Action/Adventure Aficionados discussion
General A&A Discussion
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What should be included in the Genre?
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I know that is increasingly hard to assess what a book's genre is because there are books that cross genres very easily.
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I know that is increasingl..."
I agree. I think that some genre's that are now considered mainstream had their start (and therefor thei roots) in this Genre. Specifically a lot of the Urban Fantasy books. Surley they have developed in their own right, but there was a time when fantasy meant sword, scorcery, princess, prince knight etc... nothing modern.
Hugh, I agree about urban fantasy. For example, "The Secret Histories" series by Simon R. Green closely resemble action adventure stories, but they are way more fantastical.
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Absolutely. Even the old Dracula stories, (not so much Brahms Stoker's version, but early 20th century stuff, involved a lot of the same aspects as the James Rollins stuff I appreciate so much.
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SOmetimes I sound like I was as a slightly OCD kid separating all my M&Ms by colour, then... trying to eat them that way. By the end of the bag I was just shoveling them in my mouth.
I know what I think is a good action adventure, but, like your suggesting, I take each book on it's own value despite what I may have said about criteria and file it according to feel (maybe not feel, maybe impression?) anyway. So it never looks like I'm doing what I planned.
One book at a time on it's own merits works for me. (and keeps me from making too much of a hypocrite of myself)
Should there be a epic folder? That can be classics/historical/fantasy.Should there be a seperate place for space opera?
There's also military science fiction/fantasy. Which I guess could be categorized as space opera.
Is there a folder for the more urban fantasy/romance fiction?
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I'm thinking yea, we could use one either for both fantasy and sci-fi or one of each.
As for the epics, I think it might be fun to have folder critiquing the tales of Gilgamesh and the Trojan War as told by Homer and some dusty babalonian. Or we can squeeze them in on the classics and mod the title to include epics.
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The GR system helps by bringing those with with active discussion to the top, but that also sometimes burries good discussion in the process.
open as someone shows interest I think.
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I'm not a moderator, so you guys do what you think best, but it looks to me as if we should consider keeping sub-heads limited and lean a bit harder on the "action" in the book or for that matter movie, TV program, game or whatever.
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There's a great thread over on the Kindle Boards that deals specifically with genre. What drives the story, what is it about? Is it a romantic thriller, or a thriller heavy on romance? Action/Adventure in space or a Science Fiction adventure?i don't get the feeling that this group has any desire to limit itself to discussing pure, specific Action/Adventure. More likely, I see us looking for those books that contain the spirit of A/A regardless of their primary genre or story elements. Like pornography, we'll know it when we see it. The rest is just housekeeping.
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The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be
(last edited Sep 14, 2011 06:07PM)
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I completely get the pornography analogy and second the motion! (and as an Old Goat (Chief) I know where I need to stop the analogy before I really get into trouble.)
Actually, I really do appriciate and agree with you, Pax. I couldn't have said it better myself, though, I try, and I try, and I try (I can't get no satisfaction)... Thank you for putting it in terms the slowe witted, (like my self) and sleep deprived (unfortunately, still, like my self), drunk (There, but by the Grace of God, Go I), and drug addled (so far that Grace thing works here too).
We'll know what goes here when we see it. It's a spirit guid we need, not dewey decimal system.
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I wasn't aware Tom Clancy held "book singings"... cool. Is he like a baritone?
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Hon, fire up another EDIT!... boy, I miss having the Ops Yoeman clean up my shi... er stuff, for me befire I let real people see it. (A good Yoeman has actually ascened the bounds of mortal man. At least where corespondence is concnerned. )
What Hugh said, let's buy Dewey a spirit and get on with the fun. and Hugh, speaking of spirits, and old Navy Chiefs. Should we ever have chance to meet, it would be an honor to buy you a drink.
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Lady D, I know exactly what your saying. I myself enjoy a good romance action story, especially when the main character is a strong kick ass female. A couple of writers I've read are Keri Arthur, The Riley Jensen Series and Rachel Vincent her Shifters series. Both have alot of action. I know both these series are classified has urban fantasy. I would consider them A/A.
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Of course I suppose apart from the errors mentioned part of the problem could be the reader here. For example so far he's called "MI6" "M16" and pronounced "archangel" as "arch angel" as in "arch villain".
I read a lot of fantasy and classics but very few I would call action books. For me it generally comes down to how I think the writer has written the book. If it's fast paced, has lots of battle scenes in it (highly descriptive) or other similar action then I would generally include it as an action-adventure book.I guess the best way to describe my view is this. The Lord of the Rings is one of my favourite books and in it Tolkien does feature a lot of fighting but I would hardly call it an action book mainly because he doesn't use the action as the main focus of his story and writes in a way that more describes how war destroys everything. Then you have later works such as say Game of Thrones which seems to feature nothing but violence so I would have to say its an action book. Whether it's a good action book is not the question.
I say the last because I'm against violence for violence's sake. I think there should be a purpose. For instance defending honour, integrity, one's country, one's life or other people.
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It's steampunk, not magic, which makes it dystopian (in a way) since it's on a altered Earth, but, we're talking all the elements of a good Espionage story here, lots of action things blowing up and such.
And for the general theme, here, I might respectfully disagree with Johnathan about Tolkien. I thing long periods of talk and description often come with Fantasy, but, the Two Towers, the Battle of Helm's Deep has a lot of action in it. The entire book is two battles (Helm's Deep and The White Tower). One could say the same for the Return of the King.
What's the difference between the battle of Helms deep and a good war story?
Again, we're talking about action and adventure elements within other genre's so, I wouldn't put them in the same Genre with Alistair Maclean's Navarone, but, don't they do the same thing?
a small band sets out to take down a big evil and ventures across hostile territory?
There are chases across open plains where wolves attack and even in the first book (The Fellowship) they have to fight off all sorts of things. Moria wasn't exactly a cake walk of talk and detective work.
And most people focus on the "Action" word here. Adventure is also part of the title, what constitutes an adventure?
(But as I said above, we're not saying these should be officially added to the A/A genre, just that there are plenty of tense action and adventure aspects other books and genre's that attract us as readers.)
I'm not saying that Tolkien's work lacks action. I love his work and have to rate it as one of the greatest works of fiction I have so far read. I do however say that it is not an action novel unlike some other fantasy works I have read. Because Tolkien's work is not centred around the action but around characters. He attempts to show us through the characters the effect that evil threatens Middle Earth. And as such writes a very anti-war story. I'm saying that The Lord of the Rings is a fantasy novel with action in it but is not an action novel.
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(But as I said above, we're not saying these should be officially added to the A/A genre, just that there are plenty of tense action and adventure aspects other books and genre's that attract us as readers.)
I'm just putting out my idea that I see the Lord of the Rings as belonging to a different area than action and adventure.Lady Danielle "The Book Huntress" wrote: "I like what you said about a person's opinion being important. If a reader who enjoys action can read a book and consider it action adventure, that's fine with me."
For me it comes down to specific elements. I class action and adventure books as ones which generally center around much of that. The Lord of the Rings for me never centered around the action (adventure maybe...so yes it is an adventure novel). I was merely trying to convey the point that while my favourite book has adventure and action sequences in it I personally don't class it as that because it does not center around those elements mainly.
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That's my take and what I think of and it's not incumbent on anyone to agree with me.
(Of course most everyone knows I'm always right, but if you disagree it's a free country and I can't help you if you choose to continue to insist on your folly. [sigh] I've done my best.)
:)
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The catagorizing convention of Genre, what is and isn't, and what belongs and what doesn't, has been undergoing some upheaval over the last few years.
Generally, traditionally speaking, the publishing industry states as "party line" that Genre is determined by the readers. However, in practice they are blaming genre (for praise or complaint) on readers, when, in fact it is market driven and has been for sometime.
The process of catagorizing a book into a genre was the basically set as the publishing company determend too whom and how to market a particular book (product). Once upon a time, there was Horror, Science Fiction/Fantasy, Romance etc. with science fiction "slash" fantasy as one genre.
And, a practice I've been told is 200 years old, they set up rules that went back to writers about what they could write, if they wanted their book to fit into a specific genre. Rules they enforced by turning back most works from new writers who's works did not conform to their ideas of genre. The party line being: We have to know how to market this. Hence writers would get the rejection letter that, in escence, said, "I love this book, characters and plot, but I don't know what to do with it. We can't market it because it doesn't fit into any genre."
So, over the years, publishers and writers (with publishers having the upper hand) maipulated their writing until it was almost formulaic. A heroine in a Romance Novel couldn't do brave acts A, B, and C, and must be either 1, a clinging vine, 2, a bitch, or 3, become a damsel in distress, despite all of her obvious tallent, courage and skill, or words to that effect (not the specific abc's and 123's but the dictation of what can and can't be written in a certain genre.
Then, when challenged, they had another party line, "publishers don't determine genre, readers do." Of course, if you remember, that's maybe true indirectly, readers choose how someone markets a book to them by buying the one's they like and passing on the one's they didn't. Readers can't buy books that never make it to the shelves and publishers would only "take chances" on established authors (That had a following), if they ever tried something knew. New things represented business risks.
As jaded as I may sound about that, what I've mentioned so far, I'm kind of at a point of acceptance of. If you want to succeed at business, minimize risk, control the develpment and creation of "product" so you can limit yourself to successful lines and you'll do well. Taking chances on unproven work could hurt you.
What I'm at odds with is the insidious arguement they offer to devoide themselves of any responsibility for things that show up in books (like racisim, gender-bias-disparagment, religious beliefs etc. Their process actively manipulates everything, yet they take responsibility for nothing and blame it on writers and readers (either nobody's writing it...because they already have been told that the publisher won't take something new...or nobody will read it (nobody's buying books like those) because the publishers aren't making them available.) That's just dishonest. They get away with that because it's become an accepted industry wide "best practice" if you want to make money.)
Their like the CIA, force somebody else to conform to your needs, then, if anyone complains, blame somebody else for your choices. In inteligence forces they call this "maintaining plausible deniability."
The truth is, that in ten years, Amazon.com, Barnes and Noble (through the Nook) will completely change the nature of publishing. Publishers are going to need to change the way they think.
I propose that a good estabilshed publishing company has the tools and can provide the professional feed back needed to make any quality written work polished, crisp, error free and professional. That's done by helpful, editing and critiquing by people at professional levels that exceed the common reader and writer.
If they dropped marketing, went with e-books, and devoted themselves to simply polishing and professionalizing any work (for a propper fee/commision/insentive/percentage) they could improve what's available to read accross the boards. Alas, they have yet to choose ot use their Jedi powers for good.
Now, with the advent of the e-book and e-readers, and thank god for Amazon.com feeling more comfortable taking risks that establishing norms, self-pub books by indipendent authors are at an all time high and making an all time record amount of money.
for example: my mother found out that, under the best conditions, she might get about 15-25 cents per book in roylaties. Now, if I sell my book on Amazon.com for 99 cents, and amazon takes their percentage (20%?) My mother would still make about 3 times as much money per title (assuming equal sales) than if she sold books through an established publisher like Harlequin. And Amazon's website makes marketing easier, more afordable, and in many ways, free, to the indie writer.
So now, we have upheaval in the publishing world. Indie books are establishing new, acceptable, criteria in genre's and books are coming out so fast that nobody can properly catagorize them.
Now to bring this back to the question at hand...
I believe that publishers, and writers should not worry about classifying and catagorizing books int genres. Let book sellers and readers do that. With the modern internet based e-book system they don't really have to. This would mean readers (like us) catagorize what we read, through our own methods either as an organized group, or as an individual and therefore, what Lady D, and Mike are saying is right, makes sense, and fits..."Everyone will probably have their own definitions of what fits a genre and what doesn't." and that, is how it should be.
So as a group, we agree what's in and what's out, but, that doesn't reflect individuals personal belief about what's in and out of a specific genre or catagory of books, nor does anyone or any group have to conform to any set standard of defined genre's (unless your a bookseller or a library, and even then it should be up to the organization).
It means there is as much room for people who catagorize books based on certain finite criteria (if it has this this and this without that and that, it's a...) and people like me, who tend to classify reads by the emotions inspired when reading it. (what shows up on my emotional radar.)
but that's me.
(For the record, I'm with Mike. I don't classify "LOrd of the Rings" as A/A, nor the Shanara stories, etc. I do classify Connan and the Mars Books etc. (I've always thought of adventure books as a "really old school" genre that includes 20,000 leagues under the sea, Tarzan and Barsoom. Action books as more along the lines of modern espionage stories and books like James Rollins, Clive Cussler, etc...but that's just me.)
Having said that, what we notice is often helpful in how we classify. I do get the same feeling when I read about the battle of Helm's Deep as I did the wonderful and exciting battles in Ice Hunt. So, I acknowledge the A/A appeal that is present in those books, but, because of the rest of the content, I do not surrender them to any genre outside of Fantasy.
Agian, that's just me.
Sorry for the long email. If you suffer from insomnia, take this to bed with you, read it...you can thank me for helping you sleep later.
You both captured perfectly what I was trying to get at with some extra additions on top! Great thoughts.
Hugh, that was beautiful.Small point : whem you publish on Amazon under $2.99, your royalty drops from 70% to 30%.
Readers do a good job of classifying books in my experience. I cannot classify my books in any one genre but readers have put them in the Amazon top 100 on several occasions in A/A, Contemporary Fiction, General Fiction, and even Humor. No publisher would have targeted all of those categories and they would not have published anything that did not fit nicely into one.
There is a big fight for control going on. Traditional publishing used to dcitate what could be in a genre along with what would be sold AND what would be a best seller. Nowadays, readers are finding the niche they like through search engines on retail sites. That drives publishers nuts and they are fighting that battle instead of adapting. The revolution you speak of in a few years is happening now.
Personally, I like choice and that is what I see more of these days.
Splitter
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And at 2.99, for my mothers books, which were priced around 4.99-7.99 new, so the reader would get a significant price cut at 2.99 and my mother would still make more than 3 times as much per book at roughly 90cents a copy vs. 15-25 cents. Nevermind that there is material, labor, or shipping costs either once the final product is ready.
The way the internet works, and these guys spy on every trans... I mean, follow how people are trending, for a small fee, an add can be developed targeting those people who like my mother's books that shows up on every other web page...no extra costs there, or very little relative to other forms of advertising.
If I owned a book story, I think I'd open an instant cyber-cafe' (complete with coffee) a small library of popular hard cover and paper back books and a service where you tell me what book you want in hard cover, paperback or trade paperback and order it through us, it'll show up at your house in a couple of weeks.
That way we only prent what we order.
The beauty of this is, that now, the writer really will be ultimately responsible for what he writes in his books. If he writes a sexist or racist book, we know where to go to give a kick in the gnads. And when we do it, we don't run into a corporate buzz saw defending them because he/she writes books to a code that devalues female participation in life and over values sex set up by archaic formulaic practices that publishign companies are still clinging too.
but, that's just me.
Kudos to Splitter - SO well said!I've got to put my 2-cents in here on genre definitions.
As a READER, these are the baseline points I think of in classifying my favorite genres:
A/A - Requires 1. unusual locales (that's what makes it an Adventure); 2. Plot based around treasure and/or medicine/item that will greatly change things for the better or worse (that's where the Action comes in). Any story that is based around treasure is auto-defaulted to A/A in my mind.
THRILLER - Someone and/or something is at risk, and scary, dangerous, sometimes exciting stuff happens in the course of getting from A to Z. No treasure is involved. This genre runs gamut from Lee Child (slight to extreme military/spy influences) to King (Stange/horror)and Koontz (Strange/What Ifs).
ROMANTIC SUSPENSE - My dearest wish for this sub-genre is that publishers would stop demanding the Happily Ever After of man/woman at the end of the story cuz we all KNOW we can enjoy suspensful, exciting stories with solid dollops of spot-on romance w/o needing or wanting an HEA at the end. To me, that's the only thing holding this genre back - the blind pigeon hole of publishing.
PARANORMAL - Supernatural elements (magic, ESP, ghosts, the unexplainable) but the people and the action happens in the REAL WORLD (present or past, time travel okay).
FANTASY - If the story has any characters that aren't human, animals that don't occur naturallly and/or is based in a made-up world it auto-defaults here for me.
The cool thing is that at 2.99, she will make more than 2 bucks per copy. That's the cool thing about being self pubbed: you make more per sale. And you make it now, not when a publisher/agent decides to pay you.It's a control freak's dream lol. The downside is that everything is on you and it is VERY difficult to get noticed by readers unless you get lucky.
Gosh...owning a bookstore is a long held dream of mine. I have no idea how to do it and make money today.
Btw, there are some well known authors/series that cater to themes such as rape and are filled with "soft racism" that fans defend to the end. It boggles the mind.
Sheri, l'll bet that you could punch in your criteria and find things you like in short order. Then you could read the reviews from other readers (not NY literary critics) and find books you want to spend time reading. That is just amazing when you think about it.
No betyer time to be a reader than right now. But, we have to develop our personal search skills because, admitedly, there is also more junk out thete today than ever before.
Sorry..I love talking about this stuff. I am a geek.
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Danielle The Book Huntress , Literary Adrenaline Junkie
(last edited Mar 16, 2012 10:06AM)
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So maybe it's just fine that romantic suspense stays pigeonholed. And some readers don't like romance at all, so at least they know how to avoid it if the books are marketed as a romance first and suspense second. As an escapist reader, I like to see a happy ending. I know I'm not alone in that.
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As for making money in the current market with a book store? I have no idea either, but, giving it some thought, we are touching on an old day dream of mine, I believe that if you took the best that Quisnos has to offer, combined it with a good Starbucks (or Dunkin Donoughts if you prefer) and set them up in a way to make money. I'd control the setting to make it look nice and comfortable (like those big overstuffed chairs you trip on at Barnes and Nobels if your stargazing at the top shelves). Add what the italians call a "Coperto" which is basically a house fee for using the table maybie a "Servizio" which is a fee for taking care of the table clothes and dishes, then adopted the Italian attitude towards dining. It's your table until you leave...enjoy!
Then, you buy a signal booster and your own server so you become a wi-fi hotspot. Buy a bunch of wi-fi only kindles/nooks and other e-readers. subscribe to e-based periodicals like news papers etc, and let your customers borrow your e-readers free. Set up the tables for mostly parties of 1 or 2. go to the nearest college and siphon up every required reading list you can get your hands on and buy a free copy for your store (e-books).
Keep one large room that can be made to look very nice for reading/book discussion groups (host them yourself) and if your lucky Q&A and book signing events with established authors.
initially write off all the book related stuff and focus on the resteraunt side of things. If you really want a chance at making money, get a liquor liscense and sell beer and wine by the glass.
The idea is, if the resteraunt makes money, you make money. The book stuff is just a way to get regular customers, who will stay for a while and drink lots of 2-3 dollar specailty coffee drinks that only cost a quarter to make. A good book reader, with a coffee habbit might be good for a coffee or two and a large specialty iced tea.
Oh, and purchase all of the free books you can find to keep your initial stock looking full. This way it would be working with amazon and indie writers who give the free books to attract people to paid books. Maybe cut a deal with them to adverstize in your store?
but, as much fun as that sounds...it has more chance of winding up in my first book than paying for my next one. (at this rate, with no books out there, that's not very likely on either count).
I have no idea if that makes money or throws good after bad. Too many moving parts for paticality probably.
Oh...and about the publishing companies.... Publishers have the machine to make polished professional works. That machine has to be opened to the indie pub guy as a service for fee/payment/commission/etc.
Indie pubs tend to have a lot of simple print mistakes and editing issues that books from established publishers do not. These are not content or story quality mistakes, well, mostly not. These are simple things to fix.
This is where we can see something publishers have to offer. Professional Editing. For some reason their editing-smoothing process is way better than an Indie writer who pays a couple of bucks to an English Major in graduate school to find his spelling and grammar mistakes.
They may not be doning anything an editor for hire isn't doing, but their experience and skill is far and above anything outside of the industry. They might also be able to give advice about what is marketable and what is not (thus leaving the writer in control of the process, but, giving him a fair assessment).
See, give me ten minutes, a computer and a big cup of coffee and I can fix all the worlds problems...I'm a legend in my own mind...
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The Pirate Ghost, Long John Silvers Wanna-be
(last edited Mar 16, 2012 10:30AM)
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Yea, as grumpy as I am, I still like someone to win and give hope in the end. Empower the little people, keep love alive that sort of thing. Us curmudgeons have to have a crusty exterior to protect our sappy goey insides.
I mean, please catch the bad guy, don't let the bad guy win, that sort of thing.
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Danielle The Book Huntress , Literary Adrenaline Junkie
(last edited Mar 16, 2012 10:39AM)
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The reason why romance fans cling to romance so hard is because they like the idea that love does conquer all. Take that away, and all the struggles seem utterly meaningless.
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The reason why romance fans cling to romance so hard is because they like the idea that love does conquer all. Take that away, and all the struggles se..."
Yea, I don't care what you do to the people in the book along the way,...okay I do care, but, i'm willing to leave a lot of options on the table... if there is not a way to save the world, let love or justice triumph in the end, then the rest is just a meaningless struggle. Dark is fine, racy, risque, ugly, noir all of that works, if, in the end, someone who needs to win, does.
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The good news, Hugh, is that a lot of editors and others that were in traditional publishing are now hanging put their own shingle because they got downsized.Admitedly, line editing and even continuity are problems for self pubbed books as a whole. But, in my anectdotal experience, such problems are cropping up more often in traditionally published books these days. Dance with Dragons had more than its share of errors and Raymond Fiest just got fried by glaring errors in a recent book. Even Butcher, a favorite of mine, has some errors in Ghost Story (his do not bother me as most would only be recognized by the retentive).
There is the gap you mention, but I think it is narrowing as publishers trim staffs and more editors are taking on outside projects.
As one swimming in the self pubbed sea, I wish there was some sort of quality control because that would go a long way to diminishing the stigma thay all self pubbed books are junk. It is sad commentary when reviews state that there were few/no errors in a self pubbed book because that shows that they are very much expected. That damage is self inflicted because some do not believe in editing.
PS....i just hate sad endings. I can appreciate them when done well, but that does not mean I like them. I even like the Sopranos ending...eventually...
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This is so interesting - I love this board! Today I've learned one of my first board lessons - written info does not necessarily read as intended (okay, duh).
So, please allow me to clarify my earlier comment about Romantic Suspense Genre and the intent behind the HEA statement. I was speaking in terms of the Hero and Heoine having to 'hook up permanently and ride off into the sunset together'.
I absolutely agree that the hero and heroine should come out at the end better off as individuals than they started (never dead!). I am just disappointed that the emphasis is put so strongly on the relationship of these two people needing to be a permanent thing at the end. Romance in real life isn't necessarily like that, not from first love to the last breath, unless you're stubborn or lucky.
As a RS READER, I think it's fine, more interesting even, for the story/romance to have a 'what-if/maybe ending', or the relationship may end but have been an unforgettable, life-changing experience for the hero or heroine that helped them grow in some way.
There are other sub genres we could label stories with strong A/A-Suspense and equal parts Romance under but RS is easiest for me. My earlier email was meant to give folks on this board a look at how I perceive books, not meant to tell others they should see things that way. Hope that helps redeem me somewhat.
Many thanks to everyone who participates here, I am learning a lot!
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Today I've learned one of my first board lessons - written info does not necessarily read as intended (okay, duh).
So, please allow me to clarify my e..."
"As a RS READER, I think it's fine, more interesting even, for the story/romance to have a 'what-if/maybe ending', or the relationship may end but have been an unforgettable, life-changing experience for the hero or heroine that helped them grow in some way.
I actually accept this as potentially entertaining too, when explained the way you just eplained it. I'm all about good growth. I think it's the "end on an "uptick" theme that I like. I think it's trickier if the romance ends so I'd have to read it first, but sure...a relationship that ends, but leaves the protaganist or the two main characters some how stronger, or more able to heal would be a good twist for me.
And, I'm not in the "must have a romance for me to enjoy the book," catagory, but, I kind of like em...(Cough, hack, cough) I mean... in a curmudgeonly "...if you have to do that lovey dovey thing anyway..." (cough).
ah heck!... real men don't eat quishe! and other masogonistic male egotistical rambling that helps you forget I'm the guy who said "Yay" for romance.
I got a name and a reputation to uphold!
Consider my response very grumpy!
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Humm...oh well. Anyway, I particularly care for romance, but enjoy.
Excuse me now. I have to go clean my guns, butcher a cow, care for the livestock and not cry even when it hurts. (hocks and spits in the dust at boots).
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(P-{D>)
Action/Adventure Aficionados
Books mentioned in this topic
Subterranean (other topics)Ice Hunt (other topics)
The Burning Sky (other topics)
Black Order (other topics)
The Judas Strain (other topics)
More...
I was curious to find out what books (type, author, series etc.) people see belonging to this genre.
There is only one, hard fast rule:
1) All books, ideas and thoughts are welcome. This string is about including ideas, not excluding them. The bottom line is that it is the "Individual's decision and understanding about what is included in this genre" regardless of majority opinion. Everyone has the right to see books and stories as they do, without worrying about some arbitrary classifacation criterion for inclusion.
Discussion about the reasons for including a certain style or group of books may be valuable in defining what we are talking about and guiding discussion. What ever you think, I say "bring it." Like the Pirate's Code "Their really more guidlines than law anyway."
Any other rule would simply state "See rule number one." (excepting of course the general rules about respectful posting etc that should govern all discussion on any of the Good Reads boards.)