C. S. Lewis discussion

The Problem of Pain

A Place for group discussion regarding the problem of Pain by CS Lewis that some of us have decided to read together... join us even if you didn't start a week or so ago (March 11thish 2011) ... Feel free to read and remark as the spirit moves you.

Reading this book once again I am struck by the following quote

"We regard God as an airman regards his parachute; it's there for emergencies but he hopes he'll never have to use it."

It seems to me that this is how so many of us treat our relationship of faith (indeed many of our relationships)... its a safety net or a source of "good feeling" to know that it is there JUST IN CASE...

How do we then take the universal reality of the experience of Pain and grow that into connections that we tap into more often than just when we are in crisis? What does it take in the moments when we are not suffering on a personal level to get us to seek out those who are suffering either in our neighborhood, our church, our home (especially if we have teens in our life) -

How can we build AAA relationships where we open ourselves to each other and invite each other to be authentic, available, and affirming of one another?

For me it begins with recognizing that suffering from pain is not a sign of weakness or a sign that there is something "wrong" with me or you or anyone else... pain is something we universally experience... it is a sign and a symbol that something is happening. Sometimes that something is good... such as in child-birth (so I am told) sometimes it is not so desirable ... such as in that moment you step on that protruding nail and as it breaks the skin you flinch back so it doesn't get shoved all the way through your foot...

When we get to a place in our relationships with others where we can freely admit and reveal the things and moments that cause us pain, then we know we are seeing each other for the whole self we truly are...

What say you all??

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that pain indicates change whether positively or negatively. Some consider God as a safety net, to be used in the distant future. But for today, they confide in their close friends. Is that correct?

I believe that a relationship with God is an intimate one. Personally, on a daily basis for the last 13 years, I have known great pain -- physical, mental and spiritual. Honestly, I wouldn't be here today without my relationship with God. (I became a Christian just before I was diagnosed. How? Someone gave me a bible and I was bedridden & sick of TV and started reading the bible, and it "clicked.") But what was also very important was intercessory prayer from my (new) church. Sharing my pain with others (in my case, many were strangers) and learning how to receive help (which I found so much harder -- they brought food, gift cards.) was amazing. I had to let go of being in control and trust that God would/will take care of it. It is a daily process of surrendering and being obedient.

Carol, not sure if that was what I was trying to say but I don't disagree with what you are saying... I have recently started thinking that most of what I say or write in any given moment should come with the disclaimers "in my opinion" and or "according to the experiences I have had" ... so I don't presume to understand PAIN as a universal concept and experience for others by any means... and yet, as a pastor I have walked with so many people through so many different types of pain and painful experiences that I have started to see patterns in behavior and responses from the various personalities... which makes sense when one thinks about it since we are all human and share so much by simply sharing this small island we call earth.

You make some wonderful points about the need to learn to receive help and how hard that can be for so many people... I've moved on to reading C.S. Lewis' small book on grief and it has this interesting section on being an embarrassment.

In this section he says... "Part of every misery is, so to speak, the misery's shadow or reflection: the fact that you don't merely suffer but have to keep on thinking about the fact that you suffer. I not only live each endless day in grief, but live each day thinking about living each day in grief.... An Odd by product of my loss is that I am aware of being ad embarrassment to everyone I meet.... Perhaps the bereaved ought to be isolated in special settlements like lepers."

Coupling these reflections from Grief and Problem of Pain, I think about the fact that people don't like to be uncomfortable and that people feel uncomfortable when they see someone suffering or when they don't know what to say to someone who has suffered a loss or is living in Pain... Seriously!!! How often can you say to someone in Chronic Pain that "I'll pray for you!" when at least in that small room in your heart where your controlled cynic makes their living space you add on... "But I can't promise that it will help you in any way."

But for me the key is to not make someone else's grief or pain "about me" ... its not about what I know to say or if I can provide comfort... I have found healing power in the words... "There really isn't anything good to say in the face of something like this but Please know I grieve with you and for you and am deeply sorry for your loss."

And other times just living the words from Holly Cole's song, "Cry if You Want To" where the singer promises not to try and cheer you up... not to try and fix the situation that cannot be fixed.

If you haven't heard the song here is a vid I made with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUByAC...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kUByAC...

Hope you enjoy and get something out of it.

But as I was saying most times I try and follow that example in times of grief and pain ... I can't fix what has been broken and as often as I have prayed for the power I cannot as of yet lay on hands and heal the pains that people suffer physically, emotionally, mentally and spiritually... much to my chagrin!

With CS Lewis as I read both The Problem of Pain and Grief... I am again assured that pain and grief are universal emotions and experiences that we all share and I therefore don't HAVE to fix them or cure them to walk with others in and through them... but that sure doesn't make such times any easier to get through as we all well know.

Thanks Matthew, good video. Grief is challenging, I recently went through a year where I lost nine people I loved. It seems every month we were going to a funeral. Majority were from 17 to 56. One of my best friends who was awaiting the birth of her first grandchild was diagnosed with ovarian cancer. She died 4 months after her diagnosis. Her pregnant daughter was devastated as were most people who loved her. She gave birth to the baby and suffered from a stroke where it was touch and go. When she came out of it, she had no emotion anymore. She did everything that was expected of her and after her daughter's first birthday, she took her life by lying on the train tracks near her home. I honestly could not understand how this could happen. All i could think of was that she would not be with her mom since she committed suicide and the pain she must have felt during her death. I prayed greatly over this. God did place in my heart that she asked God to forgive her when she laid on the tracks, so she is in Heaven and she was taken before the train came. In a million years, I never would have thought of that. Plus I felt that the Lord wanted me to tell her husband/father. It was difficult for me to do it, but I knew I had to be obedient. When I was walking, I stop by and told him everything. He broke down and shared his thoughts which were the same as mine. Sharing this with him gave him peace, and allowed him to confide in me with other things.

I had also heard from a friend that to grieve is really that I am being selfish for my loss. That I will miss all of her earthly life. Instead I should be happy for her since she is in Heaven, experiencing no pain as she was with her illness. I should be celebrating her life, not mourning her death.

Throughout my challenges, I have had many people in the church pray for me, and lay hands on me. It made me feel that I was loved, and that no matter what, I was not alone. For me that was extremely important. Many sent cards and food. Believe or not emails are great. The father of a friend was very ill. Throughout his illness they would send emails with specific prayer request. It was great to be able to help with prayer and after his death, we became closer as a result of "going through" it with them. Our Pastor's son was sick and hospitalized. It was great that the hospital offered a page where the parents could report how he did that day, and as he got better, even photos.

Thanks! I will check out Lewis book on Grief.

I thought that this was a great book and it would make for a great discussion.

What is the source of our problem?
Man, not God. We are wicked by nature (the fall). Lewis called man "vermin" -- destructive, obnoxious, and dangerous.

What is divine goodness?
God's love means He wants what is best for us; what's best for us is God. We were made by Him and for Him, and we will only be really happy when we are in harmony with Him. Humans fell and we now exist in a constant state of rebellion. We do not, according to Lewis, understand just how wicked we are. Once we do, God's severity no longer seems severe.

What is pain?
* Pain tells us everything is not right in our lives.
* Pain tells us what we have is not enough.
* Pain is part of God's definition of goodness and necessary to learn self-surrender. He uses the analogy of a dog and his master. At first the discipline is hard, but later the dog enjoys the benefits of it that wild dogs do not. God is conforming us into the image of Christ, which requires suffering.

What is Hell?
God does not like Hell but according to Lewis it is both moral and necessary for those who persist in their rebellion. In a way, it is giving those simply refuse God and want to live their life their way. They will be in charge of their life, although it will be in Hell.

What is Heaven?
It is the ultimate prize. The bible insists that what we suffer here, is nothing in comparison to what we will be given in the next life. Lewis says that In this life, we all desire something unnamable; we know that we're missing something though we may not be able to say exactly what. That thing we're missing is that part of God we have been made to especially love. "Your place in heaven will seem to be made for you and you alone, because you were made for it." Once we receive this prize, we will realize that it was worth everything we went through to get there.

Lewis also writes about animal pain. If you have pets, you know how much they mean to you and how difficult it is to see them suffer and eventually die. What I got out of this chapter was that although animals can have pain, that they lack consciousness so they do not suffer as humans suffer.