Jane Austen discussion

Dear Willougby - and don't forget his aunt, Mrs. Smith, Eliza Williams and Sophia Grey!

John Willougby was just like any other young man of the time who was dependent on rich relations for their living. Just rich enough to move in high circles but poor enough to be beholding to the aunt or a good alliance with a girl of good breeding and a good dowery. He was handsome and what would be called a rake. He had his share of lovers, those he slept with and those he didn't. He enjoyed dallying with a pretty face or two and Marianne was just one of the many, but she turned out to be far more to him than any other. He had no profession and truth be told, probably didn't want one, although he had his estate 30 mile from the Palmers. If he were a good landowner, he would have spent his time on his estate and less in the arms of women, gambelling and drinking, whatever young men did then. He got an honorable young innocent girl pregnant in a resort town, comparable to going to Florida for spring break and having one night stands. He soon forgot all about her and moved on to Marianne. He literally was her knight in shinning armor when he saved her after her stumble. In the movie, he read her poetry and took her on wild rides thru the country and whispered sweet nothings into her ear and cut a lock of her hair and kissed it and then put it into his pocket. She was instantly in love with him. What was a pleasant flirtation and passing of time to him turned into a love for him, as far as he was able to love anyone. His past caught up with him and he ran away and married the first rich girl with 30,000 pounds. Miss Grey. He broke Mariannes heart and almost caused her death. I have to say that she stalked him though in London. He should have known they would meet although he avoided her. That horrible night at the ball where he snubbed her like a stranger was unforgivable. The night at the Palmers when he got drunk and came bounding in explained a lot. It was his wife that dictated the awful letter and send the lock of hair back to her without being able to adequately explain things to her. He took the coward's way out. He was even persuasive enough to have Elinore understand and maybe forgive him. Even though he loved Marianne, she couldn't cure his fear of poverty. Mrs Jennings once said that she hoped that his wife would plague his heart out and I think she did. Although in the end of the book, Willoughby was not altogether unhappy with her. Miss Grey was not even allowed to have a small part in the story but only as a means to an end. A cure for his money problems. He probably had turned on his charms with her in order for her to care for him enough to marry him. Her parents had to believe he was sincere in order to let her marry him. He did have no money. They had to believe that he would make their daughter happy or they wouldn't have parted with the 30k pounds. She probably was acting out of hurt when she dictated the letter to Marianne. She was probably a little like Fanny. I do think that he should have been made to marry Miss Williams and the baby could have a father. I think she was truly the one who was hurt most by him and wasn't even given enough coverage in the book. Did he change? I speculate. I don't think he really changed. He was allowed to have everything he ever wanted. He was one of these persons who probably got their way in everything they did. He probably kept mistresses.

Denisa makes some really comment above, but I am still working through the novel, so I will start small :)

Do we remember, what was Willoughby's actual family makeup? Did he have brothers and sisters? Was it ever told? I didn't want to read back at this point.

I was just interested -- I believe it was said he would inherit both estates? But I didn't remember anything else.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say I like Willoughby. There it's out in the open. I think he was really in love with Marianne, and he knew he couldn't marry her because of her lack of fortune (terrible reason, true) and this was his way of breaking it off with her, not wanting to cause her much pain. I think the whole thing with Beth (Brandon?) is unpardonable, but it doesn't stop me from still liking him better than Col. Brandon, who I think is dull and boring with little life and excitement. When Willoughby came to talk to Elinor, and explain everything I felt he was a good guy at heart, unlike Whikham, and he was so much more fun to read about then Brandon. I think Marianne and Willoughby would have been a much better couple, and I don't think the marriage of Marianne and Brandon would've lasted. Frankly, I'm disappointed that Marianne ever married Col. Brandon altogether, though it did say she was happy with him at the end. Wiloughby, on the other hand, had to mope about the world in love with Marianne, married to some witch who makes him write nasty letters to Marianne.

Maggie wrote: "I'm going to go out on a limb and say I like Willoughby. There it's out in the open. I think he was really in love with Marianne, and he knew he couldn't marry her because of her lack of fortune (t..."

I don't know about Marianne and Willoughby being the better couple. In the long run, the goodness of Colonel Brandon would lead to a much happier life than one where Marianne had to worry about another affair and illegitimate child. Brandon would NEVER do that to her.

I too admit that I like Willoughby. How can you not be charmed by him? It seems there wasn't a female in existence who could. Even Elinor with all her sense is touched by him at the very end as he comes to explain. HOWEVER, would he have made a good husband for Marianne? No, I don't think so. I agree that he did love her (in his selfish way) and would to some extent regret her for the rest of his life. But Willoughby was weak in character. You see that in all he did throughout the novel-his pleasure seeking & his vices. Brandon loved Marianne in a true sense. A sacrificing kind of love that would last. And Marianne in turn came to love Brandon and that love would only grow as they matured in life.

SarahC wrote: "Denisa makes some really comment above, but I am still working through the novel, so I will start small :)

Do we remember, what was Willoughby's actual family makeup? Did he have brothers and sis..."

Sarah,
I don't believe there is any mention of Willoughby siblings. He has already inherited Combe Magna and expects to inherit Allenham--that is until Mrs. Smith finds out about his wayward ways.

It is interesting to contrast Willoughby with Edward. Both of them are dependent upon wealthy relations, both of them engage the affections of a poor girl. Edward however, wants a profession, Willoughby doesn't seem interested even in the obligations that Combe Magna and Allenham will entail. Edward's response to his misguided attachment to Lucy is to propose marriage, despite the fact that it will alienate him from his family and their support; Willougby dallies with Eliza and Marianne, but he would never alienate his aunt by marrying a woman with no fortune. There is some suggestion that Willoughby's aunt might have been reconciled to a marriage to Marianne, but there is something in Willoughby's character that speaks to a chronic discontent, the chronic need for stimulation that would not make him a good domestic candidate, IMHO.

I also though about the contrast between Edward and Willoughby. The more I read S&S I see all these interesting contrasts and comparisons. Austen is often about the effects of money on young women, but there are also strong messages of the effects of money on young men. Edward and Willoughby both come from monied families, and the expectation that they carry on a certain reputation of the family is a strong factor in the story. Both are restricted in their choices. Willoughy deals with this pressure poorly.

Even John Dashwood is making poor choices about money and family. Notice in the latter part of the book how he complains to Elinor, who he has given nothing, that he and Fanny have spent such amounts of money. Money they could freely spend, but at the price of severing family relations with his sisters.

Maggie wrote: "I'm going to go out on a limb and say I like Willoughby. There it's out in the open. I think he was really in love with Marianne, and he knew he couldn't marry her because of her lack of fortune (t..."

Maggie I think it is great that you brought this out. It is much what the story is about. I think the story leads us to ask that question -- Willoughby or Brandon? And a lot of what we think is based on what we see of them and what we know of their past.

And it is a good debate -- Willoughby seems more exciting, but where would he be in a crisis -- when you really needed help? And I think Marianne pretty boring actually (mainly due to her self-absorption), so, if Willoughby could have proved to be a faithful husband, would she really be the right woman for him? He has done people severely wrong in the past, but he might be more capable of true feeling than Marianne when it shakes down somewhere down the road.

John Willoughby is dependent on the goodwill and approbation of Mrs. Smith. We must remember that he is portrayed as being in debt and almost on the point of bankruptcy when he marries Miss Grey. So we can say that even though he may be genuinely in love with Marianne Dashwood, he is constrained to marry a girl who has hardly any money to save him. He needs money and marries Miss Grey to ease his financial situation. Miss Grey after all has 50,000 pounds which enables Willoughby to live again like a dandy. So, love is frequently underscored by financial considerations in Austen's novels.

Marjorie, since we are discussing the details of Sense and Sensibility here, other readers may not have read Emma. Could you go back and mark your details and outcome of the Emma plot with a SPOILER warning? We want to be fair to all Austen fans who might want to stumble upon plot spoilers of the other novels. Thanks very much.

Oh, thanks, Marjorie -- and look at the crazy way I worded my request. You guessed what I meant, thanks. I think we will always wind up talking about the other novels, especially in a group like this, I was just cautious about mentioning actual outcome of the story. Thanks very much, I appreciate it -- and having fun discussing with you here and in Victorians too.

SarahC wrote: "I also though about the contrast between Edward and Willoughby. The more I read S&S I see all these interesting contrasts and comparisons. Austen is often about the effects of money on young women..."

Well, John Dashwood doesn't really make poor choices about money - he actually makes good ones. When he gripes to Elinor about having to pay for a farm, she gets him to admit that he didn't pay more than it's worth, and that he could flip it for a profit. He allows himself to be argued out of doing anything material for his family, even out of buying them a present when they meet in London. His self-interest is contrasted with Brandon's - John and Fanny are willing to cut Edward loose when his engagement becomes public, whereas Brandon, a stranger, steps up to offer him a living.

Regarding my statement about John Dashwood, I disagree J, and perhaps you have misunderstood my comment, perhaps not. I believe he has made poor choices about money and family -- meaning, money in regards to family. For a even small percentage of his money each year, he could have shown family loyalty and responsibility (a very important thing in his day of course) toward his sisters -- at least until a time that they might marry. I really wasn't talking about any of his business decisions.

I agree that he might have done better to help support his sisters. You get the idea in that wonderful scene where Fanny and John are talking about what sort of help his father had expected of him that John allowed himself to be argued out of doing more.

Until all these different discussions came up, I had never really thought about the similarities between John Willoughby and John Dashwood, but they certainly are a couple of self-centered money-minded men, aren't they? I don't know if Willoughby would be as stingy but he isn't given the chance to show us that. I am reassured that the Dashwood women don't sit around grousing all the time about how much better life would be if only John would do his duty - they just press on and persevere. But I believe the perception of Willoughby's wealth, what with him having Combe Magna, certainly encouraged Marianne's affections, since her family were so destitute - whether she just wanted to no longer be poor herself or she wanted to help her whole family. If John Dashwood had done what his father asked of him, perhaps she would not have been so vulnerable to his charms. Perhaps she would have had more suitors, gone to London for the Season and met someone else. (No slight to Brandon, he's a wonderful man, but Marianne was so young and vibrant, it would be nice to see her with someone who could match that but who's not a rake...)

SPOILERS AHEAD*******************

John Dashwood's actions did send the girls toward a certain fate, for sure. It was so ironic how the social system worked -- and the money system actually: John was acceptable as husband for Fanny for his money, but Elinor was not acceptable for Edward. It really shows the restrictions of the class and the cruelty really. And as you said, John really left his sister unprotected as to meeting with a larger variety of men who would be good for her.

To live within the accepted norm of their class and their relatives, these men had to play it safe, didn't they? Although, I am not excusing them, I can see how it was a conflict for them. Of course, Edward rises to the occasion and makes a decision for honor. And Brandon is above all the social stuff because he has already had a taste of the pain and sorrow of how those decisions can end up -- and feels you should follow your heart. I guess that is why I do feel he is a good partner for Marianne -- I feel she will need to live up to him.

Notice how compassionate I am for the men this time around in my reading this story! I DO very much agree however that the Dashwood women should get applauded, like you said Melissa, for moving ahead with life with very little complaining.

But didn't John Dashwood receive quite a substantial amount of money from his mother's side? Therefore it would have upped the appeal for the financially minded Fanny

Maggie wrote: "Wiloughby, on the other hand, had to mope about the world in love with Marianne, married to some witch who makes him write nasty letters to Marianne. "

I don't think in the end that Willoughby goes around moping about his lost love. Austen does mention near the end that we shouldn't fool ourselves into thinking he spent the rest of his life pining for her - in fact she states that much of his life was taken up with all entertainment related pursuits.

it's been so long since i commented on this group, and i'm really sorry for it :)

*Spoilers Ahead* for The Mill on the Floss and Wuthering Heights as well

i finished the book a month ago, and i must say i did not forgive Willoughby in the end even if Elinor and Marianne did.
about the suitability of Marianne to Willoughby more than Col Brandon, i have to disagree, at first maybe yes Willoughby and Marianne were good together but it was a young passionate foolish love they shared, they didn't care about how the rest society saw them (and it does count), this kind of love would diminish after some years of marriage especially with Willoughby's deadly secret, he is not faithful or truthful, these r essential qualities in any real respectable man, regardless of his choice of money over love.
i also read something very interesting in the introduction by Tony Tanner in my pinguin edition, i'll quote here.
"What is certainly true is that Jane Austen does not undertake a full exploration of 'sensibility' -- as for instance George Eliot ( a great admirer of Jane Austen) did with Maggie Tulliver, another figure irreconcilably at odds with society because of her passional intensities. What George Eliot does have the courage to show is that Maggie can only die; constituted as she is there is literally no place for her in society. The same insight is to be found in the case of another of Marianne's descendants-- Cathy in Wuthering Heights. Jane Austen stops well short of this kind of investigation. And yet Marianne does, in effect, die. Whatever the name of the automaton which submits to the plans or its relations and join the social game it is not the real Marianne, in the devitalized symmetry of the conclusion something valuable has been lost."

so in a sense i feel that Marianne had to strip away from her passion a bit and become more mature in order to marry Col Brandon and in that sense she ended up much better than Willoughby

Thanks for that quote - it's really interesting. And I find this sentence quite heart-breaking: "Whatever the name of the automaton which submits to the plans or its relations and join the social game it is not the real Marianne, in the devitalized symmetry of the conclusion something valuable has been lost." :'(

I would like to think that some essence of the original Marianne is still there. Only that, after her experience and the lessons she has learned from them, she now knows better to curb her emotions than to let them overrule her. (Kind of like Jane in Jane Eyre. Passion isn't wrong, as long as you don't let it overrule you all the time.

Namida wrote - "i finished the book a month ago, and i must say i did not forgive Willoughby in the end even if Elinor and Marianne did."
Totally agree! nor can i! at all!!!!!

and Namida also wrote "about the suitability of Marianne to Willoughby more than Col Brandon, i have to disagree, at first maybe yes Willoughby and Marianne were good .... "
Totally agree again! i don't think their love would have lasted and i think it would be similar to Wickham and Lydia, (i know wickham is different and older) but on Lydia's side she will stop loving Wickham quite quickly and i think Willoughby and Marianne would have been simialr and well, i do like Brandon! For me, Brandon shows the importance of patience :)

I liked Willoughby. He and Marianne were truly in love, and he was really going to marry her, until the whole Beth thing from his past came up.
I do think that Austen uses Willoughby as a sort of model for a "bad" young man of the time - she does the same with Wickham and Mr. Elliot and the like - but what sets Willoughby apart is that he really still loved Marianne after they "broke up" and that he was worried sick during her illness. I think that the fact that he felt that he had to go and apologize to Elinor for his actions really shows a lot about his character. I do think that Marianne would have been happy with him, although, yes, he was impulsive, which could have been a bad trait in a husband.
Basically, I liked Willoughby, and I was sad that he turned out to be a total cad. :)

I'm not sure that Willoughby was worried sick about Marianne - he didn't really call on her or reply to her letters until after the incident at the ball.
Edward, too, was in a similar position but he still managed to visit Elinor at their cottage and drop in on them in London, as well.

And at the time he found himself falling in love with Marianne, he'd already abandoned another young girl heartlessly, and therefore didn't deserve to have that love take root and flourish. That's how I read it anyway.

Total agreement Lady Disdain!! And he even said himself that he fell in love with her against his will and wanted it only as fun really.
So sorry I just can't like him :)

EDIT: Sarah C is right, i'll hide the spoilers

Marjorie in a way i do agree with u as well, Tanner presents it as if it was a bad thing that Marianne became less passionate, "something valuable has been lost", no she just matured...

but about the Willoughby-Wickham dilemma i still think Willoughby is worse than Wickham, Austen presents them both as those choosing money over love, but aside from the subject of money, Willoughby is still worse than Wickham.
(view spoiler)[let's consider when he came to defend himself to Elinor: In defence of what he did to Eliza he speaks of "the violence of [Eliza's] passion and the weakness of her understanding" and that he was not the only one to blame and Elinor is embarassed she doesn't want him to elaborate, but it does suggest that Eliza kind of seduced him, i don't think that's enough reason to forgive him getting her pregnant and abandoning her afterwards And hiding it from everyone And insulting Col Brandon who has every right to hate him. He spoke of Mrs Smith finding out about the affair, and says that it was by a man who wanted to deprive him of her favour, as if the problem is that the secret was known, not that it happened.
then about the subject of Marianne, he does admit that he tried at first to make himself pleasing to her to indulge himself only without any desire of returning her affection, then he says "To resist such attractions, to have withstood such tenderness!--Is there a man on earth who could have done it!" ...does this exonerate him of every blame? (hide spoiler)]

I don't hate Willoughby, in fact i see him as a slightly more developed Wickham, who also played with women emotions, but Wickham was not shown to regret it as Willoubhby was, even though of course he is not purely insensitive even if It isn't shown.
(view spoiler)[they only forgive him because they think he is still madly in love with Marianne when i think that her innocence touched him so much that he regretted what he did with her ( having Marianne was a luxury Wickham never had) but Willoughby still didn't regret Eliza, didn't regret marrying for money and hated and insulted his wife...I sympathise with him but i do not forgive him (hide spoiler)]

Just expressing opinion :)

Majore wrote - Eliot is clearly the winner: no redeeming qualities at all.
Yes i agree, but yet i don't really like Willoughby or Wickham or Henry - wait that all of them!! oh well i just don;t like the men challenging the romanctic heros for the heroines!!! ;)

I definitely agree with Marjorie about the "Austen bad guys". Willoughby is not as bad as Wickham or Elliot, though he definitely was a prick as well.
True, getting Eliza pregnant and then not helping her is a seriously bad move. But I really do think that he was worried about Marianne - but he, unlike Ferrars, was a married man, and couldn't just "drop in" and see how she was doing. It would have been weird, especially since they ended things so badly. Also, I do really think that Willoughby regreted marrying for money. I think he mentions something about wishing that he had married Marianne instead, because Mrs. Smith would still let him inherit + he loved her. :)
I don't know what it is about Willoughby, but for some reason I just like him! He must be a charmer :)

Agree with Marjorie but can't agree with Leonora - sorry!!!

sorry again but am i the only one who felt that Henry Crawford didn't love Fanny. i speculate, what would make a man like Crawford propose this hurriedly to Fanny even before firmly establishing anything about how she feels about him, in my opinion, he couldn't believe a girl like her could not accept his flirtations, he wanted to get to her by anyway and proposed due to being teased that he could not get her attention. how can we think that he changed in that short period of time in which he was the only one making moves towards Fanny and she wasn't doing anything at all, could we preceive of his proposal as really genuine or would it have actually caught him off guard if she had really accepted?

i know we're on a Willoughby discussion, so again my opinion is that Henry and Willoughby r the two most similar, they both were shocked to find a girl that was different than the ones they've always encountered and r said to fall in love truly for the first time ( though the last part i challenge could be called real love, bec they weren't even used to it to know it was for certain)

I think - answering the mini thread which has started - that for Frank Churchill has to be the best bad man because although he did badly, he didn't properly harm anyone except making Knightly very jealous. When talking about it before I forgot about Churchill!! ;)

Henry did tell Sir Thomas about his proposals, because Fanny declined him and he wanted Sir Thomas to convince her otherwise. So yes, Henry definitely loved her, because he was willing to spend the rest of his life with her - and he wasn't marrying her for any fortune, either.

Soph, I agree, Frank Churchill has to be the best bad guy. He turned out to not really be a bad guy, just a guy wanting to marry the poor, but nice girl that he loves, and who doesn't know how to handle the situation. :)

Namida... wrote: "Whatever the name of the automaton which submits to the plans or its relations and join the social game it is not the real Marianne, in the devitalized symmetry of the conclusion something valuable has been lost."

I think Tanner has an awfully romantic and unrealistic view of the world--far better to hang onto the passionate sensitivity of youth and die than to mature into the kind of person who could have a lasting relationship? I don't think so! Even if Willoughby and Marianne had married, I think their marriage would have been 3 years of intense bliss followed by growing discontent and eventually that passion being turned against each other. There would have been hurled knick knacks in that household!

Marjorie, I completely agree! I think that that is what makes Willoughby and Churchill slightly more appealing than for example Elliot or Wickham. Both are not exactly evil and conniving, but they are rather thoughtless and selfish. :)

I do however think that Willoughby was heartbroken about Marianne. If you read the passage towards the end where he talks to Elinor, it is clear that he regrets his actions. I think that Austen included that scene to sort of redeem Willoughby. He was a major jerk, yes, but I think that he meant well a lot of the time. :)

Leonora wrote - 'Soph, I agree, Frank Churchill has to be the best bad guy...'
Yes and i think the only thing that was bad on his part was the way he treated Emma to cover up his engagment and the way he treated Jane at times. But nothing serious and Emma wasn't hurt :)

Majorie wrote - 'Even if Willoughby and Marianne had married, I think their marriage would have been 3 years of intense bliss followed by growing discontent and eventually that passion being turned against each other. '
Agree there :)and i agree with you about Frank being lucky and Willoughby being not so lucky.
I just have a huge prejudice against him for some reason...


and Leonora - 'I do however think that Willoughby was heartbroken about Marianne. If you read the passage towards the end where he talks to Elinor, it is clear that he regrets his actions. I think that Austen included that scene to sort of redeem Willoughby. He was a major jerk, yes, but I think that he meant well a lot of the time. :) '
Yes i think that scene is important i just can't forgive him!!! i think i would have more if it hadn't been for making Brandon's ward pregnant and then running off!!

but i agree when you say this 'I think that that is what makes Willoughby and Churchill slightly more appealing than for example Elliot or Wickham.'
I DO NOT like Wickham or Eliot AT ALL!

Majorie wrote - 'I disagree about whether what Frank Churchill did was not "serious." All that joking about Jane's possible involvement with another man, a married man at that, was a very serious, even shocking, thing in the society of that time. Frank even hinted that the piano, an expensive gift, came from "Mr Dixon." '
I do agree that it was bad and poor Jane - thats what i was referring to with the comment about treatment of Jane, however i think in comparsion it isn't serious.

'I wonder, what would Frank have done if his aunt hadn't died, solving his dilemma?'
Thats a point - i don't know that is interesting and whether he would follow Willoughby is an interesting line of thought...

Hey everyone -- this is a magnificent discussion! I love it -- here's a note I must make though:

PLEASE mark spoilers if you are detailing the outcome of ANOTHER Jane novel not the subject of this particular discussion -- such as the Frank Churchill plot in Emma. PLEASE do discuss it as a comparison -- this is great -- but we haven't all read Emma, so we don't want to stumble into a plot spoiler here, if you see what I mean?

You can actually leave the threads like you wrote and place in the spoiler warning -- see the "some html is ok" link above your comment box to see how.

Our threads here in Jane Austen will constantly bring in info from the other Jane novels, but don't give direct spoilers of those novels without a warning to other members. Thank you SO much.

Megan, Rachel, and will be happy to help if you need help with the techno on this. However, we as mods can't fix the comments if necessary, only delete them and we don't want to do that.

Thanks as always!

Sorry - its just so easy to get side tracked without realising you are ... :S

No worries, Soph -- and I wrote some of my comment wrong anyway and went back to clarify - I'm sorry about that!

its easy for anyone to make mistakes :)but this is a great forum and i am so pleased i am now apart of it :)