Fantasy Aficionados discussion

This may get some discussion or it may not... I have some "chores" to do this afternoon, kitchen clean up etc. When I do that I like to put on an audio book. I just browsed through the downloadable books from my library. Aside from the paranormal romances (which interest me not at all) I really didn't see anything (other than what I've read already and some I own in print) that jumped out at me...had to be at least 500 books. So many of the books had an axe to grind. One where a young man (boy) finds that the aliens being blown up in computer games ARE REAL (gasp) and young people are unscrupulously being tricked into blowing them up....There's a world where a young man starts to study magic, see WOMEN AREN'T WORTHY OF DOING MAGIC! He of course finds out that some magic is being held back, a woman mage saves him, yada, yada, yada.... Okay let's beat our computers into ploughshares, and I know women have been discriminated against, or at least were considered second class citizens. I know racism is bad, and violence hurts... I get it, I really do.

But just now and then don't you like to read just a story. Does everyone have to awaken my consciousness? When I was a teen I got into DEEP, MEANINGFUL, INSIGHTFUL, even ANGSTY stories, but you know now and then I like to read just a story. I like to see bad guys who are actually bad guys. I like to see good guys who are actually good guys, just once in a while.

Is that wrong? am I alone? is it all over? Will I never blow up an alien again without "wondering"?

I'm always tired of the "save mother earth" plot myself, just to add to your list. I'm also tired of what should be light escapism reading being weighed down by authors trying to be what they aren't. On the flip side I'm also tired of well written but dry and boring books.

I agree with you completely. Remembering, from classes in school, how one had to underline and decipher themes and look for metaphors and character traits, etc........I do like to just pick up a book and not have any other agenda other than going along for the ride.

I don't think your unusual in desiring something straightforward, Mike. I have plenty of days where I want to read something that won't require me to think terribly hard. Straightforward good vs evil with a happy ending definitely has it's place in my world.

I suppose that some writers feel that a straightforward story, well-told, just isn't enough, so they throw in social commentary thinly disguised as part of the plot in order to give the story more depth or relevance or importance, at least in their own eyes. I think this is a mistaken approach, as readers don't usually want to be educated, enlightened, or have their consciousnesses raised yet one more time regarding issues with which they are already perfectly familiar.

Traci, you brought up something that could open another branch of this discussion. I've been punching the wall lately over the adds for the remake of part of the Planet of the Apes movie series... It's the wonderful apes wipe out the nasty humans one. There's a shot in one of the adds of the top chimpanzee idyllically walking among other animals petting them... There are basically 2 lines of chimps, both omnivorous. One mostly eats fruit, the other eat mostly meat, more meat than humans and they're viscous dangerous hunters.

Of course I didn't like the original Planet of the Apes stuff, so they won't be getting any of my money anyway...

There was also the re-make of The Day the Earth Stood Still. The first one, humans are warlike and about to leave the Earth, so "we" get warned that exploration etc. is fine, but if we're warlike in space they'll send the robots to kill us.... The new one? Why they come to save the Earth, not the people, "Gaia" needs them... They're coming because of global warming, and because the mean evil humans don't deserve the planet. We need to be nice to Gaia....

Excuse me I need to go puke...

Sorry, see how tired I am of having my consciousness raised?

I know what you mean, Sensei. Another reason I really can't get away from loving the Belgariad series. Everything is wonderfully black & white.

'Planet Of The Apes' done all over again as 'Rise Of The Planet Of The Apes'...let's see...there are billions of us and probably only millions of them, even if you include gorillas and orangutans. We have ships, planes, automatic weapons, tanks, planes, helicopter gunships and artillery. They have stone-tipped spears. I can suspend my disbelief only so high.
Something that also irks me greatly is any book or movie where some character is depicted as The Chosen One.

This happens to be a topic that I'd love to discuss. I grew up in the former USSR (if you are young and need to look it up, please do) and was taught early on about art as an ideological weapon. And so it is. I am very selective about what I read and watch in terms of the messaging. For one, I don't want to suffer through more hostile ideological garbage- been there, done that, got the T-shirt. Plus, even when it's good and entertaining, I don't wish to support artists whose worldview is inimical to my own. Call me closed minded- I'm old enough to not need to be cool:)

@Mike- is one of those stories you're referencing written by Orson Scott Card? Just curious, don't want to give any spoilers if it is.

It's not exactly the message that bothers me. If the story is well told and entertaining, if the story comes first and the message is something that I come to on my own it has a bigger impact on me. I don't like being told what to think. One example of a heavy handed book I liked is The Road. One I didn't enjoy as much as I should've was Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged. I actually agree with some of her beliefs, but I hated how many times she repeated the same thoughts over and over and over....I had to skip long speeches near the middle of the book.

@Mike(or anyone actually) have you seen the newest version of Invasion of the Body Snatchers with Nicole Kidman? I was yelling at the screen at the end, atleast I watched it at home. (view spoiler)[The movie's message, IMO, was how better off we were as pod people. Much more peaceful and happier. (hide spoiler)]

No...but I decided not to follow his Empire series and burned out on the Ender Universe when I ran into Speaker for the Dead. I know a lot won't read him over his views on sexual orientation, never ran across that in any of his stories, still, "to each" as they say. I've liked some of his work, not others.

No, I saw the first remake with Donald Sutherland and still haven't gotten the bad taste out of my mouth.

I don't necessarily mind a message book, if I want to read a message book or if IT SAYS it's a message, Animal Farm, 1984, Brave New World, Atlas Shrugged, Fahrenheit 451, even The Weapons Shops of Isher all are message books and agree with them or not, pretty good reads. On the other hand, Mother Earth isn't sending poison pollen or maddened frogs after us to wipe us out, the vast majority of people I know are neither rabid racists or sexists, if we're all nice to each other all the worlds bullies will not go away, there is no moral imperative to keep humans out of space, all Christians, Buddhists, atheists, Republicans, Democrats, and Shriners are not out to conquer the world and set up an evil empire! Probably. And if they are write a book about that don't hide it in a story about romantic vampires, unappreciated werewolves or mistreated orcs!

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "No...but I decided not to follow his Empire series and burned out on the Ender Universe when I ran into Speaker for the Dead. I know a lot won't read him over his views on sexual orientation, never..."

I have a love-hate relationship with Card, both in "story" and "message." I had a major problem with Ender's Game (view spoiler)[ the whole if-we-could-only-understand-each other-we-would-not-have-to-fight train of thought is fairly repugnant to me (hide spoiler)] but I loved the Shadow series and enjoyed the recent direct Ender's Game sequel Ender in Exile. I have a feeling as he got older his views have changed a bit, closer to my liking. About his views on sexual orientation, he believes that gays are born that way but should make an effort to stay in conventional marriages for the sake of society. That's about as even handed as it gets, so I'm not sure how that would turn people off.

Masha wrote: "Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "No...but I decided not to follow his Empire series and burned out on the Ender Universe when I ran into Speaker for the Dead. I know a lot won't read him over his views o..."

That is the exactly the opposite for me. I hated the Shadow books and Ender in Exile, but loved Ender's Shadow because they felt more like a everyday novel, like being a political thriller and the such. I got nothing out of the books.

Actually I admit to being a hypocrite on the subject. If the message is the one I like, I don't mind it. So sue me.

@Kevin- You mean you loved Ender's Game, right? Ender's Shadow is the start of the Shadow series.

Personally I was and actually still am unaware of his (Card's) opinion on sexual orientation as I never ran across anything he'd said or written on it and it's not "buried in his stories" which is what I was "shouting about here". LOL so, like I said everyone can obviously decide for themselves. I just burned out on my library search today. The downloadable audios were heavily loaded with message books and PNR.

Masha wrote: "Actually I admit to being a hypocrite on the subject. If the message is the one I like, I don't mind it. So sue me."

I don't necessarily mind a message book, if I want to read a message book or if IT SAYS it..."


I'm the same :)


Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "No, I saw the first remake with Donald Sutherland and still haven't gotten the bad taste out of my mouth.

I liked the Donald Sutherland movie and kind of liked the '93 one in a guilty way.

As noted above... different tastes.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Personally I was and actually still am unaware of his (Card's) opinion on sexual orientation as I never ran across anything he'd said or written on it and it's not "buried in his stories" which is ..."

There's a subplot in the Homecoming series that involves a gay man and confirms what I said in the above post. Not buried, but pretty explicitly addressed. Some people say the whole Homecoming series is Mormon propaganda, but that aspect was lost on me and I found all the books except the last one very enjoyable (the last one was preachy and boring, did I mention the love-hate relationship?)

Card can run hot and cold. Terry Goodkind did the same thing in his Sword of Truth books. I kind of liked the first and a few weren't bad but by the end they were just long diatribes on his point of view with a little story thrown in because he needed it as a platform.

Masha wrote: "Actually I admit to being a hypocrite on the subject. If the message is the one I like, I don't mind it. So sue me."

It's strange. Even if I agree it bugs me. But I will admit to a level of anger when it's a view I disagree with. Only if it beats me over the head though.

Masha wrote: "@Kevin- You mean you loved Ender's Game, right? Ender's Shadow is the start of the Shadow series."

No, I loved all four Ender book plus Ender's Shadow. I loved Ender's Shadow because it allowed the reader to see the Ender's Game from the inside.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "Card can run hot and cold. Terry Goodkind did the same thing in his Sword of Truth books. I kind of liked the first and a few weren't bad but by the end they were just long diatribes on his point o..."
Funny it just shows how tastes can differ. Terry Goodkind is my favorite fantasy author, and my favorite books from the series were Book 5 and Book 8, the most message heavy. The last trilogy, if anything, had a little too much story for me and he kept introducing new characters all the time, but I still enjoyed it and the ending was awesome so it was all worth it for me in the end.

Kevin wrote: "Masha wrote: "@Kevin- You mean you loved Ender's Game, right? Ender's Shadow is the start of the Shadow series."

No, I loved all four Ender book plus Ender's Shadow. I loved Ender's Shadow because..."
Ah, got it. I agree about political thriller stuff by the way. My problem was that I fell in love with the Shadow series characters and had to keep going even if Card switched the genre on us.

You're right I was annoyed by the last books. It's a matter of taste and I suppose agreeing or disagreeing. I didn't disagree with all he said, but he was so heavy handed and condescending (my opinion of course).

That was what I said earlier, if a book says up front it's basically a message book at least you get what you expect. Goodkind started one way and became more and more ideology as he went....

Like I said, to each their own.

Well I knew Goodkind is an Objectivist, pretty open about it, and when you go read an Objectivist book, heavy messaging comes with the territory, for better or worse.

I actually appreciated him being fairly respectful of religion, for an Objectivist. I expected worse on that front.

I'm side stepping a bit here, because I disagree...a lot. He was actually fairly condescending.

Also, let get this straight (not arguing, just clarifying) you are saying ANY objectivist who writes will fill his work with "heavy messaging"? I mean the first 3 or so in that series weren't all that heavy. It is possible to tell a story from a given point of view or world view without beating the readers over the head with it.

Isn't that against the spirit of Ayn Rand? I mean, she's kind of the mother of all examples of increasingly beating her readers over the head with her half-baked philosophy. *not a fan* *unfamiliar with other Objectivists, unless you count Greenspan*

True and we know up front that Ayn Rand is an Objectivist first and a novelist second... When I read Atlas Shrugged I knew I was getting a novel that was primarily an argument for her philosophy, the story itself would come second.

By the way...who IS John Galt? :)

Sure, but the progression from We the Living to Atlas Shrugged is pretty extreme, and I don't believe she was as developed in or known for her philosophy when the former was published. I don't know Goodkind at all and I really didn't have a point when I brought up Rand. I just saw the opportunity for that single comment.

John Galt is a construct devised by a secretive cabal of academics who used Ayn Rand as a front for their conspiracy to lure undergraduates into constant debates about rather dull and terrible books. Something like the Spectra Hoax, but more boring and sinister and more useful in securing their careers. The internet has put their success into jeopardy, but some things are impossible to stop.

Masha wrote: "Kevin wrote: "Masha wrote: "@Kevin- You mean you loved Ender's Game, right? Ender's Shadow is the start of the Shadow series."

No, I loved all four Ender book plus Ender's Shadow. I loved Ender's ..."

My whole point is that I loved when Orson Scott Card was trying give the readers some kind of message in his first four Ender's book. I think that improved the qualities of his books. Now he has started to write more mainstream, which I think is boring.

This might not be the place, but I've been wondering about "the other Morman". I know a bit about the religion and I know that family and having babies is very important to them. In my understanding, in stricter households a woman who doesn't have a baby can be disowned. So I get why Card is against gays. (however it's unfair of him to say you were born this way but can't live this way) But how does the Twilight series push this agenda? Bella comes from a divorced family. She sneaks a boy in her room almost everynight. She fights constantly with her father and treats her mother like another teen. She doesn't believe in marriage. The issue of abortion does come up but most of the characters are for it. (freedom to choose means you can also choose not to) I'm not trying to defend the books. Not trying to be a smartass. It's an honest question.

Denae wrote: "Sure, but the progression from We the Living to Atlas Shrugged is pretty extreme, and I don't believe she was as developed in or known for her philosophy when the former was p..."

I liked We the Living, it shows how common life is in communism instead of a impersonal history lesson. Actually got alot out of that book but I could've done without the odd love story. That's my second problem with her writing, the first being the heavy beat you over the head messages, her characters are so cold. Must admit to loving the moment in Fountainhead when he blows up his building rather than give the plans though.*I come from stubborn Welsh blood.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "I'm side stepping a bit here, because I disagree...a lot. He was actually fairly condescending.

Also, let get this straight (not arguing, just clarifying) you are saying ANY objectivist who write..."

I said "respectful of religion for an Objectivist," meaning at least he allowed one can be (and stay) religious and still use reason and be on the side of good, which is more than many non-Objectivist atheist writers would do. Verna was my favorite side character in the series, and she started out religious and stayed that way even though she changed and grew as a person.

As to your question, I suppose it COULD be possible, by aside from Rand and Goodkind I only read one other Objectivist author and it was just as heavy message wise. I think when an author is this passionate about his beliefs, that's what he wants to write about. I guess it's the difference between authors who write to just tell a story and those who want to influence the world- neither is wrong, just different in what drives them to write.

Traci wrote: "This might not be the place, but I've been wondering about "the other Morman". I know a bit about the religion and I know that family and having babies is very important to them. In my understandin..."

I don't know A LOT about Mormonism except what I learned from Card's opinion essays. But just thinking of "regular" Judeo-Christian POV, here's what I got from Twilight-

Practice self-control and don't give in to evil urges, even if those urges are not of your choosing
Sacrifice for those you love
Make the best of what fate hands you and turn it to good instead of feeling sorry for yourself
Redemption is open to anyone who's willing to change and start doing good deeds
Love is a powerful force that can overcome barriers among people and nations
Oh yeah, and no sex before marriage, even if you happen to be 100 years old:)

Now to get those messages you have to realize that sparkly vampires are better role models than human Bella, but it's all in there.

I do realize that, fresh off showing my adoration for Objectivist authors I proceed to defend a Mormon preaching self-sacrifice, but I can't help it that I like both:)

I dislike books with heavy messages...even when I agree with them. It drives me crazy.

I'd never read Atlas Shrugged and I had some idea to read it in the future...but no thank you. You guys have cured me of that. :-)

I read for escapism very often. I live in the nation's capital and all I get is news and political posturing on a daily basis. It makes my head want to explode and I often have to go on DC & news vacations.

Give me a good book with no agenda as a palate cleanser, PLEASE. :)

MrsJoseph wrote: "I dislike books with heavy messages...even when I agree with them. It drives me crazy.

I'd never read Atlas Shrugged and I had some idea to read it in the future...but no thank you. You guys h..."

You definately want to stay away from Atlas Shrugged then. I do recommend We the Living though and it's short.

Re:Twilight, ah vampire Mormans. And Bella does get converted. Lol.

A palate cleanser is exactly what I find myself needing. That's the perfect way to put it, MrsJ!

We the Living sucks as an "escape" read. It's dark and will stay in your head for a good long time.

To anyone interested in Atlas Shrugged, I recommend reading it without the speeches. If you need the speeches to get the point, you have to be pretty dense. But again, not an "escape" story by any means.

If you just want to be able to say "I have read Ayn Rand," stick with Anthem.

@Traci Vampire Mormons: ROTFLMAO! You are too funny.

I doubt she was recommending We The Living as an escape read. :) Personally, I like it much better than any of her other books. I particularly disliked Anthem, but that's just me.

Hi Denae....I knew who John Galt was/is...just joking, LOL, hahahahah.....good one, okay, uhhh, moving on, sorry.

My point. When I was younger I think I would have been in the "novels should change the world" camp. I've had 50 years(+or-) of that and I know what I think and believe. I don't resent that these books are out there, it's just that that's not all I want to read. So many times the author is so impressed by his or her own insight that they don't even see their own heavy-handedness.

So, enjoy I guess. I don't think most of us need to be spoon fed a political or other kind of philosophy.

I read political works, I'm conservative and a book that agrees with the views I already hold is far easier to read than one that does not. Now and then I do read something that disagrees with me. And usually end up explaining to the book why it's wrong (my daughter gets finds this comical for some reason). But as I said here at the beginning, more and more I'd like just an occasional book that just tells a story.

I realize even these will reflect a world view Dracula in my opinion one of the great horror reads of all time, strongly reflects the Roman Catholic worldview. So much so that holy water and "wafer" are still in the lexicon of vampire weapons. I didn't however come away from the book Roman Catholic. The Wheel of Time series is heavily eastern (mostly Hindu) in it's view of the universe/multiverse. It didn't change my own understanding of reality. These books weren't heavy handed they just came from a give point of view. Anyone read John Twelve Hawk's trilogy? The first one The Traveler drew me in and was excellent I loved it. By the third the trilogy had turned into a treatise on Buddhist cosmology and bored me (almost to tears), it was a shame as the first had such promise. It's something I'm more and more aware of, that so many books seem to have a huge axe to grind.

Denae wrote: "I doubt she was recommending We The Living as an escape read. :) Personally, I like it much better than any of her other books. I particularly disliked Anthem, but that's just me."

This =)

Btw I don't want to read a preachy book but isn't sad that when a book has characters of high morals we assume they're trying to sell us something.

Mike (the Paladin) wrote: "But just now and then don't you like to read just a story. Does everyone have to awaken my consciousness? When I was a teen I got into DEEP, MEANINGFUL, INSIGHTFUL, even ANGSTY stories, but you know now and then I like to read just a story. "

I read for entertainment and that is pretty much the story as far as I'm concerned. At my age I pretty much don't *do* DEEP, MEANINGFUL, INSIGHTFUL been there, done that too many times already.

I am fully aware that life is not necessarily fair and 'happy ever after' is a myth ... that's why they call them fairy tales.

But when I want to be entertained, that means you can suspend reality and at least reading about 'happy ever after' is pleasant entertainment.

I really did not care for Goodkind being preachy because I agreed with his point of views.

Got ya Kevin...I didn't say it was the only reason, though I did say that if one agreed with an author's take it could make it easier.

It's cool to read for meaning...I'm just saying it's not the only reason to read and I'm tired of being preached at in most books I pick up. TV movies and novels have become so polarized it's often hard to find a story that's a story. Just tell me up front, "this novel is a strong statement for ______(fill in the blank)", that's all.

Hi Sharon. I've said since Old Yeller that some people seem not to have enough pain in their lives so they read depressing or emotionally straining books (or see the movies, etc.). I have a real life, have seen death, struggled with deep finical troubles, been unemployed for a long period of time, been divorced,....shall I go on? I'm with you. At times I like a story, I don't need to immerse myself in imaginary angst.

I'm not against "meaning" or "cause" books, The Jungle, The Octopus....Uncle Tom's Cabin (when Abraham Lincoln met Harriet Beecher Stowe he's reputed to have greeted her as "the little lady who started the big war"). Cause books have a great history...but every book doesn't have to be preachy. My favorite novel is To Kill a Mockingbird, a cause book if there ever was one, but not heavy handed or preachy.

See what I'm saying?

Masha wrote: "Actually I admit to being a hypocrite on the subject. If the message is the one I like, I don't mind it. So sue me."

lol at (and with) Masha. :) Isn't that the truth?!

I'm with you, Mike on the "imaginary angst" of certain books--most of the time I read for escape and enjoyment as well. So I'm like a lot of readers in this thread that prefer their messages more veiled and less overt. That said, sometimes issue exploration is very interesting and makes for a fascinating story The Left Hand of Darkness.

The interesting thing here is a potential division between overt "messages/agendas" and good/creative storytelling.

I'd say that a good writer/storyteller could do a little preaching without it getting in the way of the story. Less good writer/storytellers probably cannot. Some writers will jump on whatever trend seems to be popular within their own circle of family and friends, or among the general public depending on what sources provide their inspiration. Some may even have the idea that their writing can or should help make the world a better place. Such efforts can be overdone, or even done badly.

To go a little off-topic, I'm tired of how most people (writers, readers and critics alike) confuse "dark and depressing" with "meaningful and deep." Why is that? I wonder if it's like with visual arts- if you don't find it easily satisfying, it must be deep.