The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

As most of you know, Jude the Obscure was Thomas Hardy's last novel. It was also one of his novel-length works that he worked on the longest. He started the novel in 1890; began seriously outlining the plot in 1892 through 1893, and essentially finished it in 1895. Serialization of Jude the Obscure began in Harper's New Monthly Magazine (published simultaneously in London and New York), from December 1894 through November 1895. Interestingly, its first serial installment was entitled, The Simpletons. The next eleven serial installments were entitled Hearts Insurgent, before Hardy finally chose the title Jude the Obscure. After its serial run, it was published in book form and the original text was restored from the 'bowdlerized' text of the serial. I am quite sure that during the course of our group read that we'll have a significant discussion about the rationale for Hardy having to modify, or bowdlerize, his text for serial publication.

While Hardy is acknowledged as one of the great fiction writers of the Victorian period, especially the latter half of the era, he is just as well known as one of the great poets of the early modern era/early-20th century. As much as I love Hardy's fiction, I truly adore his poetry. I plan on sharing some of Hardy's poetry that has direct relationships or alludes to elements of the story told in Jude the Obscure. Some of these poems were written well before he wrote the novel, and some were written following the publication of the novel. This tells me that there are themes, thoughts, and feelings expressed in these poems and the novel that were very meaningful to Hardy.

For your information, some of the reference materials that I will be utilizing during the course of our group read and discussion include the following:

Jude the Obscure (Everyman's Library by Thomas Hardy, Everyman's Library, Knopf, 1992.
Thomas Hardy: The Complete Poems, edited by James Gibson, Palgrave, 2001.
Thomas Hardy By Claire Tomalin, The Penguin Press, 2006.
Thomas Hardy: A Biography Revisited by Michael Millgate, Oxford University Press, 2006.
Women and Sexuality in the Novels of Thomas Hardy by Rosemarie Morgan, Routledge, 1988.
Thomas Hardy A to Z: The Essential Reference to His Life and Work by Sarah Bird Wright, Checkmark Books, 2002.

Finally, I want to leave you with a thought-provoking quote from Hardy's writing journal of 1895--

"Love lives on propinquity, but dies of contact."

While of few words, it is my humble opinion that this aphorism of Hardy's tends to shed a lot of light on much of his fiction and poetry.

I look forward to your initial thoughts and comments as we get started on Thomas Hardy's Jude the Obscure.

And just as a gentle reminder-- Please do remember to be careful with 'spoilers' associated with later sections of the novel. Thank you!

Bill wrote: "Christopher wrote: "As most of you know, Jude the Obscure was Thomas Hardy's last novel. It was also one of his novel-length works that he worked on the longest. He started the novel in 1890; beg..."

Bill, I caution you to not read too much into that particular quote just yet. Also, I strongly disagree that it is only about "erotic love" too. I honestly don't know how much Hardy you've read to this point, but as you get further into "Jude" I think you'll begin to get a better feel for what Hardy meant with that little quotation of his. Okay? Cheers!

This is my 2nd time reading a novel by Hardy, but I am starting to notice a certain pattern within. I love his prose and writing style, and I do quite enjoy reading his books, and I generally find the story itself to be interesting, but there is something about his "heroes" or "heroines" which I find somewhat off putting in the way in which they are portrayed. The first book I read of his Tess of the D'Urbervilles I was taken in with the writing of the book, but Tess herself I was always lukewarm on.

At the onset of this story I noticed the same thing start to happen. I am really enjoying reading the story, but from the get go for some reason that I cannot really put my finger on Jude just does not appeal to me that much. I cannot say I dislike him, but I suppose my feelings for him are rather neutral. And I was in fact let hoping that as the story progressed something would happen in which develop stronger feelings for Jude.

Though a part of me knows that I cannot or should not fault a young man for being taken in by a beautiful young woman, and have an attraction to her. There was something about the way in which he was so easily distracted from his grand ambitions of learning and advancing himself by Arabella that did sort of annoy me.

Bill wrote: "Silver wrote: "At the onset of this story I noticed the same thing start to happen. I am really enjoying reading the story, but from the get go for some reason that I cannot really put my finger on..."

You make some interesting points about the aspect of Jude's loneliness of which I have not considered before, and that loneliness of his could explain some of the aspects of his personality which at first do somewhat offput me. As well it may explain why he does become so caught up in Arabella as he does. Perhaps it is just a longing within him for some sort of warm companionship from another person which seems to be lacking in his life. Though it seems as if he had some sort of close relationship with Philloston before his leave-taking. And I can only imagine what it might do to someone to grow up with an aunt who constantly reminds them they would have been better off if they died with their parents

Bill wrote: "His dreaming about Christminster--that city of light; his going out at night to see it glowing in the distance. I was feeling this with him.
"

That's an image that is perhaps a bit of a challenge for modern readers to really appreciate. We are surrounded by light, and our cities emit huge glows either directly or on the horizon with all their powerful electric lighting. Very few of us have the experience of being outdoors on a totally dark night and seeing just one small cluster of light far in the distance. I think the image would have both more familiar and more powerful for Hardy's original readers.

Everyman wrote: Very few of us have the experience of being outdoors on a totally dark night and seeing just one small cluster of light far in the distance..."

That image brings to mind the time I spend up in the mountains when the stars are unbelievably brilliant and endless. Especially if you can find a clear open spot..

Silver wrote: "Everyman wrote: Very few of us have the experience of being outdoors on a totally dark night and seeing just one small cluster of light far in the distance..."

That image brings to mind the time..."

If you imagine just one star in an otherwise black sky, I think you'll get what Hardy was talking about. We are so use to light everywhere (not only the obvious lights from cars and houses and, in cities streetlights) but car lights on the road and maybe shining into the bedroom from time to time, neighbors security lights left on all night, airliners flying overhead ... it is very seldom that any modern American ever experiences true outdoor darkness of the kind that was a common experience in Hardy's countryside.

Everyman wrote: "... it is very seldom that any modern American ever experiences true outdoor darkness of the kind that was a common experience in Hardy's countryside. ..."

That kind of darkness truly is quite an awe inspiring experience. Though perhaps I have not experienced to the extent as it would have been in a world in which there was no electricity at all. In my experiences of camping and the time I spend in the mountains I think I have drawn close to the experience. And it never fails to impress me. It is in its way a beautiful thing perhaps today more so because it is so rare.

It also makes me think of when the power goes out here, one of the things I love about it is writing by candlelight. It makes me feel like I am in the 1800's

Silver wrote: "There was something about the way in which he was so easily distracted from his grand ambitions of learning and advancing himself by Arabella that did sort of annoy me."

At first, I felt annoyed as well, then I thought of all the men who have allowed sexual desire to disrupt their lives, often with catastrophic consequences-look at Berlusconi. And Bill Clinton. And countless others.

Jude strikes me as a very, very lonely individual, who has had no emotional guidance whatsoever and no experience with friends or lovers. It is not surprising his first encounter with an attractive young woman undoes him completely.

@Bill-I thought when the mist cleared and Jude saw the lights of Christminster for the first time, it was almost a magical, or mystical experience.

I might not have been clear enough about why I made the point about darkness and Christminster. It's not just a matter of difference between then and now, but it's that the power of thee image -- the impact that the glow from a city would have might not seem truly powerful to us, but I think would have to Hardy's readers, and would have made them realize just how much emotional power Christchurch exerted on Jude. Seems to me it was more than an intellectual yearning; it was a more visceral, raw emotional power.

Everyman wrote: "I might not have been clear enough about why I made the point about darkness and Christminster. It's not just a matter of difference between then and now, but it's that the power of thee image -- ..."

Yes I understood what you meant sorry if my reflections diverged off course too much. But to return back to your first point. It seems there is also some symbolic meaning in the image that such a place which so happens to be named "Christminister" of all things and is known for its theological pursuits and religion is this shining image of light in the darkness of Jude's life.

It does offer him that flicker of hope in the bleakness in which he has to live with in his daily life.

How lovely to wake up to Chris' wonderful introduction to the novel and to all these insightful posts!

I was first of all struck by the way the first chapter shows the hamlet of Marygeen in a state of transition between the old and the new - an old church has been knocked down to make way for a new one and old houses have also been demolished. This is indicative of what was happening in England at that time. (Ref my Background post 2 about Gothic revivalist architecture.)

Jude's young life is also being affected by the departure of his schoolmaster who is going to Christminster (Oxford). The vision of a university life is dangled before him by Pillotson, perhaps inspiring him but in Chapter 2 we learn that he is a poor orphan boy, living with his Aunt, who scares rooks to earn money. Jude perceives his commonality with the birds. "A magic thread of fellow-feeling united his own life with theirs. Puny and sorry as those lives were, they much resembled his own" . There are many superstitions connected with rooks the most prominent of which is that rooks used to be told of a landowner's death. The new landowner would stand under a rookery and give the news, usually adding the promise that only he and his friends would be allowed to shoot the birds in future. If he neglected the ceremony, the birds would desert the rookery - an evil omen in itself. This forecast the loss of the land and downfall of the family through poverty. So for young Jude to be employed to scare rooks away is ominous.

His sensitivity is first shown in this chapter: "Poor little dears!" said Jude, aloud. "You SHALL have some dinner--you shall.... "I--I sir--only meant that--there was a good
crop in the ground--I saw 'em sow it--and the rooks could have a little bit for dinner--and you wouldn't miss it, sir--and Mr.Phillotson said I was to be kind to 'em--oh, oh, oh!" [as he was beaten by the farmer]. This may be a reference to Christ feeding the five thousand and a foreshadowing of his later move to Christminster, which was then a centre for religious learning.

His is later eloquently described as a 'boy who could not himself bear to hurt anything. He had never brought home a nest of young birds without lying awake in misery half the night after, and often reinstating them and the nest in their original place the next morning. He could scarcely bear to see trees cut down or lopped, from a fancy that it hurt them; and late pruning, when the sap was up and the tree bled profusely, had been a positive grief to him in his infancy. This weakness of character, as it may be called, suggested that he was the sort of man who was born to ache a good deal before the fall of the curtain upon his unnecessary life should signify that all was well with him again. He carefully picked his way on tiptoe among the earthworms, without killing a single one.'

This detailing of Jude's sensitive nature is one that I think we must heed because it is likely to have an affect upon his relationships with other people in later chapters.

After the incident with the rooks Chapter 2 ends with him asking his aunt about the 'beautiful city of Christminster', which later that night he saw from the hill which he climbed in Marygreen - perhaps an allusion to Christian's first stop on the Hill of Difficulty when he first saw the House Beautiful (Pilgrim's Progress). From hereon we know that Christminster, 'The heavenly Jerusalem', is going to assume an enormous importance in Jude's life - his bildungsroman has commenced.

MadgeUK wrote: "How lovely to wake up to Chris' wonderful introduction to the novel and to Hardy's poetry and to all these wonderful, thoughtful posts!

I was first of all struck by the way the first chapter sho..."

Good morning Madge. What a beautiful post. I wish I could write that well first thing in the morning. I echo your words concerning the quality of the posts here. I can't think of a nicer way to wake up. This should prove to be an interesting discussion if this is anything to go by, looking forward to travelling with you all

Though a part of me knows that I cannot or should not fault a young man for being taken in by a beautiful young woman, and have an attraction to her. There was something about the way in which he was so easily distracted from his grand ambitions of learning and advancing himself by Arabella that did sort of annoy me.

Jude strikes me as a very, very lonely individual, who has had no emotional guidance whatsoever and no experience with friends or lovers.

In criticising the 19 year old Jude, who in Chapter 2 is described as 'a ridiculously affectionate fellow', for being beguiled by Arabella, I think we have to remember that his hormones at this stage of his life would have been running riot and that Arabella is portrayed as an experienced seductress who deliberately gave an 'adroit little suck to the interior of each of her cheeks in succession, by which curious and original manoeuvre she brought as by magic upon its smooth and rotund surface a perfect dimple.' She later shows him a bantam's egg incubating in her bosom and entices him to her bedroom. Later, when Jude tries to leave the area, she lies to him that she is pregnant which, in Victorian times, meant that he must marry her.

'The two swore that at every other time of their lives they would asssuredly believe, feel and desire precisely as they had believed, felt and desired during the few preceding weeks' - an ironic statement, mocking the assumption that marriage can sustain the initial attraction felt between lovers. In Chapter 11 Jude feels that his life and Arabella's have been ruined by 'the fundamental error of their matrimonial union: that of having based a permanent contract on a temporary feeling which had no necessary connection with affinities that alone render a life-long companionship tolerable.' (We are perhaps reminded here of the problems Hardy had with his first marriage to Emma and of the difficulties in getting a divorce in Victorian times.)

Jude's ideals continually run into obstacles posed by physical circumstances and Hardy is perhaps showing us that ideal conceptions of reality often fall foul of material conditions, perhaps that the Ideal is (like Utopia) unattainable. The ideals of marriage also seem unattainable because Jude feels they have a 'fundamental error'.

Hardy seems to be indicating a trend in modern life where the practicalities of living make ideals increasingly difficult to live up to. Arabella Donn (a pun on Don?) is focussed squarely on physical reality, untroubled by ideas or principles. She represents the modern whereas Jude is rooted in the past, in the certainties of the church and Christianity represented by Christminster. Just as his life's aims are under attack from the Arabellas of this world, so was the church and Christianity under attack at this point in time (from Darwinism for instance, and from Tractarianism - see my Background post 3). Likewise, in chapter 2, Jude thought that '[t]he flaw in the terrestial scheme, by which what was good for God's birds was bad for God's gardener.'

Vikz wrote:This should prove to be an interesting discussion if this is anything to go by, looking forward to travelling with you all....."

Good morning and thanks Vikz. How nice to have someone from the UK alongside! Yes, I have a feeling that we are all going to go through a wonderful Bildungsroman here!

(I correct/edit a lot!)

This is my first time reading a book in a “group” (apart from at school way back when), so still trying to understand how things work. I’m not as far along in the book as most of you seem to be – having just started this morning during the 20 minute commute to work. Nevertheless, some of my first impressions, what they’re worth:

The new church:

Found this description of ongoing transformation quite interesting. As an eleven year old boy, Jude’s clearly about to embark on a physical and sexual transformation as well, and the latter is perhaps an important part of the book as I understand it. The new church is of Gothic style (with its greater emphasis on vertical structures and height – and hence possibly phallic allusions), and more importantly, “unfamiliar to English eyes.” Hardy devotes quite a few lines to describing how thoroughly the new wipes out the old – the old site is not even recorded on the green, its remnants are being utilised for very mundane tasks with no hint of their former purpose, the graves marked by temporary structures, and the new church is being built by a “obliterator of historic records.” One can’t be sure without having read more of the book, but Hardy perhaps hints at the immense (destructive?) power of Jude’s impending transformation. Having said that, he does speak of the “old” structure with a certain degree of reverence.

Jude

Sensitive has been mentioned before, but Jude is also shown to be reasonably intelligent. Just eleven years old, yet it’s he that finds a solution to the problem of the piano. He’s also a lover of books, and has the motivation to attend night school. It seems however, that this a little valued, if even despised characteristic in Marygreen. It’s one thing for Mrs Fawley to look down upon his book reading, but it’s curious that even the headmaster asks Jude not to tell anyone about his desire for obtaining a degree at Christminster.

Christminster

In addition to the attraction of the “city of lights” discussed above, I wonder if the city also represents a place of “learning” in Jude’s mind – being where his adored headmaster is going, and where one can go to university and “become a scholar” as Mrs Fawley says. It’s also interesting the reason she gives that Jude can’t go there – it’s just that people in Marygreen never have anything to do with people in Christminster. This is not really a reason at all, but it seems quite true – the villager he first asks about the way to Christminster also seems quite eager to point out that he’d never have any business with such a place. I wonder what the real cause of this repulsion is for the people at Marygreen.

The “natural boy”

This was the most interesting line of my reading so far. Jude’s sitting near the pig-sty, feeling that his existence is “undemanded” probably for the third time in the 2nd chapter alone. He has some rather philosophic thoughts while idly sitting here – about growing up, and one’s position in time and in the world in general. Yet an instant later, he forgets his despondency “like the natural boy.” Instead of sitting and thinking, he “springs” to action and does things. Given how his day had been so far, I didn’t find his despondency unnatural at all, but Hardy’s “natural” refers to the boys age rather than his circumstances. It is “natural” for a boy his age to prefer energy and action over academic thought. I wonder if this also hints at two sides of a conflict that Hardy may seek to create. Jade’s desire for Christminster, symbolising perhaps his attraction to books, academia, philosophical thought, in contrast to the desires of the “natural boy” inside him – the desire for a woman in Arabella.

All too early in the book to say what exactly Hardy wants to say and which themes he’d want to pick up on and emphasise, but it’s interesting nonetheless to think about all the potential themes that Hardy has opened up in his early chapters...

Rajat wrote: "This is my first time reading a book in a “group” (apart from at school way back when), so still trying to understand how things work. I’m not as far along in the book as most of you seem to be – h..."

Welcome to the discussion. I think that you will make a very useful contribution. I think that people's feelings, concerning Jude, were quite common for that time. It was not considered proper for people from Jude's background to; read, educate themselves or move away from what was considered to be their 'station'. These ideas remind me of books such a Cranford that really go into such themes. As for the antipathy between the town and country, that distrust between the town and country has a long history in the UK, and is documented in books such as Lark Rise to Candleford. And, perhaps find an echo in the hunting debate that dominated the 1990's. http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/in_depth/u...

I haven't had time to read all the posts and only have a few minutes before going to work. Just wanted to say I read the entire first section in one evening. Am absolutely loving it. Couldn't put it down. Looking forward to the discussion and the rest of the book.

I love the discussion surrounding the distant image of Christminster as that is one of my favorite passages from the book.

From Everyman:
"Seems to me it was more than an intellectual yearning; it was a more visceral, raw emotional power."

I agree, Everyman. I think the depiction of Christminster as a distant, hazy blur is both literal (as what Jude was actually beholding in that moment) and figurative.

Jude might have imagined what was taking place in Christminster, what life was like there, all the learning and intellectual pursuits that were going on - but these imaginings are abstract and not based in reality.

Jude's impressions and musings of the intellectual life of Christminster are just as hazy, distant, and skewed as his literal faraway and removed perspective of the town itself.

Rajat wrote: The new church: Found this description of ongoing transformation quite interesting. As an eleven year old boy, Jude’s clearly about to embark on a physical and sexual transformation as well, and the latter is perhaps an important part of the book as I understand it. The new church is of Gothic style (with its greater emphasis on vertical structures and height – and hence possibly phallic allusions), and more importantly, “unfamiliar to English eyes.”

Wonderful contribution Rajat and Welcome!!

Your reference to the church spire being a phallic symbol, coupled with it being unfamiliar to English eyes is an excellent one because foreigners were considered to be more sexual, and there was a fascination with the Oriental at this time, as well as with the gothic.

Your reference to 'the natural boy' and to the villagers not knowing about Christminster is perhaps meant to highlight the growing dichotomy between the rural and the industrial which was taking place in Victorian England, about which there was much ambivalence. Hardy himself admired the old rural ways but at the same time was fascinated with the technological changes which were taking place, like the railway.

Another of Hardy's fascinations was with clocks and there are likely to be references to time and the use of clocks in Jude. The alarm clock was first shown at the Great Exhibition of 1851 which Hardy was disappointed not to attend (though he attended the later International Exhibition several times). Queen Victoria was much amused by the 'alarm clock bed which awoke the sleeper by ringing bells after which an automated mattress tipped and flung the poor wretch into a bath of cold water - refreshed and restored for a brand new day!'!

Truly excellent opening comments and observations from all of you!

A couple of things that caught my eye on the re-read--

What did you all think of the epigraph to the novel?

"The letter killeth"

That is definitely one to file away for future reference.

Also the epigraph leading off "Part First", the quote from Esdras (the ancient Greek version of the Biblical book of Ezra), is interesting to consider in light of Jude's encounter with Arabella, isn't it?

I also wanted to mention that it is interesting to consider the topography, or geography, of the novel. This will become more apparent as we progress through the six parts. "Part First" is entitled, "At Marygreen". I don't recall, but Madge may have posted a link containing a map of Hardy's 'Wessex', I think it might be fun to kind of identify the location of these places and keep track of the comings and goings of our protagonists.

Toward the end of Chapter Two we find young Jude lying down in the leaves and grasses and peering up at the sky through his straw hat. He reflects on his growing perceptions about the horridness of "Nature's logic" and that maybe it would be better to not grow up and become a man. Jude seems to be almost anticipating that the road that lies ahead for him is not going to be one easily traveled.

Hardy wrote a poem that I believe captures the same feelings expressed by the young Jude--

Childhood Among the Ferns

I sat one sprinkling day upon the lea,
Where tall-stemmed ferns spread out luxuriantly,
And nothing but those tall ferns sheltered me.

The rain gained strength, and damped each lopping frond,
Ran down their stalks beside me and beyond,
And shaped slow-creeping rivulets as I conned,

With pride, my spray-proofed house. And though anon
Some drops pierced its green rafters, I sat on,
Making pretence I was not rained upon.

The sun then burst, and brought forth a sweet breath
From the limp ferns as they dried underneath:
I said: 'I could live on here thus till death;'

And queried in the green rays as I sate:
'Why should I have to grow to man's estate,
And this afar-noises World perambulate?'

This was originally published in Hardy's collection of poetry entitled, Winter Words in Various Moods and Metres, published posthumously in 1928 shortly after Hardy's death. Finally, Hardy's poem, Childhood Among the Ferns, was the subject of a musical piece, of the same title, by the composer, Gerald Finzi, his Opus 16, No. 1, in 1949.

It's been a bit crazy here. I've been loving the entire book, but then I've read at least 3 other Hardy novels and loved them too.

I think the difference between Jude and Copperfield is mostly a difference in the author's writing style. Hardy tends to focus on the story, in my opinion. His characters are strong and well drawn, but the plot seems more important to him.

Jude is completely alone. His one friend was the school teacher who is leaving him. Jude has a good strong mind, yet lives in a place where intelligence and learning is not valued. He is so sensitive that he can see the world from rook's point of view, yet is male and is supposed to be physically strong and not emotional. Now add in that he's told on a daily basis that he is not wanted and is more trouble than he is worth by his aunt. I don't think there can be anything that is more lonely or isolated.

It's amazing to me that he has the courage to dream of going to the place of light and education when his experience is so limited. His drive to learn is also incredible - figuring out a way to tie the book open so he can read while driving. Remember he has received little or no encouragement to learn.

Because of his age and his isolation, which would create an unworldliness about him, he is easily taken by an attractive young woman. She is trying to better herself by marriage and is willing to con her way into it. Their differences are readily apparent with the killing of the pig. I believe it says at one point, he wants to do it as is the custom from his area but also his sensitivity and ability to see something from a different point of view comes into play.

To me Jude represents empathy for others which keeps leaving him vulnerable to those who are willing to use that. I give him credit for continuing to try to live by his value system even though it is so different from those around him.

MadgeUK wrote: "In criticising the 19 year old Jude, who in Chapter 2 is described as 'a ridiculously affectionate fellow', for being beguiled by Arabella, I think we have to remember that his hormones at this stage of his life would have been running riot .."

The rational part of me understands that, but sometimes the way we instinctually or initially react to things does not always consult or agree with are logic and what we understand on a reasonable level.

My gut reaction was to be somewhat disappointed in Jude for being waylaid by such a one as Arabella, even though it is understandable and perfectly natural that he would be subject to such feelings, and desires, and that one so naive and innocent, who has lacked much affection in his life would allow himself to fall into the companionship and warmth which Arabella seems to offer him.

And as much as I disliked her for her manipulations particularly the way she trapped Jude into marrying him, it was interesting watching her little devices in the way in which she had went about her task. Particularly in the revelation that she altogether lied about the pregnancy, a trick which even her friends whom first gave her the idea to use pregnancy as a way to secure him in marriage had not thought of.

I think perhaps the problem I have with Jude is that he does divide myself in conflict with own sensibilities and my rational. So I do have these two opposing opinions of him. As in the incident with the pig. I ultimately agreed with Jude's sentiments about not wanting the animal to suffer, I do think the way in which pigs our slaughtered is inhumane and cruel. So there is the part of me that can sympathetic with Jude, and yet at the same time I cannot deny the practicality and necessity for doing what needs to be done, particularly since they were relying upon the money they would get to support and feed themselves. In this since Jude is perceived as being weak in his inability to do what needs to be done and having to have a woman step in and do the dirty work for him.

This episode also further highlights Jude's one heightened sensibilities and shows the way in which he is detached from the practical reality of the world. Jude is a dreamer, and does live more within his own head and his ideals, than he does within the reality of the world. And in seeing the way in which this often creates various mishaps for him in his life, it does make one question if in fact he will have the ability to actually survive and fend for himself within the real world.

Jude seems so far to be presented as a child out of touch with the world he is living in. He is unsocial, even anti-social, in a society which depends on interdependence for its survival. He values education and books to a degree that is almost alien to the hamlet he lives in. His emotionality makes him unsuitable to carry out even the basic (and essential if his society is to have adequate food to eat) task of protecting the food source from rooks. His emotionality and susceptibility lead him into a sexual adventure which intellectually he knows perfectly well is totally contrary to the moral strictures of his society.

Socially, intellectually, emotionally, he has few of the attributes which would make him an acceptable and productive member of the (admittedly somewhat limited and narrow) society in which he lives.

You know I've oft wondered what it was precisely that started Jude on his 'journey', and I think I might have found it.

Early in Chapter One, Jude is talking with Mr Phillotson, and Phillotson tells Jude the reasons he is leaving--

"'You wouldn't understand my reasons, Jude. You will perhaps, when you are older.'
'I think I should now, sir.'
'Well--don't speak of this everywhere. You know what a university is and a university degree? It is the necessary hall-mark of a man who wants to do anything in teaching. My scheme, or dream, is to be a university graduate, and then be ordained. By going to live at Christminster, or near it, I shall be at headquarters, so to speak, and if my scheme is practicable at all, I consider that being on the spot will afford me a better chance of carrying it out than I should have elsewhere.'"

I think this made quite the profound impression upon the little lad.

And Phillotson's last words to Jude as he leaves are--

"Be a good boy, remember; and be kind to animals and birds, and read all you can."

Though we do not really get to see anything of the relationship between Philotson and Jude, it does leave the impression that Philotson was quite the influence upon Jude, and left a very profound impression upon him. I can only presume that it was Philotson who had first insighted Jude's desire for learning and seeking greater education for himself, as it is so out of character with the town in which he leaves, and the nature of those around him. he does take the words of his former master so much to heart, as Jude's own father died when he was young, and his aunt does not much want him, his realtionship to Philotson must have been quite an important one at time when he was at such an impressionable age. And it seems the teacher is the only one who had taken any real interest in him.

Bill wrote:This is the cause of his suffering. Is his inability to find meaning in the world around him a fault in the world around him--or is it a fault in him? If it is a fault in the world around him -- are we then to assume that no one in this world is leading a meaningful life?..."

I think that Hardy does go a good deal to criticize the current state of the world and society and its standards during his time, and the way in which the limitations do often lead unnecessary suffering.

But I do not know if it would go so far as to say the world is without meaning. Certainly it is flawed and its flaws are explored but I do not think that it can be presumed that others live meaningless lives simply because they do find contentment, and meaning within the physical world.

Nor do I necessarily think that Jude's inability to find meaning within the world around him should be seen altogether as a flaw within him. There have been of course throughout history individuals who have felt compelled to look for something beyond just their own physical reality, and to question the meaning of their existence and seek the deeper and greater meanings of the world. To launch themselves into higher intellectual pursuits and become more detached from their immediate reality.

Jude's desire and hope in that far off light of Christminsiter and his memories of Philotson and the teachers parting words to him may be influenced by his inability to find love within the world, but than I do not think it can be altogether said that it is only because he is depraved that he does have higher ambitions for himself, and that he seeks to escape the restrictions and ignorance of his hometown.

Bill wrote: What I'm trying to account for is his, what seems to me, total alienation to the world he lives in. .."

I suppose it does not strike me as so peculiar becasue it seems to me that a lot of our great thinkers, brilliant minds, geniuses, creative personalities, philosophers, so and so forth, those who do in thier varrious different ways truly transcend above the current reality in which they inhabit or look beyond thier physical limitations are thus alienated in varrious difference ways from the world around them and do not often have or make very strong social connections or function very well within society.

I suppose it is a quite of cause and effect, is it the fact that Jude does feel so alienated from the world around him which intensifies his transcendence above the current reality. Or is Jude alienated becasue he is so set apart from others around him, becasue he was born with this "gift" to see beyond the world around him, to see beneath the surface, rendering him unreachable by those around him becasue he is so estranged from their ability to understand him. Is he truly being driven by his alienation, or is he subconsciously alienating himself becasue he is a rare personality who does live within a world of thier own.

Poor Jude--

I note that at the end of Chapter Seven, we see Jude, the 'Saint', meeting Arabella, this earthy woman who seems to be the exact opposite of Jude--dare I say, almost Pagan-like.

and "...it had been no vestal who chose that missile for opening her attack on him."

Christopher wrote: "Poor Jude--

I note that at the end of Chapter Seven, we see Jude, the 'Saint', meeting Arabella, this earthy woman who seems to be the exact opposite of Jude--dare I say, almost Pagan-like.and "....."

I do not know if I would call Arabella "pagan-like" persae, though she does not have the same rigid since of morality as Jude does, and she is more concerned with the physical realities of her world. If anything I think she is simply more practical than Jude is, and more mercenary. She takes the world she lives in for what it is, and does not question it but simply acts as she thinks necessary to make the best of what she has.

@ Silver--

Yeah, nor was I really explicitly stating that Jude is a 'saint'--I think my point was more that they are each the antithesis of the other. Is it simply a case of "opposites attract"? Or, is there more to this than meets the eye?

I think the other aspect I was 'seeing' here was that after Jude meets Arabella and sets up his first date, he walks off and all conscious thought of his studies 'fly out the window'--or, as Hardy says,

"[his] intentions...were suffering a curious collapse into a corner, he knew not how."

Almost like she is a temptress, and has been completely successful in pressing her charms; which, in fact, she has. And I completely agree with your general assessment of Arabella Donn too, Silver.

No, Bill, but I don't quite follow why you ask the question? In other words, I didn't think it implied, I thought it was explicitly stated that she did so.

Christopher wrote: "@ Silver--

Yeah, nor was I really explicitly stating that Jude is a 'saint'--I think my point was more that they are each the antithesis of the other. Is it simply a case of "opposites attract"? ..."

Though now that you mention Saint. Jude. I do think that the Saint of lost causes certainly is quite applicable to Jude.

Silver wrote: "Christopher wrote: "@ Silver--

Yeah, nor was I really explicitly stating that Jude is a 'saint'--I think my point was more that they are each the antithesis of the other. Is it simply a case of..."

Bingo! ;-) My thoughts exactly!

@ Bill--

Look at Arabella's last comment associated with the event (she is speaking with her friend, Anny)--

"'I don't know. I wish I had thrown something else than that!' regretfully murmured Arabella."

The specific part thrown was implicitly referenced several times. Your original question (posting no. 40) was whether it was implied that she had thrown it, correct? I believe that it was explicit that Arabella threw the pig-pizzle.

I would like to go back farther than the first chapter, to the title. I've only recently thought about how strange it was for a title. Historical, like Ethelred the Unready or Alexander the Great, or maybe biblical,like Herod the Great or John the Baptist. The title defines them.

Jude the Obscure

Rochelle wrote: "I would like to go back farther than the first chapter, to the title. I've only recently thought about how strange it was for a title. Historical, like Ethelred the Unready or Alexander the Great, ..."

Interesting, isn't it, Rochelle? Especially considering that it was originally entitled, The Simpletons and then Insurgent Hearts. And I think your last point is well taken and on-point, i.e., the title defining the character.

The Simpletons??????????? There aren't any in the book.

@Rochelle - I looked up obscure also to see the connections. And you are right, he is.

From a psychological stand point, the care we get as kids gives us the self-esteem and tools to be successful in our worlds. Jude didn't have that so he's never sure what normal is. Thereby easily swayed away from his goals and to the temptress.

There have been times in my life I have felt that isolated and books were my only consolation. Books and learning are the only thing in Jude's life that hasn't rejected him. Some people would break under the strain of this isolation. Jude is trying to grow but gets interrupted in his quest.

I think there's more to the Arabella relationship somewhere in the future. There's no way somebody like her would simply leave and let go of everything. She obviously has no emotional commitment to him (she sells his wedding gift to her) but since she clearly has no qualms on getting what she wants/needs through whatever means, I think she'll end up coming back to haunt him in some way.

Silver wrote: "I do not know if I would call Arabella "pagan-like" persae, though she does not have the same rigid since of morality as Jude does, and she is more concerned with the physical realities of her world. If anything I think she is simply more practical than Jude is, and more mercenary."

I agree with you there. She has a goal in mind, to get out of that house and get a husband, and she is single minded about it and unashamed of using any tools she can to accomplish it. Her sensuality/sexuality is her ticket out of squalor, probably not that many eligible husband possibilities pass by her door, and she's determined to make the most of her opportunity.

Bill wrote: "Christopher wrote: "What did you all think of the epigraph to the novel?
"The letter killeth"..."

I did not see this epigraph in my ebook version of the novel. For whoever may be unfamiliar-- tha..."

All I can say is keep the portion of the quotation that Hardy used in mind as you read the novel. We'll have to see if the second clause provides any insight, won't we?

Rochelle wrote: "The Simpletons??????????? There aren't any in the book."

Yeah, can you imagine? They're anything but simpletons.

@ Deborah--

I think you are spot-on with the observation about Jude's maladjustment as a result of his family situation. I can't imagine not having had parents during those formulative years, and then being fobbed off on a quasi-distant relative. Dickens does this too, and one's heart can't help but go out to these little orphans. I can sort of relate to Jude in some respects, especially as a child and a young man. I was a quiet, bookish fellow, and always accepted people at face value; sometimes to my detriment.

Oh yeah, and I think you're right about Arabella. One has to imagine that this is a pas de deux that will be interesting to watch. It is already painful, at least to me. I actually feel bad for both of them. Think about it, even Arabella has a tough road to hoe, and she only does what she can. Sure, so far, she's not a very likable character, and maybe she'll never improve--we'll see; but we can all certainly see ourselves at various times in the person that Arabella is. One has to imagine that is precisely what Hardy is striving for.

Bill wrote: "I think she has pretty much decided Jude isn't her type of man, so it seems the only reason she'd show up again is if she has some idea that Jude has bettered himself quite a bit..."

I agree that it seems unlikely that Arabella herself would ever suddenly decide to return back to Jude after this, unless her circumstances end up really turning out for the worse and she is driven to return in desperation.

But at the same time it seems unlikely that Hardy would completely write off this marriage to Arabella, so I perceive that in some way this marriage to her is going to have an effect upon him and his future.

Deborah wrote: "To me Jude represents empathy for others which keeps leaving him vulnerable to those who are willing to use that."

If truly empathy, I don't see how it leaves Jude vulnerable, because empathy also implies, at least in my understanding of the word, an ability to relate while retaining one's own integrity and distance. (And, I realize the usage, like so many words, can be wide.)

Bill wrote: "like one of the forms in Nebuchadnezzar's furnace."

What is this an allusion to? I presume a Biblical passage?

Well, try here, but still not sure I understand its use in Jude, except in the sense to survive under severe trial.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadrach...

Yep, Biblical. King N had three pious Jewish men as advisers (Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego). King N himself was a pagan, and he made a golden statue that everyone was required to worship or be thrown into the fiery furnace. Of course Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego refused and were promptly thrown into said furnace. The fire was so hot that the folks who tossed them in keeled over, but later that day four figures were seen walking amid the flames, untouched. The fourth was an angel, protecting them. King N was suitably impressed and released them with the decree that they could worship as they chose.

Daniel is one of the more fantastic books of the Bible and is considered to be a Jewish book of prophecy, as I recall... But that's as far as my memory takes me.