The Extra Cool Group! (of people Michael is experimenting on) discussion

lets start with a metphor:

when I was in college my friend took me to go see "let's go to prison" I didn't understand what I was agreeing to at the time. For years I complained about wasting time and referred to the movie as "What would happen if the coen brothers failed". Now I find that I feel like I like the movie. I've never seen it again and never intend to, but somehow I've grown fond of it.

Sometimes this happens to me with books. At one point I was talking to someone about madame bovary, recommending it in fact and they pointed out I had given it two stars. I immediately bumped my rating to four stars and still have no idea why I thought it only merited 2.

Does this happen to other people?

All of the time. I am so fickle.

I know what you mean. Flaubert was the most drastic one I've had, but I constantly move things one star.

I'm pretty much ruled by my moods. I am afraid to reread some favorites in case I turn around and hate them.

I am pro that policy. I found it so depressing when matilda was bad.

Matilda? Say it ain't so! I have the best memories of that one. I still liked The Witches when I reread it in 2005. (Matilda the movie is the worst. But I hate it extra 'cause the actress once worked with Martin Short and I have a hatred of that man that extends to all his other co-stars. I'm not a rational person, strictly speaking.)

I've met her. she didn't grow at all after that movie.

I blame Martin Short-ass.

Books change my perception of time.

This happens to me all the time and drives me nuts. It's one of the reasons I force myself to write reviews even when I'm not inspired or I know the review will be stupid. At least I can read what I was thinking.

I started reading adult books when I was about 10 & am now over 50. My attitudes & opinions have changed over the decades; marriage, raising kids, careers & such. So the books that interest me & how they interest me has changed greatly. Tarzan, Conan, & Mike Hammer were fantastic when I was young. While I still like them, they don't wow me the way they did.

We've also had huge societal changes in the meantime. For example, when I was 10, homosexuality was considered a psychiatric disorder or something. It wasn't until 5 years later that the shrinks changed their minds. Driving with a beer used to be OK & there were lots of hippies. Many women didn't work & most family's I knew had only one car. No Internet & most folks wouldn't get computers for 25 or more years, so Gibson's Neuromancer was wild stuff when it came out 15 years later.

I've also grown a lot as a reader. After reading a few thousand books, my standards have grown. (Well, IMO, anyway.) There is some language, plots, & devices that I just can't stand. I loved Stasheff's 'Wizard in Rhyme' series when it first came out. I tried re-reading it a year or so ago & I hated the writing in the 2d book. I used to like Cussler, but can't read him any more, either. Maybe I'm just getting crotchety, but I think it's just poor writing on their parts.

So yeah, time does change my perception of a book for a lot of reasons.

i think driving with a beer is still okay

I wrote a whole review about the way time changed my perception of one book (& by implication many others)

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

I don't think time has much to do with my perception of the book. The book changes! It definitely isn't the same as when a tender-yeared incarnation first encountered it. In the intervening rites of passage, the book has metamorphosed into something else.

I blame other books, of course. Damn things, congregating together and swapping secrets. And even worse, attracting unprecedented amounts of public attention. Really, books are just celebrity whores.

And - they talk about us readers when we aren't around! They gossip on our shelves! About us!

I built bookshelves into one entire wall of my bedroom, except for the window, so mine whisper sweet nothings gently, lulling me to sleep. I can lay there as I wake up & look at all of the books, remembering the fantastic places they've taken me to. It's a great way to segue from sweet dreams to reality.

Jim wrote: "I built bookshelves into one entire wall of my bedroom, except for the window, so mine whisper sweet nothings gently, lulling me to sleep. I can lay there as I wake up & look at all of the books, ..."
I've got a wall of books over my bed and I'm lulled to sleep by the idea that tonight will be Big Quake & they'll pull my lifeless & pulverized body from the wreckage. What a way to go.
Time has changed my perception of books. I read and loved Gone With the Wind & Wuthering Heights in high school - when I reread them a few years back it was Melanie, not Scarlett that I considered the heroine of the story and the casual racism! didn't even phase me in the 70's.
I couldn't even get halfway through Wuthering Heights this time around. The entire cast should have gotten a good spanking and sent to bed without supper.

I'm 21 now, and have been reading for basically my entire life. Obviously the biggest changes in life happen in the first twenty or so years, so my perception of a book is almost never the same when I come back and re-read it. I'm curious whether, now that I'm an 'adult', this will happen less.

Choupette wrote: "I'm 21 now, and have been reading for basically my entire life. Obviously the biggest changes in life happen in the first twenty or so years, so my perception of a book is almost never the same whe..."

Annoyingly, the biggest changes of your life continue to happen throughout your life. Where is my staid boring stable adult life? I was PROMISED.

But that said, yes, there's a lot going on in your first few decades.

Choupette wrote: "...Obviously the biggest changes in life happen in the first twenty or so years, so my perception of a book is almost never the same whe..."

I understand what you're saying, but have to disagree in my case. People grow & change attitudes a lot through life. That's one reason so many marriages end in divorce - folks grow in different ways. While the teenage years are the most chaotic, I don't think the overall attitude changes are the biggest. Sure, I went from a child to an adult, hating girls to loving them & a lot more, but I don't think my attitudes about literature changed as much as they have since then.

My attitudes changed more after I was married & had a family of my own. That suddenly gave me an entirely different perspective on everything because life wasn't just about me any more. There were several other major events that changed my attitudes; getting sober, having my kids almost die (All 3 wound up seriously hospitalized in the space of a few years due to accidents.) & changing careers.

It would be interesting to read in-depth reviews of some books that I've read almost every decade. Unfortunately, I didn't write many reviews when younger nor do I have them available. One that I can think of is Starship Troopers. Before I joined the Army, I liked it & thought the idea of being part of an organization that stood for such ideals was great. After doing time in the Army - well, let's just say there weren't many stars left in my eyes. The Forever War captured my attitude a lot better. After raising a family & changing careers, I prefer Armor's take.

My views change, but usually I will like a book more than I once did. I think life experience is part of the reason. For instance, it took me years to really like Heart of Darkness.

There are few exceptions. For instance, some YA that I've read as an adult, I'm sure I would've loved as a teen.

Jim wrote: "Choupette wrote: "...Obviously the biggest changes in life happen in the first twenty or so years, so my perception of a book is almost never the same whe..."

I understand what you're saying, but ..."

That's really interesting, and it definitely sounds like your adult years have been rather more tumultuous than your childhood and teenage life. I suppose it depends on the experiences one has. For me, the main difference I've noticed since 'growing up' is that I can now appreciate classics without thinking they're dead boring, and that I have a more discerning taste for good or bad prose. I haven't noticed yet that I have a different opinion of different genres.

Actually, my childhood & teenage years were more tumultuous. I just don't think I was mature enough to have a life-view that stuck enough for me to put it into my reading, if that makes sense. The story was what it was. It wasn't until I was in my late teens that I had enough life experience, (Well put, Chris.) to connect more with the book's world, so that I became more critical of characterization & plot. I no longer just accepted, but was able to more properly judge.

Of course, many of the philosophies & attitudes that I subscribed to then are not entirely what I believe now. Back then, I was a great deal more idealistic. I think it was Paul in his review that said something about being beaten up by the whips of work, life & responsibility. (Pardon if I messed that up, Paul. It tickled me the way you put it & that's what I took away.) In some ways, I agree with him.

At any rate, I found my idealism didn't stand up well with time. There's too much gray in the world, often couched in choices between bad & worse. There are a lot of well meaning, damn fools out there muddying the waters, too. The whole good or bad guy thing got old & I was more able to appreciate the POV or even respect characters that I disliked in some cases.

If you read the books I listed; Starship Troopers, The Forever War, & Armor, in that order, I think you'll understand better what I'm saying. The basic plot is the same, but the main character & attitudes evolve. I read the first as a teen before joining the army, the next in my 20's after serving & the last in my mid-thirties after getting sober, married & having several children.

The progression of the characters & themes with my attitudes is uncanny. I read each for the first time at the perfect place in my life to really connect with the hero. While I still love all 3 books for what they are, I pretty much detest the two dimensional propaganda that Rico spouts. I don't hold a lot more feeling for William's 'fuck it' attitude, but I really admire Felix.

(The Boss calls - dinner!)

I only read "Dhalgren" once years ago & didn't care much for it, Mike, but I'm sure it was well written. I don't think Delany has ever published anything that wasn't polished to a high sheen.

Have you ever tried The Einstein Intersection by him? He wrote it about a decade earlier & is one of my all time favorite books, along with This Immortal. I think they were published the same year. Both blend mythology & SF into an action adventure that is mind blowing. I've read them both a couple of times a decade since the 70's & never tire of them.

In my twenties I loved Ray Bradbury's novels and short stories. Upon rereading, they seem a little fanciful, naive, and syrupy for my current tastes. Hope I don't get tarred and feathered out of this group for saying that.

No, I said the same in a review mentioned above. They are! All of them! It's like watching Chaplin movies and thinking wow, I really have changed since I was 12 and thought these things were funny. Or.... watching some ripe piece of existentialism like Persona or Theorem and thinking wow, I was so deep when I was 19...

LOL. Good to know I'm not the only one, Paul. I missed your above post. Didn't have time to read through these; had to post before this doddering old fool lost her train of thought.

It pains me to say this, because I do love the man, but I feel the same way about some of Harlan Ellison's short stories. *don't hurt me*

Considering that Ellison used to pop out stories on demand in store windows, it's not surprising that some of his stories suck. He was one of those who got me interested in reading. I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream was completely haunting when I was young, almost gave me nightmares & I don't get those easily. That story didn't have nearly the impact it used to, last time I read it 10 or 15 years ago. He's another one I prefer to remember fondly rather than re-read.

Ellison's essays might hold up better than his short stories, at least for me.

I noticed in a book I'm reading right now that Harlan's name on the contents page has a little R with a circle round it just after it, meaning REGISTERED TRADEMARK

Who does that? WHO DOES THAT?

It means Ellison is a sue-happy fool. He's well known for it. They credited him on the Terminator film because they knew he'd sue them since it had a cyborg traveling into the past, although all resemblance to the Outer Limits episode he wrote ended there.