Creative Reviews discussion

Hi! I hope this is okay and that I am actually posting this new topic right...lol. But I have a topic that I have been thinking about and I know that there are quite a few authors in this group...so...
for the authors out there....
Did you publish our book yourself or have you gone with a traditional publisher?

Of course if it is perfectly ok for you to post a new topic!! I hope everyone will if they have something new they would like to talk about! Way to go Cambria!!


I am not a published author by any stretch of the imagination, but from everything I have heard, sself publishing is NOT the way to go. A major drawback is that you have to cover all the expenses yourself. A good publishing company pays for all of the expenses while you sit and bask in the glory that you created something wonderful. Another bonus to a publishing company is they help take care of the promotion of your book! Just my 2 cents from the Random notes of Amy!! :-)

Great comment Amy! Thanks for sharing! And this is definitely a question that anyone can weigh in on! Here's the thing:
The reason I ask is because I am a writer who has been searching for an agent and/or publisher for a long time. I am sure most of us know (and for those that do not) this can be very hard to do...especially if you are a new author.
So, here's the dilemma: should you let a really great book sit in a drawer b/c it is getting lost in the cracks or...should you maybe take a chance and self pub it and get it out there? And maybe make a name for yourself (Which i admit is very hard)?
It is true that publishing companies handle a lot of marketing for you....but I think to be successful a lot of marketing must be done by the author themselves. Personally, I plan to work just as hard at marketing either way I go. Naturally, it is expensive. But if you get published by a smaller traditional publisher (nothing wrong there I actually have my ms at one right now being considered) how much budget will they have for your marketing? won't some expense fall to the author anyway??
I'm torn on this topic....there are pros and cons to both sides...
looking forward to hearing everyones thoughts!

What type of book are you trying to get published? That will generally point you in the right direction as to what publishing companies to look into.

Prior to submitting to a publishing company, doing some research may be in order. Look up some of the authors from that publishing company and see if they would share ANY of their experiences with you. I think anyone who is publishing a book would want to help promote it at least a little....making a FB page for it and so on..

Great points Amy! I think research is almost always in order! You can't pitch a YA paranormal(which is what i write) to a publishing house that specializes in Historical romance or Non-fiction. I agree about FB and other marketing. So here's another question? LOL. As an author do you make a FB page and start doing really focused media on the book that isn't published yet or wait until you have a deal in the works..?

I would definitely wait until you have a deal in the works. You never know what may be in the contract for the publishing company that would pick you up, and you don't want to have one strike against you before you even get your foot in the door.

Let your work speak for itself. I'm sure it is fabulous, and some intelligent publisher will pick it up! Just keep trying, you will find the perfect match eventually!!

I have one book self published and one with a small company, it's been interesting to compare a little.

What were the good and bad points of each?

Ottilie wrote: "I have one book self published and one with a small company, it's been interesting to compare a little."

Hi Ottilie! Thanks for posting! So what's your opinion on this topic? You have a unique perspective because you have seen both sides. Which came first? Your self published book or the traditionally published book? Did the self pub maybe lead to the deal with the trad pub? Were they both good experiences and would you repeat both or maybe only one?

Amy wrote: "I would definitely wait until you have a deal in the works. You never know what may be in the contract for the publishing company that would pick you up, and you don't want to have one strike aga..."

My thoughts exactly!(I mean about waiting until there is a deal in the works) What a great discussion Amy. Great talking to you!

Thanks Cambria! I think its been fun also!!

Great topic. It might be of interest to point out the difference between self-publishing and self Epublishing. Before Epublishing, self publishing a book, a physical book, was a horrible idea. "Vanity" publishers were very expensive and often scams. Epublishing on smashwords.com or amazonkindle is free and its amazing for authors. More freedom, more revenue, more everything. Experts agree its going to make print books obsolete. In a few years, it may be hard to find a book store. I would suggest checking out J.A. Konrath's site. Too much information for this post.
To answer one of your posts about promoting a book that hasn't been published. I've been told that it can only HELP to create buzz about a completed work, published or not. Whet the appetite of fans. Also, although for now it's frowned upon by some publishers, many authors are epubbing and are later picked up by a traditional publisher, for example Amanda Hocking. For me, I'm done with looking for agents ect. Epubbing is the way.

Great Points Christopher! And you know this is the talk I am hearing too. A lot of talk is going round about this. Amanda Hocking is an excellent example. Although, I will say that what happened to her is not typical. BUT i think that it could be with well placed marketing and good books. I also agree that "vanity" publishing can be risky, it is very expensive. When i say self publishing I really mean the kind you are talking about. The free e-pubbing but also with createspace or lulu.com. You can put together a paperback and sel it online and they take like 20% of sales. I don't think thats too bad. The thing that holds me back most from going this route would be quality. Do you think that a self made paperback and/or e book will be of the same quality that a traditional pub can put out? I myself have a wonderful editor but what about the other details?? formatting and font and margins??? i don't know much about these things.
I will say one thing about what you said that bookstores will become obsolete in years to come. i don't think thats true. Years ago the music industry was turned upside down with IPODS and downloaded music but still the number one sales in music is still in CD's (I learned this courtesy of Nathan Bransford's Blog). I think this way for books. I think the nostalgia of walking through a book store and even the excitement of walking through one with so many possiblities will keep bookstores around. I own an e-reader and I love it but you know there's something to be said for holding a book in your hands.
For me personally, the best day ever is going to be when i hold my published book in my hands. (heck, i'll probabaly sleep with it too) lol. :)

Amy wrote: "Thanks Cambria! I think its been fun also!!"

:)

Who's to say for sure what the future will hold, but on your points, which are all good. I come from a publishing and music biz family and even though some of the big companies are selling CD's, file sharing has ruined the biz like an alien invasion. Living in Nashville, music city used to be full of publishers and record labels, indie and mainstream. Now its a ghost town like Katrina hit it. My family had to claim bankruptcy because of it. secondly, i live in San Diego and I used to be able to walk down the street to by a cd. no more. only a handful of places to buy cds.
But we are authors, so on your point of quality. I can hire a copy editor, a content editor, a proofreader, a guy that says he likes to read. Professional copy editors can ensure quality just as well as anyone. Cover artists are in abundance out there and for a few hundred I can get great coverart. I can also approve or disapprove of the quality before I publish it. If you sign with someone, they make these decisions for you, for better or worse. Will you spend more time doing this, yes, but you will spend time on the phone with an editor talking about changes, ect. You would be smart to higher a lawyer, which takes more time, and then conversations with your agent, who will take a cut of your work. Its arguable whether or not all of this makes the work "better." My grandmother published 24 romance novels and she could write a book and submit it to her editor with no mistakes, and she had argue with young inexperienced editors who would introduce mistakes. they once printed one of her books with two of the same pages. Mistakes abound more than you would believe. there's a thread on this topic in the on the kindle message boards where authors talk about all the mistakes editors have made to their books. And if its a print book, they're there forever. There are a lot of smart people in NYC, but you can't compete with a product that can always be edited at anytime during its publication. Lots of people like book stores, me included, but when you can buy a book for 2.99 or .99 cents, pretty soon the nostalgia wears off. Plus, 50 percent of books are returned to the publisher unsold and are destroyed. Ebooks are better for the environment, and if you wanted a hard copy, lulu will print you one. I think its going to go the way of Vinyl records, where there will be a place for enthusiasts.
Lots to say! Good times!

I love my e-books, don't get me wrong, but I don't think there is anything that can replace the feeling of holding a brand new book in your hands. I think the e-book craze may dominate or a while, but I think bookworms, like myself, will always need the physical book in their collection, where it can't be lost in the midst of all the other digitalized titles. They are better for the environment, I will say that, but why not simply limit the amount of books a store can buy at a time?

I agree a book is more intimate, but you can always buy a physical book through a POD. Vinyl is better than CD, (DAT was better than cassette and CD, but never caught on) but stores will limit books the day gas stations limit gas per customer. Never. Bookworms like us are the ones fueling the revolution. I can buy a book from home for half the price and read it instantly. People liked horses too, but cars won out. Just my 2cents. I have a library at home of over two thousand books. Had to donate a bunch because I couldn't fit them anywhere, but I still don't think print books can compete. We'll see. If its just a fad, it would be a shame because writers and readers are way better off. Be like killing the electric car or solar panels. Some people like the boom of a V8, but electric is faster, cheaper to maintain, and better for the environment.
Thanks for the convo amy, keep it coming.

This is a fascinating topic, and thanks for all the knowledgable input.

I don't have any knowledge to add, but as an aspiring writer, it's an issue I have my eye on. Personally, the idea of being my own publicist frightens me, and that's what puts me off the idea of self-publishing. It doesn't play to my skills at all -- I'm completely inept at selling anything, let alone a book, let a lone a book I wrote...

Maybe that means I'm better suited to publishing, while others are better suited to self-publishing. Maybe it means I will just have to learn those skills. I'm not sure.

Most writers have that predisposition. I do big time. There are places that will help you promote for a fee, but most of it is just being part of the community.

This has grown into a really intersting discussion guys! Christopher you make a lot of valid points and I agree with a lot that you say. I do think that e-books are here to say. Will they dominate the market?? I think that remains to be seen yet. As of right now an e-book only reaches about 20-30% of your audience. That's a lot of people left that you haven't reached. Will that percentage grow? Most likely. But when? It will take some time to build and personally if I am going to publish now, I want to reach all of my market now too. So, if I decide to self pub it I will be doing a paperback to be available on amazon to at least give myself a chance at reaching the rest of the market. Personally, I would also probably sell said paperback from my website too.
On the matter of quality, I totally agree. Editors and agents are people too and they make mistakes just as easily as you or I. A positive (for me) of self publishing is that the author does get more say in things. I already have the cover for my book designed in my head and I probably won't like it if a publisher tells me no. Has anyone here done a book with createspace or lulu? How hard is it? they make it look easy and I wonder how well the book comes out. Amanda Hocking did a few of her books in paperback but I haven't actually seen one. Same with e-pubbing. How hard is it at smashwords or B&N's Pubit! ? Is there a lot of formatting or do you simply upload?
Amy-limiting the number of books a bookstore can buy is a good thought and honestly i have no idea why they don't b/c a lot of them are returned. A lot of time the author is stuck paying for those returned too. And i agree-holding a book is sometimes better than an e-book :).

Ben wrote: "This is a fascinating topic, and thanks for all the knowledgable input.

I don't have any knowledge to add, but as an aspiring writer, it's an issue I have my eye on. Personally, the idea of being..."

You know, Ben I like your honesty! I think a lot of writers feel this way about afraid of being their own publicist. If you think about it some writers are naturally introverted thats what makes them such great writers, they express themselves better on the page. Thats how they interact with people or maybe even the world around them. So for someone like this getting out there and being personable and trying to sell a book is terrifying. I think in those cases traditional publishing would be better. Because you do get more guidance and help with marketing.
I think that learning the skills to self pub is an option but if your not really into then people will feel that. However, with social networking it might be easier for an introvert to market becasue they could do it behind a computer. Just by joining groups (like this one!) you can getr out and know people without having to be face to face. FB and twitter along with a website can all be done pretty much behind the scenes and can be very effective marketing tools. (at least i think so).
I think really it comes down to choice and where you are most comfortable.
Thanks for your comment! Really great.
So what genre do you write or aspire to write?

Christopher John wrote: "Who's to say for sure what the future will hold, but on your points, which are all good. I come from a publishing and music biz family and even though some of the big companies are selling CD's, fi..."

Buying an e-book for .99 to 2.99$ is a really efective marketing tool in itself i think especially for a new author b/c people are more willing to take a chance on a book that didn't cost much. And if it's part of a series then you've probably hooked another sale. I agree that this pricing can compete with nostalgia. :)
Christopher- did your grandmother self pub any of her work or go through trad. pub every time? What an accomplishment! 24 romance novels is fabulous!
Also, just wondering-what genre do you write and is your self-pub e-book available now?

that's a great response, thanks!

i'm not great with genres, but i think what i write is literary fiction, often with a seam of speculative fiction down the middle.

Wow! That sound very interesting....and intelligent. LOL. I am sure that it is very good reads.
I write a little lighter stuff i guess you could say...I write YA paranormal.

My book, The Traveler's Companion, is available on Smashwords, Amazon, and soon Sony, and Barnes and Noble Nook. The genre is science fiction. I had it professionally copy edited, formatted, and converted by Strangelandediting.com. They are great at doing all that for you for a reasonable fee. Besides the editing, I could have uploaded it myself. It's fairly simply, but Strangeland did it all for me so it would pass Smashwords' Premium Catalog requirements on the first try. If a book is formatted correctly, you get put in their premium catalog which allows them to be offered to more stores. Most authors don't make it the first time around. Mine went through on the first try.
I made the cover art myself.(what do you think?)
www.smashwords.com/books/view/49373.
Or
http://www.amazon.com/The-Travelers-C...

My Grandmother, Elizabeth Chater, wrote and published 24 traditional novels and tons of short stories. She died in 2002 so she never saw a kindle, but her former agent now sells her books online. I'm not sure what she would have thought of the ebook revolution. Probably not much. She loved science fiction, but I once tried to show her how to use a computer--she just wasn't having it.

What a great tip! I didn't know that you could hire a company to copy edit and format it and convert it for you. what a huge load off your mind it would be! Thank you for the tip! I had visions of myself trying to figure out software and formatting and ending up with less than professional quality.
I checked you book out via your link and it looks great! I like your cover art. The use of color and image placement is really nice and I can tell you put a lot of thought into it.
I will definitely be looking up your Grandmother's published novels as well. My grandmother is the same way with computers-completely uninterested. In fact, I am still trying to learn my way around them. There is so much to know.
For your cover art which software did you use to create it?

gimp2, which is free

cool. thanks. Is it easy to use?

it took me a few days. its not super easy, but there are lots of tutorials on the web. i just hit buttons until it worked. i'm happy to help when you get there.

thank you. I may take you up on that. However, I have a cousin who acutally does design work and I may ask him to do one for me. Might be easier....yet the challenge of doing it myself is tempting...:)

go with cousin. its a lot of work. you can tell him what you want. But I agree, I have made three now and its a lot of fun. just takes a while.

LOL. Well your hard work paid off.

Just found this in Dave Farland's newsletter: "In the month of February, e-book sales grew nearly 170 percent above the sales in January. For the first time, e-book sales out-paced mass-market paperback sales, so that they now make up the majority of all sales categories. In other words, e-books sell more than paperbacks, and they also sell more than hardbacks." David Farland’s Weekly Kick in the Pants

Christopher John wrote: "Just found this in Dave Farland's newsletter: "In the month of February, e-book sales grew nearly 170 percent above the sales in January. For the first time, e-book sales out-paced mass-market pape..."

Awesome news! Thanks for the update!

I joined for my reader site, but I am a recently self published author (one full-length novel that is the start of a series, and two novellas). I don't know that my experience has been typical - my full-length book has taken off very quickly - but in my opinion, the long-term earning potential for a good book is a lot better as an indie author. My book is at $3.99, and I get 70% of that from amazon. As a traditionally published author, you seem to get 8-12%, which means they need to sell a LOT more copies of your book for you to get the same level of income. For a "mid-list" book, I think you can do better yourself.

Also, I'd put out your book to ebook first. There is a bit of a learning curve on formatting, but there are also some very good guides out there on doing it yourself, and some people who do the work well and very inexpensively. I did my own covers and formatting (I'm a bit of a geek), but I paid for professional editing and proofreading. I think you can put out a really high quality book as an indie, but you can also put out garbage, and it's up to the author to push for the former :).

I didn't do a print version, because I would have to charge almost $10 just to break even, and that seemed expensive. Most indie authors find 95% of their sales come from the ebooks.

The American Association of Publishers released numbers for February that say ebook sales are 30% of total fiction sales now. By the time a traditional publisher got your book to print, that will probably be 50%.

Good luck with whatever you choose, and sorry to write an essay on my first post here :).

Hi Debora! Thanks for the great insight! I too have read that e-book sales are about 30% of the market and recently e-book sales have surpassed print books so I am sure that the e-book market will grow to 50% in no time!
It does seem that putting out the book yourself you are able to get more of the sales b/c traditionally published books are so much more costly to put out. i never really thought about it in terms of having to sell more as trad. published to make the same that you would as a "mid-list" self pub. It really bears a lot of thought!
Thank you so much for posting! I hope we talk again soon!

Don't apologize for the long post Debora, we love it, especially when you have such wonderful insight to share!!

Great post, Debora.

The 70% vs. 8-12% doesn't include the amount of time put into the book and the selling of the book that publishers do, and that must have some equivalent monetary value, though. You must have to work pretty hard to offset that.

It amazes me how much of a market there seems to be for indie publishing. Outside of the internet, nobody I have ever spoken to has bought a book that wasn't traditionally published, unless it was written by a friend. (And because most of the internet is American, it makes me think it's a US thing, but that's probably not right.)

Some indie authors work very hard to market, some do a lot less. I did a big giveaway that really kickstarted things for me. Also, many mid-list traditionally published authors have to put a lot of time into marketing now, or their book doesn't sell. One trad pubbed friend got a list of "suggested marketing activities" from her publisher. Ha. Looks just like my list.

As far as the "market" for indie publishing - my book is on amazon, in a fantasy subcategory. People browse the category and buy my book. I don't think most readers know how a book was published. Some indie books make themselves obvious with a poor cover or bad editing, but I'd be willing to guess 80% of my readers have no idea I don't have a publisher. I don't know where you are, but I have a lot of international readers, too :).

This is a great group and a very interesting thread. Self-publishing is definitely changing its image these days. Many more people are going for it because the publishers are becoming so much more demanding in what they publish. And there are some successful authors self-publishing - take a look at Amanda HockingAmanda Hocking. And now she's been taken on by a large publisher (let's see if she's just as successful).
I'm traditionally published (Awe-Struck Publishing) and it's working fine, but like so many other authors I'm working my butt off trying to market. And, believe me, I'm no marketer!

Hi Susan! thanks for your insight! this is an interesting topic for me and I love to hear what other people think. So in traditional publishing...how long did it take for your book to come out and how much creative input did you have for things like cover design? Did your publisher give you a certain budget for marketing materials or was that all up to you?
I too am interested to see how traditional publishing works out for Amanda Hocking. I have been following her story for a while now so it will be intersting to see what happens!

I published through a small press, but I know people who have self-published and who have published through mainstream presses.

The problem with the large, New York press system is that it is a difficult institution to get into. Often times a book is judged on its sales in the first couple months, and they don't put all that much marketing into new authors. Of course, YA Paranormal is big right now, so that might be a different matter. If you can do well there, it's a good place to be. My friend who is going through the NY presses has been on this neverending book tour for about a year now. Since it's primarily East Coast, I'm assuming a lot of it's on her own dime. The general trend in publishing has been for the larger presses to publish fewer books and invest less in new and midlist writers.

Self-publishing is all your own thing. For this, eBooks are definitely better than printed books. If your book is of any length, you can price yourself out of the market on printing costs. However, I've seen people do this successfully and get offers from larger presses when the books are successful. However, I would emphasize the importance of having a good editor--not just a proofreader--whom you will have to find yourself. Here you are completely on your own for marketing, and I would suggest not so much marketing your book before it's published so much as getting very familiar with your audience so you don't make mistakes once you do start marketing.

Things vary with a small press. I went with Eraserhead Press. Marketing mostly my responsibility, but I have access to authors who have been successful in this genre, one of whom spent a lot of time editing my book with me. If you are working with a single-genre small press, having access to that community can be important. The press also has existing arrangements with printers and distributors. These are useful things.

Since you are specifically in the YA market, I wonder how important the school connection is. I think it will be very difficult to get a self-published book into school libraries, book fairs, and the like, but I haven't researched YA.

Thank you for your comment Eric! It is incredibly hard to get picked up by the major presses these days and it can be discouraging. YA paranormal is hot right now and I have heard that the agents and pubs are overflowing with it which makes it even harder. You raise interesting points about schools and libraries...I have thought about scholastic and have wondered how a self pub author would get into that certain market. I havent done much research on that yet.
I think about marketing a lot and I think that a lot of it falls to the author no matter what especially if you are new. I also agree that having that network of other authors like you do can be important in an authors success.

Self publishing print books can get costly but I wonder if doing one on a site like createspoace would be as exspensive and if maybe going that route along with an e book would be a smart route to go.
Personally this is what I am considering. I have my ms out at a small trad pub and I am waiting (sigh) to hear back. If it is a no then I am pretty sure I will move ahead with the self pub.
Are you glad that you went with a small trad pub? How has the success been with your book? Do you think anything would have been better or worse if u had went the self pub route?
Thank you for your insight!

I don't think my book would have done very well if I had self-published it. First, having an editor (an editor, not a proofreader) makes a huge difference. Working with Eraserhead got me Kevin Donihe, who was an author I already admired. I keep coming back to editing because it makes a difference in your final product. A copyeditor will fix your commas, but an editor will tell you to cut entire chapters or substantively change the book to make it better. Also, people who read Bizarro know my publisher, so that helps.

I think you are correct that whatever route you go you are pretty much alone for marketing.

I have my doubts about self-publishing through a service. Robin Sullivan, whose husband wrote the Crown Conspiracy series, gives free seminars in DC about how you can do everything the services do cheaper and better yourself.

Just to point out, there are substantive editors you can hire on your own.

Agreed. I guess I'm harping on it because I recently read a self-published book that could have been a good book if it had been edited. The story was good, but the author used too many words and some chapters were unnecessary. As a result, the book was too long and cost too much to print, so the paperback costs as much as a mainstream hardcover. It's bad to be an unknown writer trying to sell a $22 paperback.

But definitely, if you can find an editor you know, trust, and admire, you can put out a good book. It helps if you know authors working in the same genre.

I agree with Eric. Far too many self-published books need an editor (and a good story editor, not just a copy editor). However, Christopher John is correct - you can hire really excellent editors, and at reasonable prices. I have three - a story editor, a copy editor, and a proofreader (plus a couple of other free sets of eyes that help with a final proofreading pass, looking for any leftover errors - there are always some).

There are lots of reasons to consider traditional publishing, but I don't think editing is one of them. First, many publishing houses are making severe cuts in their editing staff, and a lot of new authors only get a copy edit (and not always a very good one). Second, you can hire the same people many of the small presses use for editing.

What are the pluses of a traditional publisher, Debora?

I too have read some self published books that would have been better with editing. However I do think there are a lot of good editors that can be hired. I think I hired a pretty great editor on my own and she actually is employed with a small trad pub (and many other places too) so it is true that there are great people out there available to us all.
I think traditional publishing has a few pluses too in the way of guidance and product placement. And also they have more experience in getting the book ready and out. A lot of self pub authors just aren't that familar w that side of the business. Plus I have heard many self pub authors say that doing themselves all the things that a publisher would do for them takes away their writing time.
I really think that it depends on the individual whether or not self pub is a good idea. Good quality can come from self pub but it takes a lot of effort and know how. I think that is what holds me back most from just going ahead w self pubbing...fear that the finished product won't be as good as it could be and that I don't know enough to do it.

This thread is filled with some great insight. It's been very helpful. I will admit that I'm in the category of a self-published author whose book is in need of copy editing, story editing, and proofreading as Debora mentioned. I decided to go the self publish route with an unedited manuscript because honestly I didn't know if anyone would get past the first sentence before deciding that watching grass grow was a more interesting activity.
The feedback and reviews have been great but ,as some reviews noted, the product wasn't as good as it could have been with some quality editing. So now I've started the proces of searching for a good editor (at a reasonable price would be a huge bonus). Problem is I have no idea how to find a "good" one. My guess is it's a different process than just googling "editor" or "copy-editor". If anyone has any suggestions (other than punt, although that could be sound advice), it would be much appreciated.