Book Club discussion

How did you first become published?



Did you use an agent? If so, how did you find him/her?

I didn't have an agent. My first publication was with an e-publisher. I had an agent after I had a contract with a different publisher, but just having a contract doesn't guarantee getting an agent. We've since parted ways, but one "perk" of an agent is that the rejections come much faster, and they're much friendlier.

Terry
Terry's Place
Romance with a Twist--of Mystery

My first book, Born of War ... Dedicated to Peace, was a work for hire.

My first novel, In The Eye of The Beholder: A Novel of The Phantom of the Opera, was initially self-published as an eBook. Then, a friend in the UK sent a letter of introduction to her publisher on my behalf -- which put my manuscript at the top of his slush pile and resulted in my contract there. About 10 months later, I was contacted by a US publisher who wanted to pick it up and the US release was almost a year to the day after the UK edition came out.

I've since self-published two more eBooks, and have not used an agent.

I meant to mention that agents are also able to intervene on the author's behalf for all those 'business' things, leaving the author time to write instead of dealing with legalese. It's nice to have someone on your side, and agents know who to talk to (or they're not competent) when it comes to pushing your work. They don't get paid unless you do, so they should be motivated to get your work published.

Self-publishing, of course, is another game altogether.

Terry
Terry's Place
Romance with a Twist--of Mystery

I'm not published yet, but I want to go the traditional route. I haven't landed an agent yet, but I'm sending out queries. So far, I've run into the same problem that Nanette mentioned––agents saying that the writing is solid, but the subject matter is "too dark". I also agree that politically correct writing is useless; if I can't picture someone getting angry over something I'm writing, I won't write it. ;) Guess I just have to wait for an agent who gets it. The length of my manuscript is also an issue. I didn't find out until recently what a difference the length makes, so now I have to cut about a third out of my manuscript. Oops.

Thanks Nanette. Good luck to you too! I know what you mean. It seems to be difficult to find an agent who wants to represent something darker. Also my book is YA, so I think agents are concerned that kids won't read it because of its length and somewhat dark nature––which I don't understand since teens seem to eat up the long and/or dark stuff. I mean, I'm 17 years old and I (and my friends) much prefer dark and/or controversial books over the PC ones. Your explanation makes sense. Although recently I've been in contact with a young agent who expressed some interest in my book. She requested revisions since the writing is "too heavy" and I agree with her ... But she said the book has a killer premise and that I have a lot of talent. I shared some of my other work with her (which is also dark) and she said there was a lot of potential in those stories too. So, I'm slightly more hopeful now. *Fingers crossed*

I've had an agent, but she never sold anything for me. I sold all three of my published books myself.

Sharon, Have you been happy with self-publishing?
-Carolynn

Publishing question... I'm hoping for much good advice! As a reviewer of 5 years now, I know of many publishing houses. When a book comes for reviewing, they often send along contact information for an agent or publishing company- and I've kept them all in a binder.

Now that our book is finished, I'm wondering how to proceed: Would it be appropriate to send out letters to those people? Does one simply do a google search and send out letters? Do emails work, or do old-fashioned in-the-mail and in-the-hand letters work better? Is self-publishing a good way to go, or does it still have a stigma attached to it?

And, in the event that someone does choose to pick it up, what can we reasonably expect to earn from it?

I feel that I have a little toe in the water here, as a reviewer, but it is just one little toe. I haven't taken the plunge yet myself. It is more than a little overwhelming. And while we both have the confidence that our little witch book is good, we just don't know where to go with it!

Any advice in how to get it published would be very much appreciated!

Thanks all!
-Carolynn

Carolynn wrote: "Sharon, Have you been happy with self-publishing?
-Carolynn"

As I mentioned, I only self-published my eBooks; I have contracts in the UK and the US for my novel, and one for my upcoming memoir.

My first experience with self-publishing the eBooks was a horror show; I had to get the Better Business Bureau involved to get my royalties. It was ridiculous. I changed to a new service and have been very happy with it.

Thank you, Sharon!

My co-author, Heather Poinsett Dunbar, had written a manuscript originally titled "The Philosopher's Stone", which combined elements of historical fiction and fantasy with urban fantasy (some of it was set in the modern world while about half of it, in the form of flashbacks, was set in the ancient world.

She had marketed the story to several agents and publishers, and about five of 100+ had an interest. One of them really liked the ancient world content and recommended focusing on that subject matter for the story, since lots of people were doing urban fantasy in the modern world.

I convinced Heather that we both needed to do a complete re-write, and our new manuscript was born. Once finished with the manuscript, which was nearly the equivalent of 700 pages if formatted for a 6x9 trade paperback book, we both marketed it to agents and publishers, starting with those that had expressed an interest prior.

Lo and behold to our amazement that our editor knew people at a publishing company who were interested in considering our manuscript as a cornerstone work; they specialized in dark fantasy manga and graphic novels, but wanted to branch out into novels using our works as a launching point. We were scheduled to draw up papers late in 2008 in time for a December release, when the economic crisis hit and our soon to be publisher went out of business.

What to do then? Well, we heard about this "new" thing called self-publishing and how some authors actually formed companies from which to publish their works. We thought if the manuscript was good enough for a publishing company to want to launch it as a cornerstone release, then it should do well for us. In 2009, Heather and I learned what we could about publishing and starting a business, we founded Triscelle Publishing, and then we got our first manuscript ready for publishing, which became two books: Morrigan's Brood and Crone of War. We now have three sequels queuing up for publication, and we are writing the next manuscript, which will encompass between two and three books.

For those seeking advice on whether to go the traditional route or self-publish should first research the consequences of both routes. There are various discussion groups on LinkedIn, for instance, of authors who have gone through both self-publishing and traditional publishing - they might be able to offer the advice you seek. Small press publishing, which is what we did, met our goals. Now, we won't make any money at this, at least not in the short-term, but we did get our books out there without having to wait another two to three years to find yet another agent / publishing company. You might be in a different situation than we were. Determine your objectives and then do your research. Only you can decide which approach is best for you.

Cheers!

Christopher Dunbar

I'm a self publisher, and try to look for agents. I had no bites on the first one so I'm going to start sending out query letters for book number two. Some agents prefer email others regular mail I've noticed.

Traversing through the quagmire of agents and publishers can be a challenge to say the least! I have had a publisher and two agents plus three offers on my latest novel Towering Pines Volume One: Room 509 before I finally decided to open my own publishing house and do it myself.

I got a lot of the, "love the book but it isn't for me" from agents and publishers were offering various things none of which fell into what I wanted to do. In the end, researching publishers and agents to find ones that fit best with you and your book(s) is really the key to reducing your own stress level.

And if you can't, maybe doing it yourself is the way to go.. marketing is very very difficult and getting in brick and mortar stores is nearly impossible (but not impossible!) without money, experience and a good name behind you... it can be done though!

Bruce wrote: "Traversing through the quagmire of agents and publishers can be a challenge to say the least! I have had a publisher and two agents plus three offers on my latest novel Towering Pines Volume..."</i>

Bruce,

As a fellow small press author, with whom do you print and distribute? We (Triscelle Publishing) currently print through Lulu and have our distribution through Lulu via Ingram, but we are considering moving to either TextStream (Baker & Taylor) or Lightning Source (Ingram) for printing and distribution. I am curious to know who others in our predicament use.

Cheers!

[author:Christopher Dunbar

We have tried a couple of different routes but currently have found that using Amazon's CreateSpace is working quite nicely for us. It is cost effective, flexible and puts out a nice product. Their shipping times and costs can use a bit of improvement but overall I give it a 4.5/5 and you get decent distribution to the major retailer catalogs for a small extra fee. Set up costs you nothing but the cost of proofs, but the "expanded distribution" is a small fee but overall worth it.

We used a smaller printer initially who was very helpful and user friendly if not a touch on the expensive side. Our first two runs were good but then we have some serious quality control issues and moved away from them (they shall remain nameless in public).

We did have an account with Lightning Source before we actually started publishing. I found them to be marginally helpful but misleading. They had approved our account on credit and then after we uploaded our first title and finalized it for printing they changed their mind. They told me that they never approve new publishers for credit for any reason in spite of doing so in writing to me. I was initially OK with all their fees (of which there are many many fees -- set up on their titles is quite pricey) figuring I could make up the cost in sales before the account became due. But I wasn't prepared (at the time) to pay that cost up front before ever ordering a book. I told them to cancel my title and close my account I didn't want to do business with a company that operates like that. I know others who have had a good experience with them, so please don't hear this as sour grapes. I'm simply recounting my experience with them.

Bruce A. Sarte

Bruce, "love the book but it isn't for me"
That is the story of my life in my email box.

Which self publishing have you guys liked the best? I've looked at lulu and createspace. I hate Xilbiris.

Ottlie -- I am very pleased with CreateSpace for printing. I'm not sure if I would use it just for my books, but for doing a lot of books the way we do them at Bucks County Publishing I like it quite a bit.

I've read a bit about your first book, please consider submitting to Bucks County Publishing if you don't mind small micro-presses! Friend me on Facebook and feel free to talk to our authors for references!

Okay I'll contact you! Thank you!

Thanks for all of the sharings- I really appreciate your experiences!!

-Carolynn

Carolynn, I only just saw your original post - sorry for being late. I got published this year. I tried agents and publishers, but first I Googled them to make sure they took my genre of book. The British agents were hopeless, not taking email and very fast in their rejections (so fast it seemed they hadn't read the letter). The Americans were far better but being on the submissions circuit is hell for you. You have to pick yourself up after every rejection letter - and everyone gets them. I had 30 rejections before two small publishers came in with an offer - on the same day! I went with the larger of the two and have never regretted it. They do take their time (it took about 9 months for the book to finally come out - as an ebook) but they did all the art work and edited it within an inch of its life. They also have promotion contacts.
I'd say - get on the submission circuit, have a good hook for your pitch letter (and being a reviewer should help), have a really good hook for the blurb of your book (or synopsis if that's what they want). Expect rejections (some have over 200!), send out, say 10 submissions at a time and when one comes back rejected, send out another. Keep at it. When you've really had enough - self-publish. :-)
Good luck (and I don't envy you....)
Sue

Carolynn, there has been good advice given so far, especially from Christopher about doing research. Living in Nashville, there are major publishing houses here both in the general and Christian market. I've dealt with them all in one form or another and see first hand how the publishing world is changing, and changing rapidly.

Many publishers in both markets have downsized and cut their editorial and marketing staff, thus passing those duties to the author. Howbeit, without informing would-be authors of this fact. Most now expect new authors to present a perfectly polished manuscript and established audience before offering a contract.

With self-publishing on the rise, traditional publishers are keeping their eye on those authors. In fact, at a recent convention of editors and publishers in NY, there was a seminar on how and what to look for among the self world to 'find' a perspective author. Also some publishers now offer co-publishing, a hybrid between traditional and self where the author bears some of the cost while receiving the publisher's name, logo and distribution.

For my two cents worth, after getting signed, I discovered the volume of work I do in editing, marketing and promotion for my publisher is no different than self. And for far less royalties. The standard royalty rate is between 7-12% of NET sales for each book. That can come out to less than $1 you make on each book. Opposed to self,where the royalties are 2-3 times higher depending upon printing cost and retail price.

Since I was working so hard for nearly nothing, I've gone self for the rest of the series. Like Bruce, I use CreateSpace. Since book 1 is already on Amazon and uses Ingram distribution, it was a seamless transition for me to slip in and continue with the same system.

Try sending out queries, just be ware of the pitfalls of traditional while investigating both. The object is to keep moving forward, never go stagnate.

Even though I self-publish as a small press, rather than as an author, I still pay others to perform functions I either cannot do well (lack of skills, etc.) or tasks best left for another set of eyes. I pay a friend to perform a full, professional edit, another friend to design cover art, interior art, and the website, and another friend to proofread.

I layout the novel, write the back cover text, perform the final copy edit, evaluate the proof, and get the book ready for production printing. When we are ready, I will also convert our works to various eBook formats. I also develop virtually all of the marketing materials, such as bookmarks, postcards, chapter books, free reads, posters, banners, fliers, signs, etc., though I have some help from my cover designer whenever I need to re-render the cover art to 6 feet by 3 feet (example).

I also serve as publicist, which includes signing up for events within our market (Celtic, Irish, Scots, and Medieval festivals, book fairs, fantasy conventions, etc.), setting up book signing events at bookstores and other venues, seeking book reviews, seeking interviews, expanding our web presence, keeping up with our blog, etc.

What fun it is being author and publisher!

Cheers!

Christopher Dunbar

Christopher - I honestly think you have the best of both worlds. Well done.
Sue

If I may offer my experience ...

Two years ago, my ms was complete. (OK, I've continued to tweak it since then, but that could continue forever.) I began by submitting it to agents. I very quickly found that LMP was not a useful resource, since the listings were outdated or inaccurate, but QueryTracker.net turned out to be good. On that site, you can sort agents by what they say they're looking for, whether they take unsolicited queries, etc., and you can read what other writers have said about their experiences with 'em (whether they ever respond, whether they're jerks, etc.). Very empowering! Likewise, you can share your own input, and use the site to keep track of your progress.

OK, but after scores of attempts, even using the list of agents screened by all my criteria, I'd gotten nowhere. Agents told me my writing was good, the story was significant and moving -- lots of compliments -- but they always found a reason to pass on it. Basically, they didn't want to take a chance on someone without a proven track record.

QueryTracker subsequently began adding publishers to their database -- those willing to accept material directly from authors -- and I tried again, with identical results.

Next I considered POD and co-op publishing, and was tempted. I may yet take one of those routes, but for now have been persuaded to consider true self-publishing (contracting directly with designer, printer, distributor, etc.), on the grounds that the cost will be about the same and there's a greater chance of getting value for my money. A publicist is also involved, and that part will cost a good deal more -- but for commercial success I think a publicist would be necessary in any event.

I will be glad to let people know how it all shakes out.

BTW, Christopher, like your profile picture. Only I can't make out the Clan tartan. My husband hails from Lamont - hence the name Lamb.

Susan wrote: "Christopher - I honestly think you have the best of both worlds. Well done.
Sue"

It can be a lot of work at times. Next weekend, we will hopefully be getting our edited manuscript back from our editor for our third book, so I will be busy with getting it ready for publication and seeking pre-release reviews and publicity. All of this on top of considering whether to move away from Lulu to Lightning Source or TextStream.

Cheers!

Christopher Dunbar

Shawn wrote: "BTW, Christopher, like your profile picture. Only I can't make out the Clan tartan. My husband hails from Lamont - hence the name Lamb."

Thank you for your kind words! The tartan is ancient hunting MacIntyre, which is one of my wife's clans. In the photo, I am wearing a great kilt, that is a hand-pleated, 9 1/2 yard-long by 60 inch wide bolt of 14 oz tartan material belted at the waist and clamped with a 3" diameter penannular. I am also wearing a Pendragon doublet, as well as a scabbard and a baldric I made for my two claymors.

Shawn, I remember at various Scottish festivals being told the proper way to pronounce certain clan names. For instance, "there is no fear in MacPherson". I remember one for Lamont... "it's Lam-it, dammit". I don't know how true that is, but ask your hubby - he has probably heard that one.

Cheers!

Christopher Dunbar

LOL, yes, Christopher, we've heard that one about Lam-it since most confuse it with the French pronouncement La-mont when first seeing it. Even been asked to represent the Clan here at the Middle Tennessee Highland Games, but never had the time. Although our daughter won the "Haggis Hurl" one year. :)

I have had a great experience with self-publishing! My book is The Wizard of Oz Code (bit.ly/923FPy). I went with www.lightningsource.com. Wonderful, helpful people. It is a lot of work - but well worth it. And with social media at our fingertips, it is easier than ever to market the book on your own (publishers do not have marketing budgets for authors, so you have to market it on your own anyway). Good luck!

Mich wrote: "I have had a great experience with self-publishing! My book is The Wizard of Oz Code (bit.ly/923FPy). I went with www.lightningsource.com. Wonderful, helpful people. It is a lot of work - but w..."

Mich - Can you elaborate more on how you use Lightning Source and why you went with them? As I mentioned in a previous post, we are looking to reduce per-book print costs and increase our distribution options. Which distribution options are you using and why?

Thanks!

Christopher Dunbar

Absolutely! Almost any other publisher you go with will eventually end up at lightningsource. So, if you are willing to do all your marketing, cover design, isbn, etc on your own this is the way to go. They provide Print on Demand (POD) and it is digital so you don't have to pay for some huge print run. I do not remember my exact costs, but they were minimal. Their parent company is Ingram so once the book is ready they will make sure to get it on Amazon, Barnes & Noble and send it to other smaller sites. Though I did have to go back to those sites and send them a digital pic of the book cover. If you need any more info, just let me know.

I think I recieved over 50 or 60 rejection letters for one book. YOu really think that ereaders will take over competely and that quickly?

Ottilie wrote: "I think I recieved over 50 or 60 rejection letters for one book. YOu really think that ereaders will take over competely and that quickly?"

I think that it is the wave of the future, but that it will be slow.

BTW, on those rejection letters? If any of them were detailed (as opposed to "thanks, but no thanks"), you may want to take the advice in them and go back for a re-edit. Once I got over "having my mad on" when I got just such a letter, I went back to my manuscript and followed the advice I got. The net result was a publishing contract in the UK, followed by one in the US.

It's worth the time.

i was planning on just going to the next book, instead because that book is self published. I really hope that's not the future I think there is special to holding a real book in your hands.

That's really interesting about M.R.'s royalties after publishing on Kindle. I'm e-published (by a Publisher) and it'd be interesting to compare royalties - I reckon yours might be more M.R.!
Ottillie, some people get more than a hundred rejections before they get accepted. Boy, rejections hurt - I know. Good luck!
Sue

Some of the rejections hurt, not all. Most I felt were the same form that they all used. Thanks! I just feel like I'm applying to colleges again when I send them out.

Yes, exactly - it's like applying to colleges, worse perhaps. I remember I sent out a submission at around 11.00pm on a Sunday night and when I logged in again at 8.00am on the Monday, the rejection was already in my inbox. Any possibility that agents sleep during the day, out of sunlight, in wooden boxes?

Susan wrote: "Yes, exactly - it's like applying to colleges, worse perhaps. I remember I sent out a submission at around 11.00pm on a Sunday night and when I logged in again at 8.00am on the Monday, the rejectio..."

Haha i agree!! Some probably do live in wooden boxes during the day! I had an agent, who I did not even send any part of the manuscript. I sent him a letter and summery that a friend of mine looked at. He accused me of doing drugs and told me unless a doctor prescribed them if I ever wanted to be a writer I better get off them

A few comments on various things that have been said between my last comment and now...

RE: Lightning Source -- they have a corner on the market they serve. No one has as much reach as they do. That being said, micro-presses such as mine (Bucks County Publishing) find ways to still get it done and get it done well. BCP will never use Lightning Source because of the way we were treated.

RE: eBooks -- They are definitely gaining ground. Not sure they will ever "take over" in our lifetime. It will take a long time to replace the idea of paper and a book in a readers hands. It is making great gains, but we still sell more paperbacks then we do Kindle, Nook, iPad, LRF etc combined. Not by much... but paperbacks still win.

At this point, BCP relies heavily on the author to assist with marketing their title. But we do everything else. The author can certain pre-edit or submit a cover... but we do have professionals that we employ that do these things in conjunction with the author. We do things in such a way that the author still has a lot of say in what the final product is -- that was one reason I walked away from a contract with a NY firm with Towering Pines. Once I submitted it, I had very little say in the final product... and I certainly wasn't going to be one of their "stars".

You can self-publish, but having your book published even by a small press carries some weight when we try and get it on the shelves of an indie store... we market almost exclusively to these stores and overall do very well.

Bruce, I was also fortunate that my publisher accepted a good amount of input from me. Unfortunately, circumstances made me branch out into self and start my own indie - Allon Books.

The only thing that makes it possible is being blessed with a creative family who have experience in professional T.V. & film graphic, animation, and art design to do book covers, produce promo videos, character and website design. These costs alone would be prohibitive to many new authors but are important aspects in the business. We do everything literally "in house".:)

Shawn -- I wish I could say we have that much talent in-house :) but I kind of feel like Duff (Ace of Cakes) over here in that I've hired some of the most talented people I know, family and friends, to help with acquisitions, editing, cover art and even some marketing -- even with the limited budget we have!

Oh, don't get me started about marketing! The bane of any author's existence. In that, we are all fish out of water and have gone "out of house" to very limited sucess. Any hints on this front, I'll gladly accept.

I feel like marketing keeps changing too much it's hard to figure out what we should be doing.

Nanette, I'm also on CreateSpace, which is owned by Amazon. Before joining you can get an idea of the cost of printing a book by placing the dimensions, page count, b&w or color, cover, etc in a form to calculate. You set your own retail price, so include shipping and set up costs when determining the price.

The smaller and simply the book the less it costs to print. For example, a simple fiction book under 300 pages costs around $4 to print. Depending upon what the retail price - perhaps $10 to $14 - the margin is $6 - $10.

Publishers figure an author's royalties off their NET sales, what they make after costs are considered. The retail price maybe $14, but the publisher nets only $6 - leaving the author with 7-12% off $6 - not the $14 retail price, thus making only around $1 per book.

Hope that answers your question.

Having recently published my first novel, The Bridge Club, through iUniverse, I just want to say how valuable all of this information-sharing is. For first-time authors the post-publishing learning curve is far steeper than I ever imagined and, although I'm receiving great feedback and enjoying the ride, the self-promotion and marketing feels like it is 24/7. Social media rules my life at the moment but it certainly sounds like I have a lot of company! Onward, writers!

I've noted many comments regarding difficulties of traditional publishing, non-use of agents, and use of self-publishing. As a self-publisher, I attempted all 'the right' maneuvers at a feeble attempt to grasp the attention of book agents. What occurred to me is how does one become a book agent? Can I list myself on the internet, saying I'm C.C's Literary Agency? So, I got the hint and self-published, not looking back.

Shawn wrote: "Nanette, I'm also on CreateSpace, which is owned by Amazon. Before joining you can get an idea of the cost of printing a book by placing the dimensions, page count, b&w or color, cover, etc in a fo..."

Shawn,

Morrigan's Brood's retail price is $18.99. Print description: 6" x 9", perfect binding, cream interior paper (60# weight), black and white interior ink, white exterior paper (100# weight), full-color exterior ink, consisting of 336 pages. The print cost through Lulu is $11.22. The same book through LSI would be $5.27 for Print to Order and $5.94 for Print to Publisher printing. TextStream, a competitor with Baker & Taylor, is in the same ballpark.

Because my Lulu print costs are so high, I only net $1.02 if someone buys the book through distribution channels (B&N, Amazon, etc.), though I net $6.22 if someone buys through Lulu. I am considering moving away from Lulu to reduce print costs and have more wiggle room with pricing and discounting. My impression is that CreateSpace books are not as high on the quality scale and because CreateSpace seems to have the same distribution options as Lulu. TextStream and Lightning Source seem to have more distribution options than Lulu or CreateSpace.

Cheers!

Christopher Dunbar

Christopher, I've not had any problems with CreateSpace quality. In fact, we designed book 2 to match what my publisher did with book 1 and no one can tell the difference when asked to examine them.

The only 2 variations for my book stats from yours are white interior paper instead of cream and 285 pages for $4.25. Some other authors have reported problems with an occasional cover curling, but reported it to CreateSpace and they printed and shipped a new book for free.

I ordered 20 copies of INSURRECTION from CreateSpace on Monday and received them Friday of the same week, and all in fine condition inside and out.

Shawn wrote: "Christopher, I've not had any problems with CreateSpace quality. In fact, we designed book 2 to match what my publisher did with book 1 and no one can tell the difference when asked to examine them..."

I did the same thing with CreateSpace; matching my 2nd book to the 1st from another publisher. So far so good.