wore legends whose truths were no man’s to unlock.

I am pretty sure I know who it will be, and she is not a man, that's for sure. Never guessed it before I had read Initiate's Trial, then re-read the bit about the Mainmere ruins in Grand Conspiracy. Janny has a fair few hints like that. And yes she set them up right from the first book, planned everything in advance, knowing where she was going with it all.

*Grin* Now, I need to look into this one! Ah, the foreshadowing and the full design, one of the delights of this series.

And I really hope to read more about the Adepts in Destiny's Conflict, too! It is a very intriguing faction, and not easy to grasp.

Cannot wait!

Despite all the hints we have gotten over the years, I some how think there will be some surprises when we eventually see the full picture, and how Shadow and light fitted into it all.

Yes! If I have a certainty, it is that surprises are never in short supply with this series, the thing I like is that when they come, it is never out of the blue because of the foreshadowing and still surprises nonetheless! How i love that!!