More than Just a Rating discussion

Have you created any sort of checklist or guide that you refer to when you write a review? Many of us prefer write free-form - but others like a tool. If you have a list you can paste here, please share.

I am presently going through the Gutenberg Project short science fiction stories at Librivox.com, where they have been turned into audio books. There are over 400 of them and I am going through about 15 a week.

Someone from Apple has exported the Gutenberg Projects text file to Kindle format and now they are listed on Goodreads.

Most of them have never been reviewed on Goodreads so I created a template to help me review them. I give a short blurb about the book, where it came from and some details.

Below is the blank template I use and below that is a filled in one.

-----------------------------------------------
Audio Book MP3 downloaded from
http://librivox.org/short-science-fic...-
Public Domain stories from Project Gutenberg, that are read by volunteers.
I listen to these short stories while walking to and from work.

Play Duration:
Read By:
-------------------------------------------

The Radiant Shell by Paul Ernst

Plans stolen and a man offers to retrieve them while invisible.

Audio Book MP3 downloaded from
http://librivox.org/short-science-fic...
Public Domain stories from Project Gutenberg, that are read by volunteers.
I listen to these short stories while walking to and from work.

Play Duration: 00:52:03
Read By: Bellona Times

An outline might be helpful to some folks, too.

I also have been thinking about creating a simple checklist of elements to consider. For example, sometimes I get carried away talking about the funny illustrations in a picture-book I forget to talk about the story, much less my thoughts about the receptiveness of the intended audience.

I would be extremely grateful for any assistance from anyone who has an outline, template, checklist, format, guidelines, organization, etc to doing your reviews.

I have mentioned it before that I suffered a brain injury years ago and one of the things I lost but regained through cognitive therapy was my reading comprehension. I started doing reviews to help strengthen this but writing them is a frustrating process for me. I take notes but there is no semblance of order so sometimes that can make things worse.

As I mentioned to Cheryl any able minded input on how you keep track of storyline, characters, developments, quotes, etc as well as how to utilize this for series would be hugely appreciated. It would be very helpful if visual examples could be supplied as Ralph did above.

Thanks in advance!

Dawn, what if you did a recap a bit more often than at the end of the book? Only you could decide how often that should be. Perhaps the book itself would dictate. But if you were to restate/review in 2-3 sentences - for yourself only - after a group of chapters, would that help?

But at the very least, you could list the characters, list any towns or other types of settings. Would it help to create a Table in a word processor or does writing in long hand do a better job of reinforcement?

I'm in the process of trying to figure out what works best. Most of the time I right down characters and connections and thoughts and notes in long hand, since I don't normally have a computer on. I don't have an ipad type device or e-reader (I hear they are helpful, hmmm could I turn that into a medical expense). But since starting to utilize GR I have been trying to keep notes on my computer. Either way there seems to be no organization and it can make things worse for me. I guess what I need is a note-taking framework/guideline that organizes my thoughts, notes and in turn my mind. Does that make sense?

Sometimes there are families. Have you ever made a genealogy chart? You wouldn't always know all the people to fill it in, but I would think for many books that might be helpful.

I'm reading a book just now where the town is described in such a way that I know a restaurant is 2 blocks from where the fellow lives and that Albany, NY is south, etc. So some books might lend themselves to drawing a map as you read. And it doesn't have to be accurate. ;-)

Since I haven't thought about needing to take this kind of notes, I'm just brainstorming. I hope someone else pops in here with some ideas.

What kind of notes do you take now, Dawn? I'm curious, and if I can wrap my head around what you have trouble with, maybe I can come up with something.

Elizabeth had a good idea with the recaps more often through the book - what if you even jotted down a couple of sentences summarizing each chapter (ugh, except that sounds like it could be a lot of work)?

I sometimes just jot down the page # of something that interested me, a quote that I liked, a significant plot development. I know to go back to that page when writing my review.

One friend of mine writes her reviews (separately, then posts) as she goes along, so they're organized the way the book is.

First she has a sentence or two about why she chose the book and what she hopes to learn from it or like about it. Then she starts reading. When something makes her stop and think, maybe she'll add an interim reaction. So then her next paragraph will be something like 'p. 52. Not liking the main character much, but she is interesting. This is how she interacted with her family after a festival "quoted material from the book here."'

Then she'll read some more, until she goes to sleep maybe. The next morning maybe she'll add 'p. 117. The author is losing me with all the different characters and settings. I'm having trouble following what's going on, but I'm going to keep reading.'

And so on, until she finishes with something like, 'I think the author should have had a tighter focus. Also he could have helped us care about the main character more, instead of just being annoyed at her. I think these weaknesses bring my rating down from a 4 to a 3."

They're fairly long reviews, but they're really well-organized in a way that helps her appreciate the book more, and helps me decide whether to read the book myself.

Oh, I should say, it sounds like a lot of work, but since she's not doing a lot at the end, but rather is basically making her notes directly into her review, it's not so bad. And it really does help her with comprehension, I'm sure, because she's always thinking about what she's reading.

Tammy wrote: "What kind of notes do you take now, Dawn? I'm curious, and if I can wrap my head around what you have trouble with, maybe I can come up with something. "

I'm currently reading Susan Higginbotham's "The Traitor's Wife", here are some recent notes, editing out any spoiler specific information (just in case). BTW, these notes are in long hand, I keep the paper with the book so I can jot them down as I come across something.
Queen Isabella's concerns over her sisters-in-law cuckolding her bothers, and going to her father the King, she (the queen) explains as familial pride. Is this also a double standard? Would she do the same if they were her sisters? (pg 92)
Eleanor speaking back to the Queen, in part due to England's lax court but was she naive to what she said as in the above incident? Telling the queen not to talk with the King because of what he might do.

I also have comments like ... death is handled first with shock, then the horror and sadness of how it happened, then empty acceptance.

I will also put down words that I need to look up more about because the definition I have doesn't seem to fit how the word is being used. I also record incidents, events, battles, etc that I want to learn more about, always including page number.

I normally keep track of characters but the author has put together a nice list at the beginning of the book that I find myself using regularly. I keep track of quotes by listing the page number so I can later put them up in my GR book updates. Then I only have to refer to my updates for any I may want to include in my review.

I appreciate any help you can offer.

Cheryl, I've been re-reading and re-reading your comments about how your friend does notes for their reviews. I wish I could see the notes and how they then turn into her reviews. Does she do this long hand or through the computer? Is there sections or pages that she separates her notes into, or is it more like one long note? I like the idea of making a note the next morning, nice way to gauge ones feelings. It sounds like she has refined her process to a fine science.

I sincerely appreciate the input and help.

I don't know why, but for some reason I feel hesitant to reveal her name in this public forum. I'm going to PM you. :)

Elizabeth (Alaska) wrote: "Sometimes there are families. Have you ever made a genealogy chart? You wouldn't always know all the people to fill it in, but I would think for many books that might be helpful.

Since I haven't thought about needing to take this kind of notes, I'm just brainstorming."


I know this kind of brainstorming can be difficult, it is like asking you to break down how your brain processes a read and then explain to me how that break down becomes your review. That's not an easy thing to explain but very much appreciated.

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "I don't know why, but for some reason I feel hesitant to reveal her name in this public forum. I'm going to PM you. :)"

I completely understand and don't blame you especially if your not sure what they would want. It is always best to come down on the side of caution in that kind of situation.

I usually start with what I thought overall the whole book or tell the readers if their was some books before the one you are reviewing. Then I go on and talk about the plot and what I liked about it then I go onto the characters. Then I tell my opinion and close. That's pretty much it.

Anime, it sounds like you do it all from memory then, no outline, template, or structured notes. Or as the original post said it better, you sound like you write free form, therefore not using a tool, list or format, if I understand correctly. If you do have some sort of template you follow, could you share how you go about it here.

You're right Dawn, I just made it up. I guess it really isn't a template, I don't like following things like that, it bugs me. Freewrite is the best for me, though my format helps to organize my thoughts and paragraphs.

Zaira, if you check back on message #4 you will see the reason I am searching for some sort of outline or template. You mention a format, do you refer to what you mention in message #16 or something else?

I do not know if this will help you, but I keep a notebook with me when I am reading. I jot down characters, places, quotes I like, plot etc. I use these note to help me write my review.
When i write my review, i recap the author,the genre, whether or not they are new to me, give a blurp about story line, talk about characters (my likes and dislike) the overall feel of the book and then i give my overall opinion. (i add quotes etc if needed) and then i usually advise if this is a series and whether i will read it. Then i give my rating. Hope this helps :)

Dawn, it may be that you need something like:
Chapter

Characters

Action

Impressions

For each chapter. Organizing it like that and keeping it to short intervals, like chapters.
I wonder if you could find a company where you could personalize this to be printed on every page so that you could have a book full of pages like that.

You mean like a pre-formatted blank journal? Even a three-ring binder of print-outs might help.

You guys have giving me a lot to think about, as well as the external links. I think pre-printed sheets with a format that works. I know that will be a trial and error process, something is going to work. I truly appreciate everyone's help. Any other ideas, no matter how silly it may sound, please pass them along.

Cheryl, I still haven't written to your friend yet. I haven't figured out how to broach it. Thanks for my first "like" vote for a review, that means a lot.

It was a very good review by any standards. I'll PM you about *our* friend. :)

I love free-form reviews myself. I think I've kind of modeled my review style on Roger Ebert's movie reviews, which of course I've been reading for years. He doesn't tend to follow a template, but rather just comments on the things that struck him, and that's what I do. Sometimes the characterization is the best thing about the book, but other times it's not even worth mentioning. Sometimes a book made me incredibly angry, or despondent, or something, and then I will hang my review on that. You never can tell what will be the most interesting aspect of the book.

I've been having fun myself, lately, using that strategy. I don't worry so much about actually reviewing a bunch of aspects about the book, but (especially if there are already enough thorough reviews), starting with what got my attention and talking about that.

But a lot of people like a guide, a scaffold. Doesn't mean they aren't capable of writing an interesting review that is still idiosyncratic to their perceptions, but just that they want support to help them get going.

I think I'll be checking out some of your reviews now, Erin... :)

Hey everyone,

I write reviews of indie e-books at www.theunboundunderground.com and I've put together a brief tutorial about how to review books (that is, how we at the Unbound Underground do it) to clear up some of the confusion that seems to come with the topic. If you'd like to check it out, you can find it here http://www.theunboundunderground.com/.... It's not really a checklist, but it keeps our reviews fair and productive (well, hopefully it does.) Check it out and tell us what you think!

Unbound wrote: "It's not really a checklist, but it keeps our reviews fair and productive (well, hopefully it does.) Check it out and tell us what you think! ..."

I found this a very interesting approach to writing reviews. It sure aims for an audience.

Is there room here for stating a personal reaction to the book in question? I try to say what I got from the book, not what I think YOU will get from the book.

You definitely have both given me some ideas.

I try to say what I liked (and/or didn't) about a book, and also, I try to suggest who else might like (or not like) it, especially if I'm not the target audience. So having either of these kinds of templates handy, in case I'm not sure I'm being thorough, would be a Good Thing.

Thank you, both of you, very much!

I am generally NOT thorough, and just touch on the elements that meant something to me. If other people are going to read it, they will want to discover things for themselves. I like to think of a review as me just opening the door to the book; it doesn't serve anybody if I describe, down to the tiniest detail, everything that's in that room. The reader decides whether or not to go in and will have their own impressions if they do.

A review like a.g.'s makes sense in certain trade publications, for example those that librarians will look over when deciding what to order for their institutions. For casual readers on Goodreads, I think it's too much.

I found this a very interesting approach to writing reviews. It sure aims for an audience.Is there room here for stating a personal reaction to the book in question? I try to say what I got from the book, not what I think YOU will get from the book.

I think a personal reaction to a book is a worthy sentiment to share, but my personal reactions to books are...complicated, and (I suspect) not useful to anyone but me. Which isn't to say that I think everyone's personal perspective on books is useless, but I'm pretty certain mine is. I'll be honest with you here, I'm pretty weird. And my relationship with literature is weird, and I get the impression from past conversations elsewhere that it's not one that a lot of people would agree with. I hate a lot of things. In fact, I hate most things, and it's a very rare and special book that I relate to on a personal level. But hatred is boring, and hating things is boring, and it's generally healthier for everyone involved if I can keep in mind that books which might not affirm my will to live might still be valuable to someone who just wants to be entertained. Being entertained is a fair expectation from entertainment. So as a reviewer, I try to understand what expectations a book will answer. Because if I go too far into my own reaction to things, well, who does it help? Who's even interested, really, in the small list of books I find life-affirming?

So, the short answer to your question is that there are situations in which a personal perspective is really valuable. But there are other situations (mine chiefly) that a personal perspective is just like telling someone about a weird dream you had when the only person who understands the subtext that makes the dream worth talking about...is you.

Not everyone wants the same things I want from literature, and that's okay. In fact, most people expressly want something different, even opposite, and that's okay too. Trying to argue people into seeing books my way just makes me depressed and everyone else angry. (Trust me, I've tried.) So I leave my personal opinions out, but I still know the mechanics of writing and can competently point out features of books to other people. So I just try to do that. It's simpler, I guess.

That wasn't a short answer at all. Sorry. Maybe I should just write a blog post about it.

It sounds like you all are expressing conflicting ideas - but I'm not sure they need to be seen as oppositional. Maybe it's about finding balance.

And of course it's about choosing your audience. If you want to write to me, you'll be more concise and focused, but still both somewhat comprehensive and personal. If you want to write to Stephen's fans, you'll want to make your review long and exciting. If you want to write for yourself, none of this necessarily applies! < grin >

For example, being 'tiniest detail' thorough probably isn't going to be helpful to a lot of people, but being too vague about what's good and bad about a book, or not including something personal as well as something objective, might not be enough to get 'likes' or to help readers like me.

For another example, Unbound says " Who's even interested, really, in the small list of books I find life-affirming?" Well, probably your goodreads friends are. Some very popular reviews here on goodreads are very personal, and offbeat, and only tangentially related to the book being reviewed. So, depending on who you've decided to write the review for, you may tip the scale to describing your dreams. A well-liked reviewer named Manny writes like that. I, otoh, like some of that kind of stuff, but maybe not quite as much as you could give me, if you really went all Joyce-ian stream-of-consciousness on me.

Just some of my thoughts.

One thing I know for sure - I'm glad you're all sharing your ideas - everyone's given me much to think about, and to learn from. :)

For me, each review has a mission, or a purpose. If it's just to put my endorsement on a book and nothing more I write differently than if it's for a group read, or, it's a book that I really felt strongly about. For example... just a fun book might bet a review like the ones I wrote for

Monster Hunter International #1
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

and

Bubba and the Dead Woman
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

If I am doing a review for a group read then it may come out more like a book report like my review on

Frankenstien
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

and

1984
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

and one that I liked, and just felt strongly about maybe the reviews I wrote for

Declare
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

or

Swan Song
http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

So, my reviews change with the book (because of it), or the purpose (group read etc.) Or how strongly I like it and sometimes I want to tell someone about something good, or just inform then about an enjoyable read.

a.g. wrote: "I just tend to go into detail because I really love discussing books. My husband reads as much as me (maybe even more), but we don't share interests in genre (he reads non-fiction and Clive Cussler where I read more young adult and classics). Sometimes we cross-over, but it doesn't happen much. I guess I just like getting the majority of my thoughts down in my review so that if anyone happened to read it, I'd be ready to discuss it..."

I'm with you there. I don't live in a small town, but my wife and I have very different tastse in books and as an adult moving into middle age, the opportunity to talk about books I've read in the detail that I would like is rare, even if we share the same tastes in books. So, when given a chance, I'm more likely to write more than less. Heh-heh-heh...as you can probably tell from my posts.
({B-:{D>)

I did go back and edit in the links to the actual reviews for my post (#35, as they stand now)

a.g. wrote: "Curmudgeon wrote: "I'm with you there. I don't live in a small town, but my wife and I have very different tastse in books and as an adult moving into middle age, the opportunity to talk about book..."

Yes, and I like to get so "into the discussion" my friends at work just aren't prepared to go that far with me. I get away with my kindle at work, sometimes. But, as much as I would think this group (mental health and Substance Abuse Treatment Counselors (With the US Navy) might like to, they just don't seem as interested as I am. A good review lets me let it all hang out in a way that every now and then, somebody comes back and goes "Like" and I can feel happy.

Sounds like you two have a pretty good idea of what you want out of reading & reviewing. Bear in mind some folks are still unsure of themselves, and that's why I started this group, and especially this topic thread. Some people don't write very many reviews, and come here looking for guides or templates, to help them get started. :)

Well, I'm not sure I have a pretty good idea of anything. I just tend to go my own way like the Lone Wolf.

Having said that, I understand and, yes, seems like I'm wearing the hairy shirt here (that means patting myself on the back...at least I hope that's what it means).

I just wanted to get forward the idea that you may have, or want different formulas for different reasons. It's more like playing golf when your learning. Sure, if you can work on one aspect of the game, then that helps, but when your on the course sometimes you just have to try and hit that "fade" because that's what's called for (and if your me, that usually means I get to go join the wild life on a "where the heck did you hit that" ball hunt).

I'm not sure I have the right formula but, I think it's getting better. It helps me to think of writing a review the same way I look at cooking. I can cook a lot of different things, but rather than using a template or certain criteria, I'm settling on a recipe.

If you are like I am, when you cook, A recipe is always just a "guideline." I substitute when I don't have something. EVERY time I cook it's seasoned to taste and sometimes I have to do things different because the Ham won't fit in the pot this time.

Words like Criteria and template make me nervous because they suggest hard lines... and I like a little freedom, but, I do follow a recipe (though as mentioned above it's not just one recipe (or not the same golf shot, or same hole, every time I get on the Tee.)

Generally the "For a group" reviews are the most restrictive. The others, the recipe starts with the basics, which nave been mentioned in several ways here. Groups usually give some type of a guide or questions or something to try and generate discussions on the threads. If they don't then, we're still talking about process that's different than just keeping a public journal of what I've read and liked or trying to tell an author what I didn't like.

So, Something more "book Report (ish)" may be in order.

Generally these are the basic parts of my recipe card.

Why read this? (which sometimes means why review).

What Happened? (synopsis)

Who? (Characters)

What's important? (Books are different. Each one has it's own core and center that rings a bell for me. What is it about THIS book that I think will make it worth reading to others)

Warnings? All books are not for all people. If I talk up a book like Monster Hunter international there are some things that I KNOW other people think about.. Violence, sex, age appropriate? Romance (some people don't like Romance.) Sometimes the warnings are better than the review.

And is there something that turns me off, on, or, maybe it didn't turn me off, but, I recognize that the writer is not on the same wavelength as me, and people who think like me.

A prime example is how female characters are written/treated in books. I have always been aware, but now that I have a beautiful 7 year old daughter, I suddenly realize that there are not a lot of good characters for her to learn from like there were for me when I was growing up. So if I'll take a moment to mention that.

But a lot of that are the "spices" that I like to cook with... my "Worcestershire Sauce" (the best spice ever made).

It's a recipe so you "cook to taste." Not to formula or "criteria" (at least I do). So, I have things I use, but, some people are alergic to Mushrooms. They won't like my cooking and there is no reason for them to learn my way.

I say look at reviews that you like. I mean like you might look at a recipe you'd like to try... start there and see what they used...most have their recipe as headers or each ingredient in one of the first two sentences of every paragraph.

I hope that was more helpful than dropping links to reviews ({B-:{D>) See, an old dog can be taught...without a rolled up newspaper!

Recipe is a good word for it. I think lots of us agree that most recipes are adaptable, as reviews should be, at least in most situations. Thanks!

Some very popular reviews here on goodreads are very personal, and offbeat, and only tangentially related to the book being reviewed.

I'm curious about which reviews you're referencing. Do you have a link or an example I can look at? Maybe my reviews come across as overly dry, and I've missed something.

(there was a whole long post here, but I've just posted it on my blog www.theunboundunderground.com)

It sounds like I'm lobbying for one way over the other, and I don't mean to. I guess I'm still a little unclear on how people incorporate a personal perspective into a book review without alienating the people who don't/won't agree with you. The only thing I can think of is to have an audience only comprised of people who agree with you, and I'm completely lost on how to do that.

Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "Recipe is a good word for it. I think lots of us agree that most recipes are adaptable, as reviews should be, at least in most situations. Thanks!"

Yes, the recipe analogy gets really deep too. When you cook for somebody else (the friends from next door) you still cook like you know how to cook, but you do take their tastes into account too...

Cooking is a skill, you can have any skill you want, you just have to practice it. If you don't break a few eggs, you'll never make an omelette... I may like to eat (read) but that doesn't make me a good cook. I become good at cooking buy cooking...

I could go on.. but I'll stop before somebody calls th police and those guys who come with a lot of pre-packaged thorozine and stuff.)

< smiles >

Here's a couple of websites that provide Reading Group Guides - you know, those discussion questions in the back of many popular literature titles. We could look at those questions to give us ideas about what to write about in our informal reviews:

www.readinggroupguides.com
www.bookbrowse.com

I just ran across a review that shows me a whole different style. It could almost be called a template. Apparently it works for youngsters in a a classroom.

What? So what? Now what?

https://www.goodreads.com/review/show...

Not sure where this scrap of paper came from, but in an effort to winnow files, here we go:

*Questions New Critics Ask:*

1. What parts of the story or poem seem most significant?
....a) Situation
....b) Language
....c) Characters
2. What formal structures of the text encourage the reader to look at it that way?
3. Do certain situations, symbolism, or motifs occur?
4. What parallels can the reader discover with other texts?
5. What contrasts can the reader discover?
6. What large patterns occur? For example, if you were mapping the piece of literature what were the major pieces? (Climax, etc.)
7. What themes are highlighted by the patterns you have identified?
8. How do the form and the theme relate (connect)?

What Cheryl described is generally termed an exposition (often also called an exeogesis) . You have to produce an exposition for your thesis when completing postgraduate work in English Lit or the Humanities (perhaps in other subjects also). Essentially it is an additional essay explaining why the work is clever. Lol- and "it just is, right" for some reason does not seem to do the trick.
This seems an excellent list. Thank you Cheryl.

Good to know, thank you!