Study Buddies discussion

A Mary Sue is an idealized female role usually consisting of very great powers, a good physical appearance, and an altruistic personality. Mary Sues generally lack true flaws.

Wiki's description of Mary Sue

This sounds like a *spoilery* topic to me! There, I said it.

I think there are places where I can see where "Suehunters" may say Yelena has it too easy. She has special, Soulfinder abilities, she is conveniently saved from the noose by her handsome, mysterious boss/roommate/future lover, Valek. She always seems to do the right thing.

Except, she doesn't! In Fire Study, her mistakes cost the lives of two innocents, whom she could have saved by cooperating with Valek instead of pushing him away. Quite a few other people are hurt, killed, or are permanently incapacitated (Gelsi, Chestnut, Tauno, Ferde--yes he's a bad guy but was she right to raze his mind? A topic for another discussion--Rand, Tula, to name just a few!) because of Yelena, whether triggered by her negligence, accident, cockiness, misfortune, or otherwise. Sure she has magic abilities, but she pays a price for using them.

I think if she could perfectly weather every storm without consequence I'd think her more of a Mary Sue. But she gets pretty beat up, and is denied comfort, luxury, and an easy life with Valek! Well, until the very end of course, and even then I don't believe they'll have it easy.

(side note on the Wiki, I think it's hilarious that the "best-known" Mary Sue is Wesley Crusher from ST:TNG. lolz. I *heart* Wil Wheaton.)

I really don't think Yelena is a Mary Sue. She has to work too hard for everything. It never comes too easy. She can fight, but she's not the best. She isn't always beautiful and she doesn't always get what she wants. Yelena is captured, tricked, and emprisoned. I just don't think there is enough wish fulfillment for Yelena to be a Mary Sue.

My favorite Mary Sue is Bella from Twilight - Bella gets a beautiful vampire husband who loves her unconditionally. Bella gets to keep Jacob as a part of her family. Bella gets to be a mother and a beautiful vampire. Bella gets a fantastic super power and controls it with little effort. Bella's shield power is the sole reason for peace in the vampire community. Bella doesn't have to suffer through being a "newborn." Bella is accepted by everyone without contestation. Oddly enough I still love The Twilight Saga.

E., re: Bella: I know, that's how I felt, too! I couldn't bring myself to grade Breaking Dawn down so much because the ending really happened the way I predicted. I did wish for more of a kick-ass vampire vs. vampire battle scene. It's ok, I just went and reread Magic Study again after that :)

Also I think a real Mary Sue would have magically avoided wading through bat guano, getting bloody/sweaty/otherwise gross, and getting all the hair singed off their face and head. Not Yelena. If they ever make a movie of Fire Study, they better stick to the novel and make sure the actors playing Yelena and Valek end up burned, bruised, and bald by the end credits! or I will kick up a stink!! ;)

Someone was telling me in Eldest, all of Eragon's scars get magically healed. He's also quite a bit of a Mary Sue in the first book (that's only how far I've read, so that's all I can say), although I wouldn't say he was one completely. Is there some sort of rating scale out there? Maybe on a scale of 1 to Wesley Crusher, I think Eragon would be a 7 at least.

I agree about Bella. One of the things mentioned in the description of a Mary Sue was that the characteristics were "too good" that it was annoying. I'd have to say that that's how I felt after reading Breaking Dawn... Although, since I liked the rest of the series, I couldn't grade it down either.

Yes, Eragon's scars do get magically healed, and he is pretty close to a Mary Sue now that you've mentioned it. But the girl doesn't like him, which is the only thing I've seen so far that negates that title. And his personality is a little annoying at times.

But no, I don't think Yelena is a Mary Sue. Sometimes she comes close, but there's too many restrictions placed on her power that I just can't feel that she is. Plus, Yelena is not annoying.

One of the things I always liked about Yelena was the fact that, although she was strong, she wasn't necessarily a kick-butt heroine, but more of a survivor type. She's more resourceful than all powerful, in my book. Plus she can have a bit of an attitude, she makes mistakes, and she gets dirty. And I also think that a Mary Sue type would arrange to spend more actual time with her beloved.

I don't think that Yelena is a Mary Sue. She actually worked very hard to learn fighting skills, and then she worked hard to control her magical gifts. I think that is pretty important.

I think that superficially she definately sounds like a Mary Sue. Especially if you don't go into the long explanations of how 'yes she can do that awesome power, but can't do a simple spell most elementary school kids can do' or that it was less her being handed all the Mary Sue traits and more her trial by fire and tragic circumstances that brought them about.

Ginny Weasley is another good example of Mary Sue. A fairly ordinary background character who suddenly becomes a female version of the hero? And his love interest? Bah.

Bella screamed Mary Sue from the coverflap blurb! And worse she made bad decisions that everyone forgave her for. She treated some characters horribly ::cough Jacob cough:: and they still were like 'Aw Bella gee its okay'.

Yelena is at least called on her impulsive and ultimately realy bad decisions by everyone most times.

Lexie - I think you've hurt my feelings calling Ginny Weasley a Mary Sue. **sniff**sob**sniff** Just because an ordinary person becomes a hero doesn't make them a Mary Sue. Isn't most fiction about ordinary people doing extrodiary things?

The only thing about Mary Sues that truly irritates me is when everything comes too easy. If a character becomes hero through trial & tribulation (& in Yelena's case torture & capture) it's ok by me. Mary Sue be damned.

Aw E. I didn't mean to hurt your feelings :(

but Ginny really does scream 'Mary Sue' to me. She's almost worst then a character who gets everything right away--she was just this...person in the story who sometimes helped it along, but showed no real aptitude for much. Then suddenly she's the Star Quidditch player, she's spunky, she's gaining male appreciation attention and the hero suddenly says 'You know she's a right-on gal!' and at no point do any of her flaws make people stand back and say 'hold on here'. There was no lead-in I'm saying, nothing earlier in the books to have us think back then that she might be something more. Couldn't she have fallen flat on her face during practice? Or had a guy reject her flat out? Or a bad hair day at least?

I *heart* Ginny Weasley!

I think of it as: look at all the genetic mish-mash her parents had to get through to finally get the perfect little girl. I mean, you must know I love every Weasley boy there is, even Percy for all his faults and pretensions, and especially Fred & George (^_^). But Ginny is the perfect fruition of the Weasley DNA--the Weasley who can't be made fun of by snooty student wizards because she's too good and likeable and not funny-looking, and because she could duel you straight into the bog any day.

Anyway, I think a fair amount of suffering for not being noticed by the guy you get "zing! Cupid's arrow right on target" feelings for when you're like, eight--for *years*--is pretty painful and tips the scales away from Mary-Sue territory. I had some of that in high school and I'm sure Juli Baker from Van Draanen's Flipped would agree it's pretty sucky :(

Lexie - Ok... Gah... my feeling really aren't hurt, but I bet Ginny's would be if she heard you call her a Mary Sue. ***Really, I'm just kidding about the hurt feelings stuff. No hurt feelings. Honest.***

Alethea - Good point (is it just me or am I saying that a lot lately?)! Ginny was systematically ignored by crush for 7 books! That wouldn't happen to a Mary Sue. Mary Sue would get her man stat! No questions asked.

See she had all those predicaments BEFORE becoming uber cool girl. Now if she was posessed by Voldie after she was the feisty, snarky awesome Quidditch player, I might feel differently. It felt like poorly planned character building and as a result left me with a sour taste. All those cool attributes sprung up over night (sort of like that girl in your 9th grade class that went from being an A cup to a C cup over the summer break).

This is so funny. We probably need another post to debate whether or not Ginny Weasley is a Mary Sue. :o)

Here's Maria's response to Mary Sue: MVS on Mary Sue

As for Ginny, I agree with Lexie and Tracy--I kind of see the Mary Sue, but I still like her. If she had been more prominent in driving the plot, that would've been the deciding point for me. But since she's more of a minor character, it doesn't bother me so much.

Isn't every romance novel heroine automatically a Mary Sue? I swear, people gotta stop sue-hunting and just read for fun again. I mean, I can argue that Paul Atreides from Dune is a Marty Sue. But I still loved and enjoyed the book, and Paul rocks the sands... So what does that get me?

I stick to my original claim that a Mary Sue is annoyingly *Special* -- So far, only Bella has really captured that role completely. Next up, Eragon.

Alethea, I agree with you. I haven't read a lot of romances, but most fantasy novels have a protagonist that embodies most of the Mary Sue characteristics. I think I've read one in the last month that did the opposite and noticeably sidestepped that role, and that was Fairest.

unfortunately its true, most romance heroines do fit the Mary Sue category, but I take a lot of 'true' romance novels with a grain of salt (how can you take a book called The Greek Tycoon's Virgin Mistress seriously?) and dont' tend to get too worked up over them. Bella is the ultimate Mary Sue and shall never be known as anything different unless Kristin Stewart and Robert Pattison turn the Twilight movie into a Manic Depressive's suicide trip like they seem to want to.

I'm not as worried about Mary/Marty Sue's in one-off books (which seem to be decreasing lately...), but moreso in series books. I had other issues with the HP books to begin with, so Ginny's characterization just was icing on the cake for me. My favorite heroine of all time, Buffy, is a Mary Sue (intentionally so). Even after more Slayers show up she is still the 'SPECIAL' Slayer to end all Slayers.

I forgot all about Buffy! Although I have to beg to differ--she goes through a lot of torment and Hell (Hells?) and doesn't always come out unscathed. She comes back from the dead quite wrong in the head and heart. I think she's got quite a lot of flaws (for one, she's not a great academic! which is a big minus in my book, but works out for her being Buffy) even from the beginning and she feels a lot of them especially after her mother dies in Season 5.

I don't think she's a Mary Sue at all.

Buffy - Mary Sue? No way! She DIES. It's lucky for Yelena that Buffy wasn't originally a book or she might get my vote for being the most Kick Ass.

Ah see I think she is because she is meant as the wish fulfillment for the audience. And seriously I have an entire essay on this somewhere on my old computer that I wish I could remember. We dissected her character growth in an anthropology class I took. I don't mean it badly, in this case I think Buffy being a Mary Sue is a good thing. Joss Whedon consciously made her the way she is because he wanted women to identify with her and men to not be intimidated by her, to recognize that a strong woman isn't necessarily a bad thing.

Her resurrection wasn't of her own violition and forced her character down a path that wasn't her own doing. And in that season we also see the destabilization of her support network--Willow's addiction, Dawn's kleptomania, Giles leaving, Xander and Anya's relationship ending, and of course the rough!sex with Spike to 'feel alive'. The other seasons the Scooby Gang always bounced back from whatever threatened them or hurt them, Season 6 left gaping holes of emotional and physical torment that none of them wanted to recognize because once they did they'd have to share the blame in allowing each other to fall apart.

And really I didn't mean for this to turn into such a long post >.>;; I'm currently working on an Informative Speech about Buffy's role in Popular Culture.

Maybe I just like Mary Sues. Don't forget about Peter Petrelli. I'm sure we could go on and on about our fave M. Sues.

As for Maria's comments: "While I don’t think my main protagonist is perfect and “the chosen one,” I will admit to enjoying the “wish fulfillment” aspect." I guess wish fulfillment is high on the list of reasons for Mary Sues.

oh Peter Petrelli he is fast becoming the big Marty Sue huh? ::shakes head:: so cute, so oblivious.

Well there's no doubt that Yelena isn't perfect or a chosen one, but she definately has many traits we all admire and wished we had aside from Valek of course.

I say we vote on this! I've put together two polls - one on Yelena & another on Ginny Weasley (I couldn't resist).

Please read this thread before forming your opinion.

I voted! I feel like i'll be in the minority for Ginny though XD

I don't really think that Yelena is a Mary-Sue. She isn't perfect, nor is her life, and the good things that she has, she really has to work hard for them.

Bella = I'm not even going to comment, I hate Bella Swan.

As for Ginny, I don't really think she is either. She was always in the background, up until Harry started spending more time with her, what with the DA and the Order/Hedquarters. You don't see her be amazing at Magic, because she isn't in any of Harry's classes. Also, I think that all of the Weasleys have been popular, being good at Qudditch seems to run in their family - Fred and George, Charly, Ron (ok, not Percy, but he was... different and I can't remember Bill's qudditch history...) And, Ginny only had like, 2 boyfriends, and the one she really wanted (Harry) wasn't interested up until her 5th year at Hogwarts - her 6th year of liking him.

I've heard people call Hermione a Mary-Sue aswell, thats another thing I don't agree with... But I will pipe it, because this is meant to be about Yelena!

Shley wrote: "I've heard people call Hermione a Mary-Sue aswell, thats another thing I don't agree with... But I will pipe it, because this is meant to be about Yelena!"

By all means, hold forth!

Some people think that other characters trust Yelena too quickly--are too quick to be her friend or on her side. Plus except for not being able to light fires, she's a telepath, she can manipulate souls, heal people, walk into their dream-thoughts, and she seems to make all the right decisions (she *doesn't*, I think, but ppl who think she's a MarySue think so!) And yes, I think she has to work pretty hard for the good things. I didn't even get an inkling that Valek liked her "that way" until 3/4 through the book...