Terminalcoffee discussion

Ok, I'm going to put something out there, and I hope we can converse about this issue without defensiveness, etc.

Are we gay/lesbian friendly, or do we make too many gay-implied jokes/commentary?

As most of you know, I'm way anti-censorship, and I think easily offended people should simmer the fuck down. At the same time I could see someone reading the commentary about Kevin and me taking baths together (if you're new to TC, uh, search "Kevin bath RA" or something) and Lg's comment in the Borders thread about The Joy of Gay Sex (which I didn't see as a gay-bashing joke because the bookstore is in the middle of a gay neighborhood and I know LG) as thinking we're mocking gays/lesbians.

What do you think? How can we be relaxed and human and open and make sure gays/lesbians feel safe here without ruining the environment by making people feel they need to walk on eggshells? I'm not saying that "open and honest" and "gay/lesbian friendly" are opposing constructs, and I don't think any of us want us to be so tight, if you will, that this isn't fun. I'm not saying this well, so I'm putting it out there because if we don't speak honestly about things like this we're not who we say we are.

I’m kind of new here and admittedly I’m not easily offended (I’m not gay either so I could be way off the mark) but I haven’t come across anything that I thought was particularly offensive to any specific group. Except perhaps people that can’t spell, have problems with grammar, people that write in text speak, trolls, people that don’t like curse words, and plant lovers (frankly, that ficus seems a bit abused).

Honestly, after a day or two of reading posts on TC- it’s quite easy to see that the members here don’t mean any harm by their posts and are just expressing their brand of humour. Anyone easily offended would probably leave after a couple of days knowing that this just wasn’t the group for them. Personally, I don’t think you should change a thing- but that’s just me.

The thing I try to be careful of is using the term "partner" instead of "Husband" "Boyfriend," etc. when I do not know someone's orientation. I think this is a helpful step when asking questions of the group at large.

Personally, I don’t think you should change a thing- but that’s just me.

Thanks, Helena. I should make clear that I'm not looking for a set policy to run by moderators or anything. Fuck that shit. I'm throwing the issue out there so we can talk through it.

RandomAnthony wrote: "Personally, I don’t think you should change a thing- but that’s just me.

Thanks, Helena. I should make clear that I'm not looking for a set policy to run by moderators or anything. Fuck that sh..."

That’s one of the things that I think is nice about this group. You all communicate in an honest, real, way. I like that. I like honest.

I haven't seen anything I'd consider hurtful here.

The thing in the tub was not presented as, "hey, you guys are soooo gayyyy." It was simply the two of you enjoying a bubble bath. That's the way it should be, right? In other forums someone might have said, "looks like RA likes it in the butt" or some such stupidity. Here, people giggled and thought it was cute.

It seems to me that the overwhelming majority of active TC members are gay/lesbian friendly and supportive. There have even been a few threads where many members of TC have been openly outraged by the unfair treatment and lack of rights on behalf of the gay community.
In my experience TC members tend to embrace diversity of all kinds. I really love that about TC.

You all are an amazing group of people!

As one of the resident gays, I think we're gay friendly. I like the manly baths.

I was the one who snarked at LG's comment yesterday, but I wasn't personally hurt or offended. It did feel more gay-in-the-bad-way than TC usually goes, but I'm not a censor. I do call people on it, same as I can't stand seeing the word "retard" used pejoratively. So I saw a comment I perceived as "RA is gay" in the middle school sense, and I said "Oh good, gay jokes" and then moved on.
No harm, no foul.

I can honestly say I had not given it much thought, but when I came across any type of 'gay jokes', to quote Sarah Pi, I guess I took it to be more of the juvenile type of humor that is more in line with school yards then all out gay bashing. I may be oblivious, but I've not noticed anything overtly offensive.

Suefly wrote: "I can honestly say I had not given it much thought, but when I came across any type of 'gay jokes', to quote Sarah Pi, I guess I took it to be more of the juvenile type of humor that is more in lin..."

I've never seen bashing here. For real. And LG's comment wasn't particularly offensive, I was just feeling prickly, so I responded with sarcasm. Then I moved on.

I hear what you're saying, Buns...that first paragraph is how I see the scenario, too, but I wanted to check...I'm in class right now or I'd write more.

BunWat wrote: "Well and on good days I feel like the RA and Kevin in a tub, Kevin in a fruit hat, RA with candles jokes aren't about sexual preference. Its really more poking fun at the idea that men aren't allo..."


Yes. That.

BunWat wrote: "Danke. Hey hang on a sec, I'm a moderator I forgot!! I coulda changed it!!"

Are you inferring you're forgetful? =))

This is why I love you guys. You aren't afraid to discuss these issues openly and honestly. My take on 'the tub' has been exactly the same. Just RA and Kevin being comfortable getting in touch with their feminine side which has nothing to do with implying they are gay or not. You have already said it far better than I could say it.

The worst book cover thread has quite a few gay pictures. I have wondered if that could be taken as offensive to gays. I always regret opening that thread.

Do you really know LG RA? Her identity is really no super secret after all? Don't tell me lalalalalalalala I want LG to keep her secrets. Its one of the things I love about her.

Myles wrote: "As for the worst book cover thread, aesthetically it sure is offensive, but that's all, it says more about the need of the gay erotica/romance market for more money to hire decent artists than anything else..."

This. Gay fiction often has the worst book covers, and it's hard not to say, "wow...this is cheeeeesy." It has nothing to do with it being 2 men, 2 women, 1 man and 1 woman, etc. If I see a book cover featuring an octupus shifter and it features one man holding another with a title "Eight Arms to Hold You" I'm going to laugh at just how absurd it is and run over here to post it.

Sometimes things are funny because of something random, and not because what's funny has anything to do with the core subject matter.

I hate feeling like I might have said or posted something that might hurt or bother someone. It's never my intent.

I've never been offended by that thread. I mean, yes, my eyes are offended by the awful art, but I'm not offended at the subject matter or the way it's approached.

RandomAnthony wrote: "What do you think? How can we be relaxed and human and open and make sure gays/lesbians feel safe here without ruining the environment by making people feel they need to walk on eggshells?"

I'm fairly new to Tc and don't know many people well yet so what I'm going to say is not a judgement of anyone. I'm also very anti-censorship and my thought is if someone says something I don't like then I simply don't listen to them anymore. That's my responsibility and no one else's. As long as my right to say what I want to say is respected then that works for me. That's my disclaimer.

To answer your question above, and I don't mean to sound flip, you don't do it. If you have friends who are gay then you don't mock/tease about sexuality using negative stereotypes. Not because it's a censorship issue but because it's a respect issue and if they're your friend then you respect them. And the same for race, religion, body type, ethnicity, education, etc. But this is a very tight group and I know that among friends different levels of teasing are accepted and tolerated and also that there's often a very fine line between playful banter and potentially hurtful teasing that can only be defined by the people involved and their relationship.

Having said all that, in my time here, I haven't really read any messages that I would interpret as being intentionally cruel and I didn't read LG's original message as being mean or homophobic or anything like that. Sorry this was so long.

I love gays and lesbians, but I also want to feel free to make a joke every once in awhile. Hopefully not a mean or inconsiderate one. I hear jokes on TV sometimes that make me chuckle - isn't Liz Lemon on 30 Rock mocked often for being lesbian-seeming?

Or, here's another one. A friend of mine was dumped by her boyfriend and she posted a pic of him in a hat and plaid shirt, looking kind of unmanly. Another friend said, "That's a dude? I thought that was a middle-aged lesbian." So, is that offensive? (All these people are very leftwing, strongly pro-gay, if that matters.) Is that a gender joke, or a gay joke, or both?

I do get where Sarah Pi is coming from because sometimes I'll hear a female joke, or even a blond joke, and I'll think, "Oh, here we go again." They tend to be more stupid than offensive, the female jokes. But that doesn't make them okay, for me. There's also a difference between someone who makes one twice a year, and someone who makes one every week. Someone who makes one every week has female jokes, and therefore stupidity, imprinted on the brain.

Juvenile is a good word for it.

Like when RA and Kevin wax rhapsodic about some 19 year old swimsuit model, juvenile is the first thing that comes to mind. I'm not offended, but there is eyerolling.

Helena wrote: "..Except perhaps people that can’t spell, have problems with grammar, people that write in text speak, trolls, people that don’t like curse words..."

hey, i think she's talking about me

so let's see, i am juvenile, effeminate, uneducated, mildly attracted to RA, wildly attracted to sarah3.14 and love bette midler. i think i am a white trash, teenage lesbian

You are also smoove.

And a Chunglover.

Lobstergirl wrote: "looking kind of unmanly. Another friend said, "That's a dude? I thought that was a middle-aged lesbian." So, is that offensive?

Quick answer: yes, I'd say it's offensive because it's an unfavorable comparison and it makes certain negative assumptions about what a middle-aged lesbian looks like. But I wouldn't call someone out for saying it.

What's a 'chung' and is loving them legal?

What's a 'chung' and is loving them legal?

Connie Chung, and no.

Gail «Cyborg» wrote: "The reason I highlighted the worst book covers was not because I thought there was any intention to cause offense..."

None taken. If anyone is going to offend, it probably wouldn't be you, that's for sure. :)

A mod ended up putting the NSFW tag on the title because the covers were sort of out there. Then again, that's probably going to come with the territory when the title is "Worst Book Covers." The name does sort of imply an "enter at your own risk" type of vibe.

The pictures could be construed as offensive to the eyes, I suppose!

Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "so let's see, i am juvenile, effeminate, uneducated, mildly attracted to RA, wildly attracted to sarah3.14 and love bette midler. i think i am a white trash, teenage lesbian"

Are you teenage because you are juvenile or because of your attraction to RA?

::Van Halen's "Hot for Teacher" plays in the background as RA walks in slow motion towards Kevin who's wearing a Catholic school girl outfit and eating a lollipop::

Michael wrote: "Lobstergirl wrote: "looking kind of unmanly. Another friend said, "That's a dude? I thought that was a middle-aged lesbian." So, is that offensive?

Quick answer: yes, I'd say it's offensive because it's an unfavorable comparison and it makes certain negative assumptions about what a middle-aged lesbian looks like. But I wouldn't call someone out for saying it. "

It's not a negative assumption, it's a stereotype.*






*is this where I'm supposed to write, "I'm just sayin'."

I completely missed the whole "cover of the joys of gay sex" or whatever that was. I'm curious about the "worst book cover" thread now - I'll have to go find it!

But I've never seen anything that struck me as possibly gay/lesbian unfriendly. Sex, in general, is funny. Making fun of stereotypes is fun.

Michael wrote: "To answer your question above, and I don't mean to sound flip, you don't do it. If you have friends who are gay then you don't mock/tease about sexuality using negative stereotypes. Not because it's a censorship issue but because it's a respect issue and if they're your friend then you respect them. And the same for race, religion, body type, ethnicity, education, etc. But this is a very tight group and I know that among friends different levels of teasing are accepted and tolerated and also that there's often a very fine line between playful banter and potentially hurtful teasing that can only be defined by the people involved and their relationship. "

I really like this comment of Michael's.

Stacia *eyes up here* wrote: "Gail «Cyborg» wrote: "The reason I highlighted the worst book covers was not because I thought there was any intention to cause offense..."

None taken. If anyone is going to offend, it probably ..."

What the heck is "NSFW"? I'm sure I've asked this before now, and I still keep forgetting. I keep reading it as "STFU" or "NFTW" (not sure what the "N" stands for in that one).

not safe for work, Heidi.

Ohhh... well, I'll probably continue to read it as "STFU" or "NFTW" in about a month or two, but for now, it's crystal clear.

At least we are clear about something around here!

I have to agree with everyone. I’ve been a member for a short time, but in that time I haven't seen anything put out there being outright offensive with the intent to be mean.

*Hangs head for being a Bieber fan*

I can't accept you as a Bieber Fan, Lyzzibug, but I tolerate you and I'll pray for you.

oh, Sarah.

Oh, Carol?

Oh, Susannah!

She's that chick who is always crying. I've tried to cheer her up but my banjo skills could make anyone weep.

::sits on hands::

(Imagine I posted a google image of a girl eating a cookie off a tray without using her hands.)

Just let me know when I can use my hands again.

TWSS

Barb wrote: "I'm curious about what Sarah has to say ..."
I agree with Sherri that there is definitely a difference. I this that this is for the most part a place with an accepting, not a tolerating, atmosphere. At least when it comes to gay stuff. The exceptions have appeared during some pretty heated political discussions. Frankly, that's where I'd rather see them, in the context of an argument rather than an offhand hurtful remark*.

*not a reference to the remark which started the discussion.

i've got a question. i hang out often with my wife's aunt melody who is a lesbian. she and her gay friends do lots of gay jokes. are gay jokes by gays like black jokes by blacks? can you joke about your own group but not about others?

Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "i've got a question. i hang out often with my wife's aunt melody who is a lesbian. she and her gay friends do lots of gay jokes. are gay jokes by gays like black jokes by blacks? can you joke about..."

I kind of think so, but it depends on the group.

Sarah Pi wrote: "I can't accept you as a Bieber Fan, Lyzzibug, but I tolerate you and I'll pray for you."

I appreciate your prayers Sarah.

Sherri wrote: "Maybe there will be a miracle drug one day.

Still, I accept you. :)
..."

Thank You, Sherri.

Kevin "El Liso Grande" wrote: "i've got a question. i hang out often with my wife's aunt melody who is a lesbian. she and her gay friends do lots of gay jokes. are gay jokes by gays like black jokes by blacks? can you joke about..."

I think all groups tend to do this.

aunt mel lived with a girl who i sorta (sorta) messed around with in high school. she and i have a secret which is funny and i would always say "was it me?" with a frowny face. that cracks us both up

Sarah Pi wrote: "I can't accept you as a Bieber Fan, Lyzzibug, but I tolerate you and I'll pray for you."


Speaking of Bieber fans (I just accidentally spelled it "Biever" and had to correct it)... the guy who does the hilarious 27b/6 blog is coming out with a book.

helpmesellmorebooksthanjustinbieber