Christian Support Group :) discussion

Some Christians see it fit to tell people of other beliefs or no beliefs that they are going to Hell. Are you one of those? Would you tell someone that they're going to Hell?

I, personally, am repulsed by people who tell others that they're going to Hell. One thing is thinking it, but saying to someones face that they'll spend an eternity in torture is just sick. Not to mention that it's not up to them to decide.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Some Christians see it fit to tell people of other beliefs or no beliefs that they are going to Hell. Are you one of those? Would you tell someone that they're going to Hell?

I, personally, am r..."

I agree. When you tell people about Jesus, you should never start out with "Your going to burn up in Hell if you don't believe". That is not the best way to got about it.
It is better with telling them that Jesus loves us, died on the cross for us, and wants us to become his children. That sounds much more inviting

No, I think it's horrible to tell someone that they are going to hell.

As NSA said, that's not something you wanna start out with and just talk about Hell all the time. God's love is the most important thing. But Hell is something that the Bible teaches and it's something that people need to be warned about.
Even if you personally don't believe it, it's still up to Christians to let people know.

I mean wouldn't any decent person want to help keep people from disaster if they knew about it before hand?
For example if you saw a blind person heading for a cliff, wouldn't you do everything you could to warn them?

It's sort of like warning someone of the effects of smoking. Sure it's unpleasant, but they still need to know about it.
But that doesn't mean you have to harp on it all the time either. Once they know, it's their responsibility to do something about it.

What person in western civilization doesn't know what hell is? There are so many Christians out there, and so many movies and books about it. You'd have to be seriously uninformed as to not know what hell is.

I wouldn't ever tell someone they're going to hell. I'd tell them what Christianity is about, not what it promises those who don't believe in Christ. I can imagine how pissed I'd be if someone told me I was going to hell for doing something that was totally natural to me.

Yes, everyone knows the word 'Hell', but most people don't understand what it really is like. And alot of people don't believe it's really there or that they might go there. So, yes it's important to inform them. In the Bible Jesus talks more about Hell than He talks about Heaven. It must have been pretty important to Him.

As I said, it's not something you wanna necessarily start out with or harp on, but it's still important. Every part of the Bible is important.

Everyone knows that hell is the worst place a person could ever be. And if a person doesn't believe in God, I highly doubt that telling them about hell would make them change their minds. I mean, atheists in the US are challenged with religion pretty often, right? Most of them probably know the basics of Christianity just from growing up.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Everyone knows that hell is the worst place a person could ever be."

You and I know that. Some people think it's going to be one big party.
But I wasn't saying you just throw the "you're going to Hell" phrase at someone as a threat when they obviously don't believe anything else you've told them. Just that it's part of the doctrine of Christianity and still important.
If someone doesn't believe in God, they probably won't believe in Hell either.
It's not our jobs to personally convert everyone. Or anyone for that matter. It's only our job to give them the information.

Wait, so do you all believe, even if you don't tell them, that if someone isn't a christian they are automatically going to hell?

Samantha wrote: "Wait, so do you all believe, even if you don't tell them, that if someone isn't a christian they are automatically going to hell?"

I don't.

So...since I'm still deciding as to what religion I belong to, if I were to hypothetically choose Islam, then I would have just bought myself a one-way ticket to hell?

I won't get into a debate on this. I'll only tell you what the Bible says. It's your decision if you chose to believe it or not.

The main doctrine of Christianity is salvation through faith in Jesus Christ. (John 3:16)
What do you think 'salvation' refers to?
Why else would Jesus have had to come to die on the cross, if not to save us all from Hell? It's a pretty drastic thing to go through if it's not true, don't you think?

God created man perfectly and in his image. When man chose to sin, there were consequences. Death. We all have to die. But not just physically, spiritually.
Death is really separation. Physical death - separation of body and soul. Spiritual death - separation from God.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

But God does not want us to go to Hell. He did not create it for us. He created it for Satan and his demons. God loves us and wants us to spend eternity in Heaven with Him.

Matthew 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into EVERLASTING FIRE, PREPARED FOR THE DEVIL AND HIS ANGELS:

But just because it was created for Satan does not mean we cannot go there. To reject God is to embrace Satan. Even if you don't realize it. There are only 2 options. Serve God or serve Satan. You don't have to do it consciously. Satan is the master deceiver and just as God only asks for your belief, Satan only wants your disbelief.

Matthew 6:24 No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon.

Luke 11:23 He that is not with me is against me:

If you chose to reject God, reject the salvation offered freely by Jesus, then you condemn yourself to Hell.

Matthew 25:46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and UNBELIEVING, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, SHALL HAVE THEIR PART IN THE LAKE WITH BURNETH WITH FIRE and brimstone: which is the second death.

Revelation 20:10-15
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.
13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
15 AND WHOSOEVER WAS NOT FOUND WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF LIFE WAS CAST INTO THE LAKE OF FIRE.

So basically, when Adam sinned in the Garden of Eden, he condemned us all to have to go to Hell one day.
But God offers us a way out. Faith in Jesus dying and rising again the third day as atonement for our sin.

It doesn't change just because you chose not to believe it.
I can believe with all my heart that 2+2=5, but I would be wrong. My belief does not affect the facts.

So, yes, according to the Bible, if you reject Jesus Christ and embrace Islam you have-in your own words-bought yourself a one-way ticket to Hell.

John 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but HE THAT BELIEVETH NOT IS CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

No offense, but to be honest, this whole thing sounds like one big fairytale to me. No matter where I go, it's always the same story: accept my god, my god is great, my god loves you and always will no matter what choice you make...but when it comes right down to it, it all ends up at one thing, you're going to hell if you do not accept what I am telling you as truth.

In fact, the only religious belief system I've seen so far that hasn't threatened me with eternal suffering and torture, is atheism. Which is sounding more and more appealing to me by the second.

Well, maybe being an atheist is what you should be. Simple as that.

And did you capitalize certain parts to make sure we got it, Kristen? /:

Samantha wrote: "No offense, but to be honest, this whole thing sounds like one big fairytale to me. No matter where I go, it's always the same story: accept my god, my god is great, my god loves you and always wi..."

But the difference is, Christianity isn't based on what anyone says but God. And with everything else, it's about works. Be a good person, do certain things and then maybe you'll get to Heaven or it's equivalent. Not with God, all He asks for is your faith. And with Him you can be certain of your eternal destiny.

But it's your decision. That's the wonderful thing about free will, God does not force anyone to believe in Him.

As I've said many times on these discussion groups, it's not my job to convert anybody. It's all in God's hands.
If you're truly searching for Him, He will give you the assurance you want.
Jeremiah 29:13 And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart.

Don't take my word for it, or anyone's for that matter. If you really want to know if God is real and the Bible is true, do your own research. Get alone with the Bible and read it. Look for God and you will find Him.
There is absolutely no doubt in my mind, but I won't be able to convince you, only He will be able to do that.
You just have to let Him.

*Mrs.Brightside* wrote: "Well, maybe being an atheist is what you should be. Simple as that.

And did you capitalize certain parts to make sure we got it, Kristen? /:"

I know, I just wanted to emphasize. I also know that people(myself included) don't always read the entire post :)

Samantha wrote: "Wait, so do you all believe, even if you don't tell them, that if someone isn't a christian they are automatically going to hell?"

I definitely don't. They might not be a Christian, but they can still do good deeds, and love their neighbour etc etc. And if they are for a different religion, then they might not believe they are going to hell, as their religion will tell them they will go to hell if they don't believe in that religion.

It's silly.

In fact, the only religious belief system I've seen so far that hasn't threatened me with eternal suffering and torture, is atheism.

Atheism isn't a religious belief system. It's the belief that there is no higher spiritual being, no God or gods.

Wait, so do you all believe, even if you don't tell them, that if someone isn't a christian they are automatically going to hell?

I do not believe that for one second. God is good and just. He wouldn't condemn good people to an eternity of torture, just because they do not believe in him. He is not that petty. Also, it's a little off, isn't it? How would I be happy in heaven if my dad, my brother and half my friends were in eternal torture and all I could do was watch, never speak to them again or laugh with them? What about the people whos non-Christian loved ones die? You wouldn't be able to tell them that they were in a better place, because they would be suffering eternal torture, burning in Hell. Most humans wouldn't condemn someone to that faith for any reason, and if humans wouldn't, why would God?

So no, I don't believe for one second that God would condemn someone to an eternity of torture and humiliation for such a petty reason.

I told you what the Bible says. God is not a god of your own making. He is who He is. Your belief does not change Him.
As I said, I might believe with all my heart that 2+2=5, but I would be wrong.
God is not a God of human logic. If it doesn't make sense to you, that doesn't mean it's wrong.
There has to be a basis for your belief, otherwise it's all on your own understanding which is limited and fallible.

Yes, God is good and just. Which means that He cannot be in the presence of sin. Without accepting Jesus Christ as savior, all God can see is our sin.
That was the whole reason Christ had to die, to cover our sin.

So God, allmighty as he is, is unable to see anything but our sins? Well, then he can't do everything. Tortour is the work of devils, not of God. Therefore I greatly doubt that God would ever send anyone into an eternity of torture.

Answer me this Kristen: If you died an went to heaven, and the people you loved most in the whole world went to Hell, and all you could do was watching them getting tortured and humiliated for all eternity, would you still like heaven? Would you like your eternity without the people you care about the most, and with the knowledge that they were in unbearable, eternal pain?

So God, allmighty as he is, is unable to see anything but our sins

No, when people accept Jesus our sins pass away and we become new to his eyes

Answer me this Kristen: If you died an went to heaven, and the people you loved most in the whole world went to Hell, and all you could do was watching them getting tortured and humiliated for all eternity, would you still li.....

Well to me, that is why we would tell our friends about Jesus

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "So God, allmighty as he is, is unable to see anything but our sins? Well, then he can't do everything. Tortour is the work of devils, not of God. Therefore I greatly doubt that God would ever send ..."

You're taking that out of context, it's not limiting God, but everything we do is marred by our sin. Works mean nothing if sin gets in the way.
God can not be in the presence of sin because His very essence is Holy.
Man decided to sin. God did not decide for him. And sin has consequences.
God does not send anyone to Hell(thereby torturing them), people send themselves when they reject Him. We all have a choice. As I said Hell was not created for man. It was created for Satan and his followers. If you reject God, you're choosing to follow Satan. There are only 2 options.

Yes, that would be sad, but my eternity is not based on what anyone else thinks or feels. It's based on my personal decision.
It is very sad to think that anyone would have to go to Hell b/c they reject God, but that is their choice, not mine. I can't force anyone to believe what I do. And God doesn't want it that way. He created us with a free will. He doesn't want robots. He wants people to genuinely love Him.
I mean, think about it this way do parents want to force their kids to love them? Can they always control what they do? Can they always take away the consequences for their actions?
No, they cannot. It is the same with God(only with God, He could force us to love Him).
He loves us and wants us to be with Him, but He does not force us. And actions have consequences. Without accepting the atonement for our sin, we have to pay the price ourselves.

And as much as it would hurt me, it hurts God even more. He loves every single person enough to have sent His Son to die for them in the most humiliating and brutal way possible at the time.
He doesn't want anyone there. Which is why He commands Christians to share the gospel with everyone.

But even without a person hearing the gospel or even ever seeing a Bible, there are still ways for them to come to God.
God gives us each a conscience. He gives us all a...feeling(I guess you could say), an emptiness that can only be filled by Him. That's why there are so many religions. So many "ways to God". People are searching.
I gave this example before somewhere, but I heard a missionary speak a long time ago. I forget the exact country their ministry was in. They said they felt God's calling to go to wherever it was, but they resisted Him again and again until finally they gave in. When they got there and started their work, they met one person who innately knew that there was more than the pagan tribal gods of his tribe. He knew there was a living God and he went searching. God led this missionary to him. He had never heard the gospel before. Never saw a Bible. But somehow, he knew. If he hadn't gone searching, he might have never come to God.
God doesn't promise to hand us everything on a silver platter. Sometimes it takes some effort. But it's well worth it.

And basing your belief on Hell on the idea of not wanting to watch your loved ones suffer is like saying that alcoholics won't die of liver cancer because it would be cruel to have their families watch them suffer.
By now we all know very well the effects of alcohol and tobacco on our bodies, but it's legal and people continue to use them, even knowing they are bad and will probably kill them early.
But the idea that the pain of watching them suffer is going to keep them from actually suffering is crazy.
There are consequences to choosing to smoke or choosing to drink. But it's the person's decision if they want to do it.
And I'm speaking from personal experience here - I've seen several loved ones of mine kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco. And quite a few continue to smoke heavily (thankfully there are no alcoholics in the family right now).

And to answer your question more specifically about watching every person I care about suffer in Hell:
You are using human logic again. I do not think we are going to view people the same way we do now.
Right now we are flawed. We do not love everyone the way we should - as ourselves, as the Bible says. Because if we did, our loved ones would be equal to everyone else in our minds, as far as love goes. It's not that our love for our family would diminish, but our love for everyone else would be that much greater.
We are going to be made perfect in Heaven. We will not be flawed by hatred or selfishness or anything else. We will have perfect Agape love for everyone the same way.
The family and marriage are earthly institutions. They may not be applicable in Heaven. Not in the way we know them.
It's hard to really know what it will be like in that sense since no one who's ever been there has ever come back to earth except Jesus and Lazarus. And we can't exactly ask Lazarus. Jesus is our example, He didn't have favorites, He loved(s) everyone equally.

And it's not like we are going to be able to see people in Hell. We are not going to be like God who knows and sees everything. Heaven and Hell are totally and completely separate and secluded from each other.
Will it be sad to see our loved ones cast out of Heaven at the judgment? Absolutely. But it's not up to anyone but that person to make that decision of accepting Christ.

And I don't think it's going to be something we dwell on all the time either.
I mean, who even knows what our memories are going to be like?
In light of eternity, 70 or 80 years on earth is going to be like the blink of an eye.

Man decided to sin. God did not decide for him. And sin has consequences.

Adam and Eve decided to sin. The rest of us where just thrown into a sinful world, with painful childbirths. All because of what two people did. We are all being punished for that now, without even getting the chance to prove that we can keep our hands of the forbidden fruits.


If you reject God, you're choosing to follow Satan. There are only 2 options.

That is an awfully black/white way of seeing the world. "Either you're with me or against me". No middle-ground. I find it horrible that good, nay, great people are send into an eternity of suffering, just because they did not believe. Take Ghandi. Awesome person who did nothing but good for the world. He grew up in another part of the world where Christianity isn't big at all. Even so, it doesn't matter. He was one of the greatest people of history, and he'll be suffering for eternity. Spreading peace the way he did can hardly be called the work of Satan. For Ghandi to suffer an eternity in torture just because he does not accept Christ, is not justice. He was a better man than many Christians, like Hitler.


It is very sad to think that anyone would have to go to Hell b/c they reject God, but that is their choice

Where did you grow up? I'm guessing you grew up in a somewhat Christian society. Society has a great impact on a person, so a person who has grown up in India would be less likely to know much about Christianity. They wouldn't consider it the truth, because they wouldn't know enough about it to understand what it is.

And actions have consequences. Without accepting the atonement for our sin, we have to pay the price ourselves.

So actions of good have the consequence of hell. It doesn't matter how much good a person does in life, if he doesn't accept Jesus, it will all be for nothing, and he might as well run around on the street and shoot everybody in sight, or start WW3. It wouldn't make a difference, since the person would end in hell whether he save lives or took lives.

God led this missionary to him. He had never heard the gospel before. Never saw a Bible. But somehow, he knew.

So God led him. Well, why doesn't he lead everbody then? Why only select people who are allowed to have the knowledge they need, as opposed to the people who have never heard of Christianity and have not been led anwhere by God?

And basing your belief on Hell on the idea of not wanting to watch your loved ones suffer is like saying that alcoholics won't die of liver cancer because it would be cruel to have their families watch them suffer.

No it is not. If I wathced someone die of liver cancer, I could just think that they would be in a better place. If I watched someone suffer for eternity, I would not be able to tell myself that they're in a better place.

And I'm speaking from personal experience here - I've seen several loved ones of mine kill themselves with alcohol and tobacco. And quite a few continue to smoke heavily.

I am sorr for you loss, it's horrible what people do to themselves. You are, however, not the only one who's had a tough life, and watched friends die slowly.

Right now we are flawed. We do not love everyone the way we should - as ourselves, as the Bible says.

That's another thing: What about the people who do not like themselves? The people who are depressed, anorexic, suicidal, etc.

It's not that our love for our family would diminish, but our love for everyone else would be that much greater.

The more, the worse. The more people we love, the more people we'll know suffer in eternal torture.

The family and marriage are earthly institutions. They may not be applicable in Heaven. Not in the way we know them.

If they are not, why does marriage matter? Why do people have to marry, why is it not allowed to break marriage? If it doesn't matter in the end anyway, what's the point?

And it's not like we are going to be able to see people in Hell. We are not going to be like God who knows and sees everything.

Doesn't matter. We'll still know where they are, and we'll still know that they're suffering, while all we can do is sit in a perfect place and enjoy. Just the thought of it sickens me.

Will it be sad to see our loved ones cast out of Heaven at the judgment? Absolutely.

I don't think sad covers it. As it is, I would rather not spend eternity without the people who are most important to me in my life, whom I've shared everything with and who've stood besides me when I needed them. I wouldn't be able to see them be cast into hell without doing and saying lot of things I really shouldn't.

But it's not up to anyone but that person to make that decision of accepting Christ.

Let's back up for a second to something I said earlier about societies affect on us. Where I live, Christianity is not that big. People don't think much about religion in general, and many Christians don't go to church or pray. Growing up in such a society makes believing in God a little harder than growing up in a Christian society would. People don't give it much thought.

And I don't think it's going to be something we dwell on all the time either.

Speak for yourself. I would be planning all kinds of revenge, or ways to get them out of hell. Or both.

I mean, who even knows what our memories are going to be like?

I dunno about you, but I rather like my memories. I would not like anyone, not even God, to mess with my memories, to change the way I view things that has happened, and people I love.

Julie, who are you talking to? If you're talking to me, I can tell you that the first thing I said when I joined this group was that if believing everything in the Bible is required, I'd take my leave. No one said that it is required. Besides, does being a Christian really include believing every last story in the Bible? Because then I ain't one. Now, please correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the only requirements for being a Christian that you believe in Christ and God? Does the Bible say that to be a true believer you must believe everthing the Bible tells you?

The Bible used to be the word of God. However, by now it's been changed trough translations and greedy leaders who wanted it to fit their own agenda, causing many things in the Bible to be either extremely exaggerated or outright lies. Though the people who originally wrote down the words for God where good and just trying to get the truth out, not every person trough time has been like them. People have used it to achieve a personal goal, to make people do as they want them to. The Bible has been corrupted and changed trough the many years it has been around.
At least, that is my opinion on the Bible.

Ah yes, but you only think he wouldn't allow it because it says so in the Bible.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Man decided to sin. God did not decide for him. And sin has consequences.

Adam and Eve decided to sin. The rest of us where just thrown into a sinful world, with painful childbirths. All because o..."

I probably will not respond to alot of that b/c I'm not going to debate with you. Also alot of what you said shows great ignorance of Christianity, God and His love and quite frankly I'm not in the mood to go through every little detail with you.

However, I will say this. Adam and Eve were the best possible representatives we could have had. They were created perfectly. But with a free will.
And step into any nursery. You sin before you even know you're doing it. Kids are selfish and hateful at times. It's human nature. Kids are just more up front about it.

"That is an awfully black/white way of seeing the world. "Either you're with me or against me"."
Yes it is. And if you look back, you've almost quoted Luke 11:35. Eternity is black and white with God. Your liking of that fact makes no difference to God.

"Where did you grow up?"
Inner city, Chicago.
People really shouldn't make assumptions like that. You have no idea what I've gone through in my life to make me believe the way that I do.


"So actions of good have the consequence of hell"
No, sin has the consequence of Hell. And until you get that sin taken care of, nothing else matters. Not to God.
Think of it this way. A four year old wants to help his mom out by making breakfast. So he gets up real early and takes out what - to him- seems like a great breakfast. He works his hardest and makes a nice big bowl of all the food he can get his grubby little hands on.
When he's finished he's a mess and so is the kitchen.
Do you think that mother is going to be super happy about the 'breakfast' he made?
No, she's just going to see a big mess and aot of work for her to do. He had good motivation, but the result wasn't so great.

"So God led him. Well, why doesn't he lead everbody then?"
Not everybody goes searching. Not everybody looks in the right places. Alot of people allow themselves to be deceived by Satan.
God promises that if you look for Him with your whole heart, you will find him.

"You are, however, not the only one who's had a tough life, and watched friends die slowly."
Never said I was. Just that I know what I'm talking about from personal experience.

"What about the people who do not like themselves? The people who are depressed, anorexic, suicidal, etc."
Those people have problems and need help. But they are all essentially selfish. In a twisted way, but still, selfish.
Suicide is a selfish option. They don't care about how their actions will affect everyone else, it's the easy solution FOR THEM. It will ease their suffering (or so they think) and make them happy. Because they love themselves and don't want to suffer anymore.
Anorexics are unhappy because they don't think they're beautiful. They want to be beautiful because they love themselves.
People are depressed because things aren't the way they would like them to be. It's just selfishness again.
If people really didn't love themselves, bad things that happen would roll off their backs. They would think whatever it was didn't really matter because they wouldn't think they were all that important.
As I said it's a twisted way of showing how you love yourself, but yes, they do.

"why does marriage matter?"
Marriage is a picture of God's relationship with the church. Christ is the bridegroom, we are the bride.
God is a jealous God. The way a husband is jealous of his wife.
In the Jewish culture(at least in the Bible - not sure if it's still like this today), the couple got engaged and they were as good as married in the eyes of the law. Not that they would act on it, but they would belong to each other. The bridegroom would use that engagement period to get the house and everything ready and then one day he would come for his bride.
This is a picture of Jesus coming back for the Christians. He says "I go to prepare a place for you" and "I will come again".
There are ALL kinds of symbolic things in the marriage ceremony. For instance, the ring. Being a circle, it represents how love has no end.

Eternity is black and white with God.

What a great eternity. That sounds extremely boring, to be honest. That everyone is either good or bad, things are either black or white. No reds or blues.

People really shouldn't make assumptions like that. You have no idea what I've gone through in my life to make me believe the way that I do.

And you have no idea what I've gone trough to make me view the world the way I do. Anyway, you took the sentence out of it's contense. As I said, people in India will be less likel to understand Christianity because they know little about it.

No, sin has the consequence of Hell. And until you get that sin taken care of, nothing else matters. Not to God.

That's my point. No matter how much good you do with your life, it wont matter in the end, unless you're a Christian. It wont make a difference if you run around on the street and shoot people, if you take over the world and kill everybody you don't like or if you spread peace and love whereever you go. If you don't believe in Christ, then you might as well not have done anything good in your life.

Think of it this way. A four year old wants to help his mom out by making breakfast. So he gets up real early and takes out what - to him- seems like a great breakfast. He works his hardest and makes a nice big bowl of all the food he can get his grubby little hands on.
When he's finished he's a mess and so is the kitchen.
Do you think that mother is going to be super happy about the 'breakfast' he made?

Actually, I'm pretty sure the mom would be touched by the gesture, rather than annoyed by the mess. If my little brother did that, I wouldn't care much about the mess, I would just smile and think I had the best little brother in the whole world. I know my mom would think the same thing.

Not everybody goes searching. Not everybody looks in the right places. Alot of people allow themselves to be deceived by Satan.

Hard to go searching when you know next to nothing about Christianity.



Anorexics are unhappy because they don't think they're beautiful. They want to be beautiful because they love themselves.

Uhm, no. That is rarely the case. Sure, it can be a factor to take into consideration, but anorexia usually occurs when a person feels like they have no control over their own life, that the only thing they can control is the amount of food they eat. Stress is usually a factor to be considered too, since their lives tend to be hectic.

As I said it's a twisted way of showing how you love yourself, but yes, they do.

That's not love for yourself. That's a desperate scream for help. That's those people trying hard to become something they can love and be proud of.

Marriage is a picture of God's relationship with the church.

But, why does it have to be a loving, opposite gender couple? Why can't it just be two friends who make a pact? If we all love each other equally when we die, then I don't see why marriage has to be between a man and a woman, and has to involve living together, having sex, concieving children. Why not just a pact with a person you care about, but don't want to live with for the rest of your life?

Julie wrote: "The choice is yours.."

The choice is yours too.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "And you have no idea what I've gone trough to make me view the world the way I do. Anyway, you took the sentence out of it's contense. As I said, people in India will be less likel to understand Christianity because they know little about it."

Yes, and I made no assumptions about you.
And I'm not talking about the religion. I'm talking about God. God is not a religion. You can know God is real without knowing about Christianity.
And knowing God is real would lead the person to find out as much as they can about Him.

"That's my point. No matter how much good you do with your life, it..."

Not really, no. Just like there are varying degrees of punishments for people who break the law, there are varying degrees of punishments with God. For example, Hitler will be judged much more harshly than someone who only chose not to believe in God.
I think Hell is going to be a very personal place. God knows every single thing that everyone has ever done or thought and will judge accordingly.
But yes, you cannot get to Heaven without Christ.

And no offense, but that sounds like a very shallow reason to do good things. For eternal points? Aren't we supposed to do good for the sake of doing good? To help others? Not to earn our way to Heaven?


Actually I've been in the situation of the 4 year old. It's still aggravating. Sweet gesture, yes. But something you'd rather they not do. Especially if you've got 4 kids as my brother does and have many many other things to worry about.

"Hard to go searching when you know next to nothing about Christianity."
Hard, but not impossible. God never said it would be easy.

"Uhm, no. That is rarely the case. Sure, it can be a factor to take into consideration, but anorexia usually occurs when a person feels like they have no control over their own life"

And why does having control matter? If they didn't love themselves essentially, it wouldn't matter.

"That's those people trying hard to become something they can love and be proud of."

Again, why should it matter?


"But, why does it have to be a loving, opposite gender couple?"

God says homosexuality is sin. It perverts God's holy institution.
And don't bother replying with the 'you only believe that b/c it's in the Bible' phrase. I won't reply.
We know who God is from the Bible. He gave it to us so we could know.
And yes, there are various translations, but I do not embrace them all.The KJV is the most accurate English version there is. The only "inaccuracies" come from the language barrier. But it's basically verbatim.
Even if it was a question of a specific verse or whatever, God destroyed cities because of it. That should indicate how He feels about it.

Isn't the NIV version better?

Not really, no. Just like there are varying degrees of punishments for people who break the law, there are varying degrees of punishments with God. For example, Hitler will be judged much more harshly than someone who only chose not to believe in God.

Yet they will still be judged, still suffer an eternity in hell. And that no matter how much good they did.

And no offense, but that sounds like a very shallow reason to do good things. For eternal points? Aren't we supposed to do good for the sake of doing good? To help others? Not to earn our way to Heaven?

Is it though? Is it shallow for a person to not care, if they're going to spend an eternity in hell even if they did? Of course, if they did think the were going to spend an eternity in hell, the would also believe in some sort of God. I myself have never done a good deed for the sake of avoiding hell.


Actually I've been in the situation of the 4 year old. It's still aggravating. Sweet gesture, yes. But something you'd rather they not do. Especially if you've got 4 kids as my brother does and have many many other things to worry about.

Hard, but not impossible. God never said it would be easy.

As good as. African girls, trapped in the city they were born in, getting married when they're way too young, getting kids way too young, working their shoes off every day.

And why does having control matter? If they didn't love themselves essentially, it wouldn't matter.

Of course it would. They look around and see the people who are confident about who they are, who love themselves and they want that.

iAnd don't bother replying with the 'you only believe that b/c it's in the Bible' phrase. I won't reply.

I wasn't intending to. My question wasn't why being gay is a sin, my question was why it has to be a loving marriage like it is. Why can't it be a pact between friends that resembles it?

*Mrs.Brightside* wrote: "Isn't the NIV version better?"

No. Why would you think it's better?
Not being confrontational. Just wondering.

*Mrs.Brightside* wrote: "Isn't the NIV version better?"

Holy cow, I thought you said NV.
*Wipes forhead with relief*

Well, it explains things more clearly than KJV. But I like KJV better anyways.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Yet they will still be judged, still suffer an eternity in hell. And that no matter how much good they did."

Yes, because they are sinners and rejected the savior.
Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us,

Our sin debt is so huge, that nothing we can do can ever repay it. God had mercy on us and sent His Son to take our place.
To reject that is to throw God's sacrifice back in His face.

"As good as. African girls, trapped in the city they were born in, getting married when they're way too young, getting kids way too young, working their shoes off every day."

They can still come to God.
Luke 1:37 For with God nothing shall be impossible.

"My question wasn't why being gay is a sin, my question was why it has to be a loving marriage like it is. Why can't it be a pact between friends that resembles it?"

I'm still sort of confused here. Are you asking about marriage? Civil unions? Friendship?

Yes, because they are sinners and rejected the savior.

Which is a petty reason to send someone to an eternity of torture. Anywa, I think we've been over this. You go on believing that people go to hell for not accepting Christ, and I go on believing people go to heaven if they're good people - Christ or no Christ.

They can still come to God.

How so? I doubt that they would have the time to take on a long trip to find God. And even finding him where they must be hard when you know next to nothing about him, you own no Bible and even if you did your reading skills are poor.

I'm still sort of confused here. Are you asking about marriage? Civil unions? Friendship?

No, I'm asking why our "picture of Gods relationship with the church" has to be an intimate tie between two people, who'll then live together for the rest of their lives, have sex and concieve children. Why can't it just be good friends who make a pact, still out of love, but another kind?

and I go on believing people go to heaven if they're good people

1: no one is entirely good to earn a eternity with God
2: The bible even says that no one can get into Heaven with only good works
3: Why would God take everyone up to heaven when not every one believes in him. And if it was like that, there would be no hell. If there was no hell, the bible would be lying and everything gets screwed up

you own no Bible and even if you did your reading skills are poor

How about the people who they work with? They might be Christians and spread the Good News to them.

2: The bible even says that no one can get into Heaven with only good works

As I've already explained, I do not believe the Bible is still unchanged.

3: Why would God take everyone up to heaven when not every one believes in him. And if it was like that, there would be no hell. If there was no hell, the bible would be lying and everything gets screwed up

How do you figure that? Do you think a person such as Hitler would go to heaven? I doubt it. However, a person such a Ghandi... Well, if anyone deserves heaven it would be him, and people like him.

How about the people who they work with? They might be Christians and spread the Good News to them.

Huh? Sorry, that is confusing. I'm talking about remote african villages.

However, a person such a Ghandi... Well, if anyone deserves heaven it would be him, and people like him.

Well who is to say what is good or not? Hitlers followers probably thought they were doing good (I am guessing by people who I debate with). And when people had slaves back in history, they thought it was all good and decent to own people.

Huh? Sorry, that is confusing. I'm talking about remote african villages

Sorry
How about the Missionary's or the Christan's stations on the radio?

Well who is to say what is good or not? Hitlers followers probably thought they were doing good (I am guessing by people who I debate with).

But they weren't. They killed people, tortured people (much like hell). The ten commandments clearly state that killing is not allowed, so yes, if anyone deserved to go to hell it would be Hitler.

How about the Missionary's or the Christan's stations on the radio?

I doubt the people I'm talking about have a radio.

Yes to you they were evil, but to the followers he was a good man. The point I am making is that people have different expectations of Good. And if God just gave heaven to the Good, then everyone would be in there

I doubt the people I'm talking about have a radio

Why not? Have you ever heard of Radio Ministry's?
My church is involved in it and yes, people in third world countries do have radio

Yes to you they were evil, but to the followers he was a good man. The point I am making is that people have different expectations of Good. And if God just gave heaven to the Good, then everyone would be in there

I sincerly doubt it. We don't decide who goes to heaven, God does. What I doubt is, that God would send a person to hell for not believing in him and/or Christ.


Why not? Have you ever heard of Radio Ministry's?

No. I live in Denmark.

My church is involved in it and yes, people in third world countries do have radio

Correction: SOME do. There're plenty of villages that doesn't even have electricity, much less a radio.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "Yes to you they were evil, but to the followers he was a good man. The point I am making is that people have different expectations of Good. And if God just gave heaven to the Good, then everyone w..."

Well if you doubt that God doesn't take everyone to heaven and doubt that he sends people to hell for not believing in him, then what do you really believe he does?

SOME do. There're plenty of villages that doesn't even have electricity, much less a radio.

Oh you would be surprised

*Mrs.Brightside* wrote: "Well, it explains things more clearly than KJV. But I like KJV better anyways."

The NIV changes things. And God says that's not ok. Matthew 5:18, Deuteronomy 4:2, Revelation 22:19

The Hebrew language was VERY specific. Much more so than English. In English, one word could mean quite a few different things and you determine which one by context. Hebrew isn't like that.
For example, the word 'you'. It could be singular or plural. You could be talking to 1 person, 2 people, or 1,000 people.
But Hebrew is specific. And with the KJV, it doesn't say 'you', it says 'ye' and 'thee' and 'thou' etc. It's as close to the original text as you can get. I mean, unless you can read Hebrew and Greek.

You cannot improve upon God's word. If it's hard for us to understand, we are what needs to change, not the Bible.
If there's something you don't understand, that's what your pastor is for. Or this handy little group on goodreads :)

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "I doubt that they would have the time to take on a long trip to find God. And even..."

Who said anything about a trip? God is omnipresent. He is everywhere. All it takes for me is to look outside during a sunset or a rainstorm to "see God". You don't need a Bible to tell you about God.
If someone really wants to find Him, God will make sure they do. He works in ALL kinds of ways.

"No, I'm asking why our "picture of Gods relationship with the church" has to be an..."

So, you're asking me to explain to you God's reasoning as to why He chose to use marriage as a picture?
That I could not tell you. I just know He did.
We cannot presume to know God's mind, we as humans cannot even comprehend everything about Him, let alone his reasoning. We just aren't capable of understanding Him fully.
And I wouldn't want to. I forget the person that said it, but I saw this quote "a god who is small enough to be understood is not big enough to be worshiped." or something like that anyway...That was the main idea. And it's true, personally, I like the idea that my God is so big that I can't possibly understand Him.

And I'm not discrediting love if it's not within a marriage. God says that Agape love, or brotherly love is the highest form of love there is.
"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends." John 15:13
It's what Christ did for us.

N.S.A (Search for the truth) wrote: "If there was no hell, the bible would be lying and everything gets screwed up"

If the Bible is lying then God is a liar and there would be absolutely no reason to believe anything else it says.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "But they weren't. They killed people, tortured people (much like hell). The ten commandments clearly state..."

Well, why believe the ten commandments if you don't believe what the Bible says about Hell? I mean, if one part of the Bible is false, what makes the rest accurate?
And what does that have to do with going to Hell? Are you saying if someone breaks the commandments, they are going to Hell? Because I'm pretty sure every single person alive has broken most if not all of them.
1. Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
2. Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth:
3. Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain;
4. Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.
5. Honour thy father and thy mother:
6. Thou shalt not kill.
7. Thou shalt not commit adultery.
8. Thou shalt not steal.
9. Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbour.
10. Thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's house, thou shalt not covet thy neighbour's wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his ass, nor any thing that is thy neighbour's.


I know I fall short on some of these - actually alot of these. Everyone does. God doesn't qualify them by saying that it has to be on a large scale, He doesn't say one little white lie is ok, but if you lie all the time, then you go to Hell. He just says lying -at all- is wrong.

1. Having "other god's" doesn't just mean a little idol that you pray to. It can be anything in your life that is more important than God. It can be another person.
2. Ever known anyone to have a statue of Mary or Buddah or to have a shrine of some sort?
3. Pretty common on tv and anywhere else nowadays. Ever use the letters "OMG" in a sentence? or say the words? And saying 'gosh' isn't much better. It's pretty much the same thing.
4. Ever skip church? Do you stop on Sundays and dwell on God?
5. Um, yeah. pretty sure we've all screwed up on this one.
6. God says hating is the same as killing in His eyes. "As a man thinketh in his heart, so is he"
7. Again same verse; ever lusted after anyone? You don't have to actually act on it, it's still adultery.
8. Stealing doesn't just have to be going out and robbing a bank. If you slack off at work, you're stealing time from your employer.
9. Ever told a lie?
10. Ever wanted something that did not belong to you?


If you base who's going to Heaven on who keeps the ten commandments, None of us are going to Heaven.

Emma (Snowy thoughts) wrote: "We don't decide who goes to heaven, God does."

But isn't that what you're doing? Basing the qualifications of Heaven and Hell on your own logic and not what God says?

N.S.A (Search for the truth) wrote: "The point I am making is that people have different expectations of Good. And if God just gave heaven to the Good, then everyone would be in there"

Exactly!