Should have read classics discussion

This is the discussion thread for the book Père Goriot. Going to try and start in the middle of September.

Vicky, hopefully my copy will be in by next week at the library! Is that ok with you? I put on the bookshelf, that it will start on the 15th, but we can start it at anytime!

I'm here! You must have thought I abandoned you, sorry! I was in your country, visiting with the ocean (Maine), I was supposed to have wireless Internet in the suite but we never managed to get it to work so I was truly disconnected for a while. I am back and ready to read, I'll start Le Père Goriot tomorrow!

That's ok! Did you enjoy your trip? Sounds rather relaxing being disconnected! I found a copy on line, so I will try to start this weekend! Still trying to finish To Kill a Mockingbird.

We had a wonderful time, thank you, we needed this little vacation as a family and we're lucky enough to have beautiful weather! My two loved ones are ocean lovers and even though it was cold they couldn't resist going in.

I will be reading both books silmulteniously, I still have some time before I go back to work!

Brrr, the north Atlantic in September-Brrr! I bet that woke them up!

You've no idea! I was a coward, didn't go further than the knees!

Is anybody else joining us for the buddy read?

Vicky wrote: "You've no idea! I was a coward, didn't go further than the knees!

Is anybody else joining us for the buddy read?"

I haven't heard of anyone else, but I could be wrong.

According to the notes in my edition, Balzac said that Goriot's story was true, it is considered possible but has never been verified or denied to satisfaction. It is believed he could have become aware of such a drama during his internships in 1817 or 1818 at the notary Passez or at the attorney Guillonnet-Merville. There is also the fact that he had a landlord (from 1830 on Cassini street) who was a wheat merchant, just like Goriot. It is not known for sure if he inspired Balzac for Goriot or if he served as a model for the character.

I find it interesting to know that there might have been a real Goriot.

By the way, I read it 18 years ago (June of 93 is the date I wrote down in my copy), so it's almost as if I was reading it for the first time, it's too long ago for me to remember in details.

Alright, I finally have the book from the library in my hands, so I can finally start reading it. I think that my mom is going to start it with us also, if we can figure out how to get it downloaded onto her Kobo. It is there, but not there if you can understand that!
I'm excited to find that this might be a true story, how fun is that?

I have really enjoyed the set up for this book. The descriptions of the dining room, kitchen, well, the entire block for that matter has been wonderful! I can almost smell the "boarding house" smell. I wonder if it smells vaguely like a nursing home?

I hope your Mom can read it with us! I'm not far along, I hardly read this week!

His descriptions are great! In French, he does say that it smells like an "hospice" which could translate as a nursing home indeed. In English they've chosen to use hospital instead ? (an odd choice, my French-English dictionary translate as an old people's home...but the use of the word was different back then, I'm thinking perhaps hospital was the closest the translator could get to the reality of what an "hospice" was? It was an old people's home yes, but also an orphan's house an a home for people who suffered from incurable diseases... So maybe the choice of hospital isn't that odd even though that's not quite it?) Here's the quote:

“The damp atmosphere sends a chill through you as you breathe it; it has a stuffy, musty, and rancid quality; it permeates your clothing; after-dinner scents seem to be mingled in it with smells from the kitchen and scullery and the reek of a hospital.”

I also loved the description of Mrs Vauquer! It's like in his descriptions Balzac uses all our senses: look, smell, touch are widely present in the descriptions and I can easily imagine what would the sounds be like and I feel I know what the food would taste like. I find his descriptions brings us, readers, right there by using our senses.

My translation says:
"This room gives off a smell for which our language has no special word: it can only be described as a boardinghouse smell. It smells stuffy, mouldy, rancid: it is chilly, clammy to breathe, permeates one's clothing: it leaves the stale taste of a room where people have been eating: it stinks of backstairs, scullery, workhouse."
Quite a bit different! This is going to be fun reading this with someone who can read it in French and give much better translations!
Mrs. Vanquer sounds like one of the ladies that would sit at the bottom of the guillotine and knit while the blade did its dirty deed. Balzac seems to be able to describe scenes with wonderful clairity, but with few words. By now Dickens would probably be into the fourth chapter! Ha!

Wow! I knew there was a good reason why I try to read in the original language if possible! Quite a difference!

I love your comment on Mrs Vauquer! That's exactly it!

Flaubert (Madame Bovary, I see you've read it) who was struggling at every word he wrote, used to envy Balzac because he was so prolific and yet his writing quality didn't suffer for it at all, he was a little jealous because it seemed so easy for Balzac. I think it shows in the writing, how easily it flows that it wasn't a painful process for him or maybe that's just my perception but there's a lightness (as opposed to heavy and dense) in his writing and description, and not light in a pejorative way either, light as in it makes the flows easier.

Think you're wright about Dickens too!

Poor Goriot. People are ganging up on him already and the story is barely started. Fave quote for today: "One of the most odious habits of such Lilliputian minds is to assume that others are as petty as they are."

Great quote! Poor Goriot indeed! How do you find Rastignac? I find it delightful how he keeps "making mistakes" in his first tries at being part of the "high society". So many unknow rules for a foreigner, he's like a lost little lamb at this point.

I find Balzac so "efficient" in his writing, in painting portraits that seem so accurate in the human traits he wishes to put forward, in manipulating the reader as well. We feel for the characters exactly what he wants us to feel, he leaves no room for ambivalence. I guess, now that I'm older, I understand better how Flaubert felt when he was jealous of Balzac, I now see how efficient he can be in very little words.

He's painted a thourough picture of every character that inhabits the Vauquer pension, it is very clear for me what each and every character is about, yet, as I was reading all his description, part of me kept thinking that he introduces too many characters before he even starts telling the story, I kept thinking I would get mixed up in the characters but, no, they've all been described so precisely, yet with economy of words, that I can't mix them up, even if I'm reading 3 novels at the same time. I hadn't read Balzac in many years and I have to admit I'm amazed how skilled he is...

Rastignac is an interesting character. He is like a compilation of the "growing up" that people do in their early 20's. He suddenly realizes all of the sacrifices that his family has done for him, yet still has the naivety of someone who has no experience in the world, yet thinks that he does. Does that make sense? He seems to be on that precipice of young and old. I hope I don't have to cringe too much at his mistakes.
Efficient is a wonderful word for Balzac. Some authors seem to introduce a mass of characters and for most of the book, I have no clue who they are. These characters are much more rich and individual in my mind. I also realized that most of the "aristocrat" names are part of the world that Balzac created in his other books. So, do some characters show up in other books?

It makes perfect sense Lisa. He is at a point in his life that will define the man he will become!

Yes, some characters show up in other books! This novel is the first where Balzac did that consciously with a project for his entire production past and future in mind.

Sorry about the lag in reading. I started to read other stuff and got sidetracked. How many other books are there?

Good question, I'll have to research that one, I know there's a lot but have no idea how much. I haven't been reading much either, my little one is sick with a bad cold, fever and all. All she wants is to be in my arms so I'm not much further along.

Oh, I'm so sorry about your little one. I hope that she is feeling better. I must say though, it is nice when they just want to huddle and cuddle with you all day, it seems to only happen when they are sick though. Hopefully, no one else gets it either, that is always a drag.
I read about 20 pages last night and must say that Rastignac is making me cringe. He is so out of his element. He is like a minnow swimming with the sharks!

Did some research on GR and it said that The Human Comedies make up about 100 stories and plays written by Balzac over his lifetime. Wow!

Lisa wrote: "Oh, I'm so sorry about your little one. I hope that she is feeling better. I must say though, it is nice when they just want to huddle and cuddle with you all day, it seems to only happen when th..."

Thank you! She still has fever this evening, non-stop for 48 hours and she's losing her voice but still she manages to be in a good mood! I admit there is a part of me that just loves holding her, I hope she doesn't grow out of that too soon! My hubby is sleeping in her bed and she's sleeping with me until she's better.

Wow indeed! I knew Balzac was prolific but didn't quite expect it to be that much.

I find it interresting that paternity is a strong theme in "To kill a mockingbird", in "The yearling" and in "Le Père Goriot". Maternity, in my experience, seems to be addressed more often in literature but curiously right now in my (our) reading it's paternity that seems to take center stage...

What a interesting catch! i never noticed that. The father's have different roles in their children's lives in TKAM and PG, I have to plead ignorance on TY, I did not read it. It is interesting how the children in each story treat their father and show their respect and disrespect.

How innocent is Rastignac? Is he honest with himself or closing his eyes on his own failings? Goriot's daughters are painted as egoistical (among other things) in their bleeding of their father's fortune. I'm not convinced Rastignac is entirely above egoism when he asks his mother and his sisters separately and secretly (from each other and from his father) for more money? He excuses himself by saying that since the future of his family rests entirely on his shoulders, he must succeed not only professionally but in society as well. He is really that innocent and well intentioned, that detached from his personal interest? At this point I'm not convinced and it's been so long I don't remember, what do you think?

I agree, and I wonder if he does not begin to realize his own egoism after receiving his mother's letter and reminding himself of Goriot melting his own silver. I just have this bad feeling that he will lose all his money and his poor family will end up in the workhouse. I also do no trust Vautrin, he seems wolfish to me.
Fave quote for the day: " Better wage war on men than quarrel with your wife." :)

Our bad feelings are pretty much the same, I really don't remember much of the story. Vautrin is Goriot's alter ego I think, he is also a father figure but he represents all that is opposite to Goriot. it's already clear that he deals in suspicious things, coming back to the house late at night, etc. He seems to want to take Rastignac under his wing and teach him a thing or two, at least influence him.

Great quote! You have a talent for picking them out!

Oh yea, he is just like Goriot's alter ego. At least, he did try to dissuade Rastignac from getting into duals. Maybe, for some convoluted reasons but hopefully that idea will take hold.
I think I need to have a refresher course on my French history. After the revolution, Napolean took over correct? Then he was defeated at Waterloo and exiled to Corsica right? After that, did France have a democracy or did they still have a king? It seems that the wealthy citizens are not scared about losing their heads so attitudes must have changed at this time correct?

You have it right then monarchy had another go after Napoleon (Louis 18 for eleven years then Charles ten for five years then another revolution then Louis Philippe, etc...).

Thank you! There must have been some lingering resentment for Napolean and his sympathizer since that is the reason his son-laws refused to let Goriot in the house. Or did I get that wrong?

You have that right ! That was also present in "The count of Monte-Cristo", the resentment for the sympathizers with the change of systems, it had a big part to play in the fact that Dantès was imprisoned. It is a very common theme with a lot of novels that take place during that time.

I had forgotten that part about TCOMC. After reading last night, I must say that Parisian high society at that time was rather tolerant of extra-marital affairs. Maybe, that was why the Victorians tend to find Balzac scandalous? I laughed out loud at the part when Rastignac was at the opera with his cousin and he finally gets to meet Madame Delphine. The woman had such a typical female response to a pretty woman, she cut her down. I laughed thinking yep some things don't change!

Lisa wrote: "I had forgotten that part about TCOMC. After reading last night, I must say that Parisian high society at that time was rather tolerant of extra-marital affairs. Maybe, that was why the Victorian..."

LOL tolerant is a nice way to put it, you're too kind! Now I feel mean cause I would have said depraved!

I found myself laughing out loud too! It seems a pretty woman is almost always a threat to another woman, I should find this sad but it's too ridiculous, I can't help laughing.

Rastignac seems to be torn between what he wants to do and his ego...he's full of good intentions but seems to forget them quickly.

I went out of town for the weekend and just picked this back up last night, and must say that Rastignac seems to digging a huge hole for himself. I figured he would start going into debt eventually.
Oo, and Vautrin is just vile. I wonder if he really is the "death-dodger" that they mentioned?

Vicky, I was wondering if Balzac wrote as a general commentary about French life or was he motivated by certain aspects of it? I mean Collins created a heroine in The Woman in White because of how he perceived woman's treatment during his time, just wondering if you knew much about Balzac's politics or views?

I feel the noose tightening around Rastignac.

Goodness.I'm about half way through and you get the feeling that nothing good can happen to Rastignac. This is going to be a tragedy, isn't it? If something else happens, I will be very surprised. Every single character is dreadfully flawed. Even Rastignac's family. Why Why why did they give him so much money?

Manike wrote: "Goodness.I'm about half way through and you get the feeling that nothing good can happen to Rastignac. This is going to be a tragedy, isn't it? If something else happens, I will be very surprised. ..."

Agreed! Why would they do that? I just despised him for taking advantage of their kindheartedness and goodwill. From the way things are shaping up I think you are right and it will be a tragedy for all involved.

I finished the book yesterday. At first it was difficult for me to get into it. I guess that the set up was too slow for me. But after the introduction of the place and main characters was done I was hooked.

I really liked the way the characters were portrayed. There was no black and white. Vautrin, Delphine even Anastasie all of them got moments where you could feel sympathetic to their fate despite of their conduct.

A couple of things I noticed:

(view spoiler)[Rastignac for quite a long time agonizes over Vautrin's offer and once he accepts it he changes his mind almost immediately and wants to prevent the duel. Yet after the deed is done and the murder takes place he scarcely thinks about it afterwards. He reflects at length on the morality (or lack of) of conduct of Goriot's daughters and their husbands. Yet he doesn't spare a thought for a youth whose death he helped to bring about.

Did you notice the allusions to Vautrin's homosexuality? What do you think was Balzac's position on that subject?
(hide spoiler)]

I finished it yesterday as well. I would have to agree with you about the pace of the book, it was slow in the beginning but it really picked up after halfway through.
I had a hard time feeling sorry for Goriot's daughters. Maybe, I was tainted by the ending.

*Spoiler*
Rastignac was not the wonderful idea of a hero was he? He was very narrow focused and very self-centered. He did not focus at all on the murder or his supposed love for the murdered man's sister. Especially considering how the book ends, his lack of empathy for the murdered man is interesting.
In my book, I had explanatory notes in the back and it talked about the one quote about how Vautrin did not like women. Quote:"this remark, coming so soon after mention of the young Italian whose crime Vautrin took on himself, descreetly confirms his sexual orientation." I also wonder if him being a convict was an allusion also? I wonder if Balzac had sympathies toward that subject? Vautrin was a criminal, but the boarding house residents liked him and even stuck up for him after his betrayal, he became almost a cult hero for them.
That is another aspect of the story that was interesting. How the reactions to V's betrayal was so hateful toward M. Michonneau and Poirot. That whole dynamic was fun to read, since it made me think about informants and snitches.

Lisa wrote: "*Spoiler*
Rastignac was not the wonderful idea of a hero was he? He was very narrow focused and very self-centered. He did not focus at all on the murder or his supposed love for the murdered man's sister. "

I agree. I also noticed his lack of remorse regarding his conduct to Victorine. What I find almost unbelievabe is that he not only didn't have the decency to contact her and break off the engagement but also he carried on like she never existed.

Lisa wrote: "In my book, I had explanatory notes in the back and it talked about the one quote about how Vautrin did not like women. Quote:"this remark, coming so soon after mention of the young Italian whose crime Vautrin took on himself, descreetly confirms his sexual orientation."

In hindsight I thought that it explained the strange fondness Vautrin seemed to have for Rastignac. (He put up with a lot when it came to the student.)

That remark about Vautrin not liking women came after Michonneau suggested that a "pretty woman" (prostitute) could much more easily find out whether Vautrin had the TF brand on his shoulder or not. I found interesting that the detective's reply didn't produce any reaction from either Michonneau or Poiret.

My other favorite part was when the people were discussing Vautrin's red hair and they said that he is either all good or all bad. Being a natural redhead, I thought that was funny!

I agree about Vautrin "strange fondness" for Rastignac could have been motivated by a attraction to the young student. R. seemed to vex V. many, many times.

In my book, there's a list of characters and Balzac's books where they appear. I'm tempted to pick up Scenes from a Courtesan's Life which has most of the characters from Pere Goriot or The Deputy of Arcis which reveals Rastignac's progress after PG and his political career.

I was wondering if some of these characters showed up somewhere else. I will have to put those on my TR pile. It would be interesting to see where they go from here. Thanks for the info!

You're welcome.

I've just found out that The Deputy of Arcis was finished by Charles Rabeau after Balzac's death. There are minor inconsistencies regarding some of the characters (e.g. Vautrin has a daughter) and therefore the book is not considered canon. I still might read it, there's supposed to be a political subplot and I'm all for political intrigues and schemes.

As for Scenes from a Courtesan's Life following characters from Pere Goriot appear: Jacques Collins alias Vautrin, Bibi-Lupin (the detective who called himself Gordureau), Baron Nucingen, Delphine Nucingen, Rastignac, Bianchon, Poiret and Michonneau (now married) and Marquis d'Ajuda Pinto.

Nice research! I will try to find Scenes at my library. It would be nice to see what happens to all those people. Maybe, we could do another buddy read of that one some other time?

Lisa wrote: "Nice research! I will try to find Scenes at my library. It would be nice to see what happens to all those people. Maybe, we could do another buddy read of that one some other time?"

I would love that. Just let me know when you're ready to start. In the meantime I have tons of books on my to-read list, so no need to hurry.

I'm afraid my pile will actually become an avalanche soon, but maybe next year sometime! Woohoo!