Think [the box] ing discussion

Should people really be buried in coffins? Does everyone deserve a small land space for their decomposing bodies?

Will we not run out of land eventually if everyone insists on being buried? And what about the implications for the Nitrogen cycle? We take matter out of the earth to build our bodies and do not return it for reuse/recycling. There is so much energy stored up in pine boxes 6 ft under. Are there no consequences to this?

and just in case, yes I am well aware of cremations but am just addressing potential issues with burial here.

I have at least one friend who has changed her will so that her body will go to a body farm (for forensic evaluation of decomposing bodies). I'm not sure, but I think that one of her inspirations was Philip Pullman's His Dark Materials, in which the dead are happy for their elemental constituents to disperse and to go back to nature. Certainly, traditional burials, especially in expensive metal caskets, at least markedly retard and at the worst prevent that kind of return to nature. Out of the box indeed! ;)

I don't want to be buried...I'm with both of you on this one. However, walking through cemeteries is quite nice. So I hope a couple stick around.

Unfortunately, we may be running out of land on which to live and survive faster than burial space.

In the Netherlands, land used for "untended"graves is routinely reclaimed for new use. The assumption is that the graves are for the comfort of the living and if noone seems to be connected to them or "tending" them, they can be reused or the land possibly used for something else.

I did not know that about the Netherlands. I always assumed that as long as a society survived, their grave sites did also. When they are conquered or their empires fall, then the new overseers, if they lack respect for other societies' cultures, would deface/vandalize their burial grounds and turn them into something else.
But it makes sense that graves are for the comfort of the living. I wonder what they do with the bodies though once the land is reused. If used for something else, I'm guessing the bodies are still underground but the markers are removed. But if being reused for another burial, what do they do with the coffin that was there and the body inside it?

Personally, I would love to thing of me in a "final resting place". I believe in the resurrection so it only makes sense to me that there gets to be a place that whoever resurrects my body knows where to find it. Also I have found it of great comfort to be able to spend time with my brother and niece's graveside. I see it as a meeting place of sorts. "See you at your grave".

There needs to be a place so that"Whoever resurrects my body knows where to find it"??? That is a joke , right?!

Wendy,
It is not a joke. Simply a different context than yours. I believe that a loved one will have the power to resurrect me. I realize this is different perspective from most. Perhaps I should have refrained from speaking my truth on this subject.
With my whole heart,
Colleen

I don't think people should ever refrain from speaking their mind. After all, how are you ever going to learn anything or be able to change your mind if you don't converse with others about it? In a nice, safe environment such as this one purports to be of course.
I think your point of view is interesting even if I disagree with it. How do I know for sure you're wrong anyway right?

Personally, I've always wanted to be wrapped in linen (only because it's an ancient fabric and I assume it's organic and biodegradable) and buried in the backyard of my childhood home. And a fruit tree planted in the area so that it may use my remains as fertilizer. I imagine my grandchildren eating fruit from the "grandma tree". Everyone else thinks I'm psycho when I say this, but I really do believe it's a lovely idea and it warms my heart.

and Ryan, that was very funny. Scary movies, I LOVE 'em.

I think its fine to put forward an idea as your poetic imagining, fantasy, wish or whatever as long as you are prepared for it not to be given any more weight as "truth" than if presented as your own isolated belief, unanchored in any religion or experience. If that is what you WISH were true and you decide without evidence or a divine revelation or whatever that you WANT to believe it, that still does not make it a "truth" . You presented no context for your remark that implied that the grave needed to be marked so that it could be found by someone who needed such identification to find you to resurrect you...so obviously not someone omniscient ..more like the Prince kissing and awakening Sleeping Beauty. That is what made me assume you were joking.


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If I were to say that upon death and burial, my truth is that I would turn into a mole and dig a tunnel to join a mole family, it would not likely be regarded as "my perspective or coming from my context but as as a joke or perhaps indication of a mental aberration...or would you nod solemnly and attribute this as equally a "truth"? Some remarks need context so feel free to provide context.

Carlie shared a wish which was perfectly lovely and as a wish , we could relate to it.

I love Carlie vision of her perfect burial. I would give it more weight than a mere wish. I have always felt that the word "wish" is the same as saying "pipe dream". It has no merit. I do believe that my "prince Phillip" will be the one that will have the power to rescue me from the chains of death. Sleeping beauty was a beautiful fairy tale laced with truth. I invite you to watch it as an adult and see if any of it rings true for you.

If your information, my truth is based on a religion and based on experience of sorts. I have not had the opportunity to cross the final threshold of death, but have been in the room while others have. I believe that the most important relationship we have in this live is family. That relationship is eternal and therefore those are the ones that we connect with all the experiences involved in the death experience, and no they are not omniscent.

With my whole heart, Colleen

I assume that you are a Mormon. A Mormon explained to me once that a Mormon man,after his death, can pull his wife over that threshold into the afterlife (0ne of the benefits to marriage for a woman) so I can see the analogy to Sleeping beauty for you...if that is what you have been told. We are all related so "family" means essentially the entire human race ...and is traceable back thru time to our emergence from Africa. In fact, we can even chart our relationship to other species. We do not have to rely on myth to explain many things in nature that in the past could only be "explained" by myths spun by man.

Whatever religion you were brought up with will of course seem more valid to you while unbelievable to many others. There is a religion in which the world is explained as carried on the back of a huge turtle. It seems true to those who have always been taught that. Truth is not so easily spun out of myth and fairy tale...though both may contain beauty or comfort.
Carlie expressed a wish and there is nothing unimportant about wishes. They actually have more capacity to be actualized and "come true" than myth!

This is incredibly interesting. Are you Mormon Colleen? And even if you are not, in your belief system, what happens to women who die without a "prince"? Or women who had multiple "princes?" I did not want to just assume that prince equals husband.

I've had Mormon missionaries over at my house and they also emphasized that the family relationship is forever. But that never appealed to me because in my ideal heaven, all the limitations of the flesh are absent. There, we all realize that we are all children of the same Father, brothers and sisters, and all is forgiven. There is no need for sexual relations, food, etc. If the people who believe that we just end up living on earth again are right, then I'm totally screwed because I hate having to eat, poo, pee, etc.

Carlie

The Parsees of Bombay, India used to leave their dead on top of towers to be eaten by vultures.

Australian Aborigines left the bodies of their dead in trees.

The Inuit (Eskimos) would often erect little igloos over their dead. Due to the cold (before global warming!), the bodies would be preserved, frozen for a long time...unless of course, eaten by polar bears.

One reason for digging deeper graves by custom, is to prevent bodies from being dug up for supper by animals of course though in some cultures, it was
expected and was not feared.

Carlie, yes I am LDS (Mormon to you)

Wendy, What I see is different cultures ways of dealing with death. Many nomatic people realized that returning to a grave was not only impractical but in many cases impossible. It makes sense that because they see all creation as brothers and sisters and that in the spirit of oneness, assisting animals to live would complete the cycle of life.

I love the idea of decaying bodies nuturing a tree as they did in the "old west". As far as I understand current U.S. law that is no longer possible.

I love Isabella's request to be friends.
Whatever our believe system, we have become members of this forum to share and learn.

Wishing everyone a joyful day of thought and meditaion on what works for you.

With my whole heart,
Colleen

Carlie said: I've had Mormon missionaries over at my house and they also emphasized that the family relationship is forever. But that never appealed to me because in my ideal heaven, all the limitations of the flesh are absent. There, we all realize that we are all children of the same Father, brothers and sisters, and all is forgiven. There is no need for sexual relations, food, etc. If the people who believe that we just end up living on earth again are right, then I'm totally screwed because I hate having to eat, poo, pee, etc.

I'm with you on that one Carlie. I've had Mormons at my front door in the past too, and I've always questioned the pretty picture on the front of the pamphlets, of the happy white family petting deer in an idyllic park.

The truth is, if humans retain what makes them human in an afterlife, it'd be a miserable afterlife. I can't see how paradise can be attained or maintained if humans keep their consciousness, their sense of self even. I would guess that it'd be just a warm happy glowing feeling and that's pretty much it. Otherwise, lookout petty squabbles, jealousies and all the rest of it. And if only people who aren't prone to any of those things get into heaven, then it's pretty clear that NO ONE is in heaven. It's just what happens when humans who share different opinions - as we all do - get together. So Carlie's version makes more sense.

Personally, I'm going to be cremated and have my ashes spread beneath roses (they like ashes). As much as I'd love to feed the next generation of worms, I don't like wasting so much space, or being confined in a coffin. I like the burial at sea idea - food for the fish.

Shannon, becoming roses sounds lovely too. I'm so surprised that so many of you like my idea. Anytime I've shared it with family and friends, they call me crazy. My husband is ok with it though and has it memorized.
Colleen - I am aware that what I want is illegal here but my childhood home is in Haiti. It's probably illegal there too but it's a lawless place anyway. The cops are too busy taking bribes or doing their own illegal activities to bother stopping anyone burying any one else wherever they see fit. So I may end up a tree yet.

For those that believe that family relationship isn't that "pretty picture" on the phamplet, I invite you to read -- Codes of Love: How to Rethink your family and Remake your Life by Mark Bryan.

Mark has some amazing insights on the importants of "going home again" as a way of healing.

I am personally hoping that we are about finished on this subject of death. I would much rather focus on what life is all about.

With my whole heart,
Colleen

Thanks Charly, I haven't had much time for groups lately but I'm trying to catch up :)

Carlie I hope you get your wish (if it's still okay to use that word?).

Colleen, I don't think anyone was disputing the fact that people can have very happy (and powerful) family relationships while alive, only that after death some of us doubt that it carries over - as much as that would be lovely. Since this topic is about death and burial etc., if you don't wish to participate you're more then welcome not to, and start a new topic - one on the positives of life would make a nice change, for sure, and I would love to join in :)

Number of humans who have ever lived:

An estimate of the total number of people who have ever lived was prepared by Carl Haub of the Population Reference Bureau in 1995 and subsequently updated in 2002; the updated figure was approximately 106 billion. Arriving at this guesstimated figure required "selecting population sizes for different points from antiquity to the present and applying assumed birth rates to each period". Given an estimated global population of 6.2 billion in 2002, it could be inferred that only about 6% of all people who had ever existed were alive in 2002. We are approaching 7 billion now. Hard to squeeze them all in somewhere, eh?

Thanks for putting number facts to my concerns. I think we need to find the square footage of land available on earth, and divide that by the square footage of the average grave to get the maximum number of people that can logicaly be buried. But of course that would leave no space for anything else.
This may be a useless worry though since civilizations end and their replacements rarely honor the burial sites of their predecessors such that even if you are buried, there is no guarantee that your land will not be built over and your body discarded or end up in a museum somewhere. Think about all the native american graves that have been desecrated or constructed over after America was created.
But I'm still concerned about the effect on Nitrogen balance though.

I feel that burial/funeral preferences should be honored if possible. Everyone has their own idea of what comes after, and usually that is reflected in their choices. My Mom is violently against having anything but a burial - my sisters want cremation - and I told my daughters that while my parents are alive they have to bury me, but if they aren't, I leave it up to them. Once I'm gone they can do as they wish with the body.
However, I don't think funerals or burials will destroy the earth. People don't give the earth enough credit. The planet has much more experience taking care of itself than humans do. Humans have been on the planet for a relatively short time compared to planetary existence. It is much more likely that we will become extinct than that we will be able to permanently harm the earth.

I believe in resurrection too but don't want to even remotely tempt God with a readily-available-though-slightly-rubbery-80-year-old version of my body in Heaven. Cremation requires a more creative and (hopefully) younger body option...Secondly, creamation is the "greenest" choice, and I believe it's arrogant to leave Sasketwatch-like ecological footprints like my ancesters did. Finally, either being made into compost by worms while I'm happily "resting" in some cemetary doesn't work for me at all. Ashes to ashes suits me just fine...the more I can help speed up the whole decomposition thing, the better. Cripes!

My last rite of choice is to be torn apart by wild dingos. That way, my body can be recycled...plust it would make one helluva video to post at youtube.

Burned viking style, dna transfusion into a tree or diamond crystallization of my ashes for me