YA LGBT Books discussion

I decided to pin this thread, because the issue of sex content in YA books comes up over and over - this thread, begun in 2011, is a long discussion which shows just how little consensus there is, but which highlights valuable arguments from several points of view.


In several threads, conversation has turned to explicitness of the sex content of books and what's appropriate and enjoyable for whom. And especially what's okay for young-adult readers. In this group, we've had the issue arise with both monthly reads and the bookshelf. So I thought maybe the people in the group might weigh in with your opinions. (Not that we'll put explicit stuff on the bookshelf because, you know, there are laws, but I'm curious what you think.)

The topic comes up two ways. The first and most relevant here is in fiction. How much sex do you want to see on the page? Is is right, appropriate or even possible to censor what teenagers read? Does the "Click if you're over 18" button ever stop you from exploring? If you read something explicit, does that make you more likely to experiment with sex in real life?

For my part, I have two teenagers. I don't try to censor them but they both shy away from on-the-page sex in books. My 15-year-old will read anything straight/gay/lesbian if it's well-written but doesn't want any of those pairings described in detail. (Mom sighs with relief here because she is just 15.) How about you?

The second question is about when you go looking for information, not entertainment. A bunch of us were chatting on the adult side about how inadequate our sex ed had been. Are there things that teens should not be told, or is asking the question a sign that the kid should get a factual answer? Are there details you don't want to know? Is a book a good place to go for information?

When my daughter was twelve, I gave her Our Bodies, Ourselves , an update of the same book my parents, bless them, gave me when I was thirteen.

I don't know if there's anything comparable for boys, especially gay boys. One friend of mine, who is young and gay, has been reading The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition . Although a little more sex-oriented, he says it also has great information about body image, HIV, alcohol and drug awareness and other topics. It promotes having a belief in your own worth. About having sex when it's right for you, not someone else. Like our Damon has said in his inimitable way, "Never allow people to jerk off using your body as a convenient hand." Stuff I think every young person should hear. So what do you think? Is this TMI?

I figure we spend hours in driver's ed teaching 15-year-olds how not to kill themselves on the roads. We should do the same for sex ed. But not everyone feels that way.

In terms of on-screen sex and what's appropriate for young adults, I think the intent of the scene plays an important role. Is the scene there to arouse the reader? Than it doesn't belong in a young adult book.

I think for on screen sex in a YA book, it should be less explicit and focus on more than just the erotic detail.

I think it's the difference between letting your thirteen-year-old what a romance movie where things get a little steamy and letting them watch a porno.

I'm sure everyone knows that the only thing the "only click if you are 18" button does is make you click on it, especially if you are under 18. Just like being under 21 doesn't stop anyone from getting alcohol (and easily) or drinking it, being under 18 doesn't stop you from reading anything explicit. Or from having sex.

I was raised in a catholic family. There was no sex education in our house. Even if there had been, it wouldn't have helped me anyway because it most definitely wouldn't have been "Sex education for the gay boy". The sex ed we got in high school wasn't much better. In the 10th grade we got dolls with a computer chip in them that cried at odd times of the day or night and we had to pick them up to get them to quiet down. It really didn't teach us much other than how to wedge something in the opening of the dolls back that made them quiet down. I had only 30 kids in my class and one of the girls was already pregnant when we got the dolls. When the teacher gave her the doll she said "are you kidding me?" We all laughed. That was the extent of our sex ed at school.

I can tell you in all honesty, that as a gay person I really had no one I could ask questions of until just in the last few weeks when I met Jerry, Jason, and Damon over on the adult side, as Kaje called it.
They have all been great to me about answering my questions, but I really wish I had had them to talk to a few years ago, or even earlier than that. But since I didn't, and I'm sure I'm not the only one, I think a factual book like



The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition would have been the next best thing to having someone to talk to. I also don't think it would have made me run out and want to try everything in the book. It may have actually made me stop and think about what I was doing. I don't think having the facts about sex can hurt anyone. But not having them can.

Jordie.R wrote: "I'm sure everyone knows that the only thing the "only click if you are 18" button does is make you click on it, especially if you are under 18. Just like being under 21 doesn't stop anyone from ge..."

I agree with you with everything in me.
Information is something that should be given freely and way before 18 years old. The only thing it does is prevent from dangerous decisions that can be made due to ignorance.

Jordie.R wrote: "The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition would have been the next best thing to having someone to talk to. I also don't think it would have made me run out and want to try everything in the book. It may have actually made me stop and think about what I was doing. I don't think having the facts about sex can hurt anyone. But not having them can."

Jordie, where you went to high school what do you think your access to a book like this would have been? If they'd had it in the school library, would you have avoided it?

Anne wrote: "Jordie.R wrote: "The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition would have been the next best thing to having someone to talk to. I also don't think it would have made me run out and want to ..."

Anne, I can tell you it wouldn't have been in the library. I also don't think we would have been able to access it online somewhere. Not from the school computers. And if it had been in the school
library, yes, I would have avoided it like it was on fire. But, I may have stolen it if I ever had the chance. And no, stealing is not something that I do, but I really probably would have. You also have to understand, that my whole school, K thru grade 12, was in one building. Less than 300 kids in the whole school, not just high school. Maybe in a bigger school where there was the possibility of more gay kids and different support groups , they could have a book like this and kids would actually feel comfortable reading it. Or maybe not, I don't know. But I think there should be access to something like this. I honestly did not know there was such a book until very recently. Porn, I knew about, but not this book.

Jordie.R wrote: "Anne wrote: "Jordie.R wrote: "The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition would have been the next best thing to having someone to talk to. I also don't think it would have made me run out..."

That's so messed up. Because in a school with 300 kids (even k-12) I am positive you were not the only queer kid. It's sad that kids -- even mainstream "straight" kids -- learn more from entertainment media than from legitimate sources like that book.

I'm so freaking happy my kids go to the schools they do.

Kaje wrote: "I don't know if there's anything comparable for boys, especially gay boys. One friend of mine, who is young and gay, has been reading The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition . Although a little more sex-oriented, he says it also has great information about body image, HIV, alcohol and drug awareness and other topics."

I haven't read that exact book, so I don't know how well it compares, but I've searched for something along those lines for my own son, and I did find these (slightly OT, but in case anyone is looking for a book on this subject matter):

What's Going on Down There?: Answers to Questions Boys Find Hard to Ask

AMA's Boy's Guide to Becoming a Teen

What's Happening to Me: Boys Edition

The Boy's Body Guide: A Health and Hygiene Book for Boys 8 and Older

My Body, My Self for Boys

Boy's Body Book

Isn't there an on-line site for LGBTQ kids with valuable information, too? I know I've seen one geared at teens, and it's not glorifying sex. I'll look for it.

I have the equivalent girls' books peppering the house, Harper. I never actually see anyone crack them, but I've notice they move, and are developing signs of wear... :-)

Kaje wrote: "A bunch of us were chatting on the adult side about how inadequate our sex ed had been. Are there things that teens should not be told, or is asking the question a sign that the kid should get a factual answer?"

This is actually a topic I feel very strongly about. Cheesy as it sounds, knowledge really is power, and I think the fact that a lot of these schools (and parents) don't provide sex education/discussion to their children is doing these kids a great disservice. My own parents never had the sex talk with me. When I asked my mom, she said, "Sex is what happens when two people love each other" and that was the end of that subject (and, man, how inaccurate and vague is that? lol). So how did I learn about sex? We found my dad's porn stash and watched them all (we were like 9 or 10 at the time), and obviously this is not the best way to learn about what sex is supposed to be like.

I know everyone has their own comfort level as to what they will/won't discuss with their children, and that is a personal choice, but I know that, for me, I'd rather have my kid over-informed than under-informed. The way I look at it, he is going to go out and do it one way or another, and I'd rather have him know about condoms and safety, and all the potential consequences involved with sex, from pregnancy to STDs, than have him go into it blind. (And, yes, my discussion with him when he gets older will include the topic of gay sex.)

As to how much is too much in YA, it's kind of hard to say. I think it should be there because that's reality, but I think a lot of it really has to do with the intent of the author. Like Ralph said, if these scenes are meant to arouse like outright erotica, I don't know if I would consider that appropriate. But, at the same time, am I totally against graphic descriptions? Not necessarily. It's a fine line.

Like everyone so far, I don't believe in censorship & knowledge is a very good thing for people to have.

I will take the other side with young adult books. I think that there are quite a few readers who aren't reading fiction books for knowledge but for entertainment. Many deliberately choose young adult books knowing that those books do not have explicit on the page sex. It doesn't mean the topic isn't bought up. But most know they're going to get a pg 13 to R level of sex & violence in these books. Many are already bombarded with sexual images everywhere they look & maybe they're just looking for a break. Maybe they're just interested in reading a sci fi or fantasy book without having to worry that it will suddenly turn into erotica. This is just my opinion but I hate to see the muddying up of the genre. Really if someone wants more explicitness they really are free to read books outside the genre.

By the way, The Joy of Gay Sex, Revised & Expanded Third Edition is available at my public library & is probably available at many other public libraries if you can't find it at your school.

That's great that it's available at libraries! Free access is a good thing (and many libraries have secluded reading areas and automated no-eyes-on-your-stuff check-out, so shy guys may be able to access it without embarrassment.)

In YA fiction, I agree that I don't want a lot of sex on the page, certainly not erotica. At the same time, in a lot of relationship stories I do want enough to know what the main characters are doing, because it makes a plot difference. Frotting is not a hand job is not a bj, when it applies to how the characters feel about it and how the relationship is developing. So if sex is realistically going to be part of the plot, then a little info is good. About in the level of the Rainbow Boys series, or Thinking Straight.

I'm going to weigh in here with a potentially stupid comment. I read YA, both main stream and gay oriented, for the fact that I find YA story's are far more character driven. Quite often, I find, even main stream books still have an element of sex - not related to the story or above and beyond the requirements to add to story line.

I don't have anything against sex in a YA story I just don't want it graphic nor do I want it unrelated.

I don't have kids, so I haven't really thought about it from that perspective. I guess I would want them to be comfortable with sex and in context of stories then definitely would prefer then to read about it in a mutual/consensual format and NOT hide it.

~Relating this topic to me as a youth~
I often wonder how I would have been different if I had access to more mature gay 'themed' books - even if they weren't as explicit as what I was accessing in the 80's (yep as a 13 y.o. I managed to find LOT'S of str8 & gay porn!!) A lot of the coming of age stories I read would have affected me quite strongly - in a far more positive way.

I guess at the end of the day, in an ideal world, parents, teachers and friends would recommend books based on the youth's maturity.

I do agree with the point that no teenager would 'not' read something with a maturity rating or explicitness rating.

It's a total minefield this topic and think I'll step away from it.
*hugs*
b

Harper wrote: "Kaje wrote: "A bunch of us were chatting on the adult side about how inadequate our sex ed had been. Are there things that teens should not be told, or is asking the question a sign that the kid sh..."
I agree with you.

Besides here schools don't give informations at all, at least as far as I know.

What I do know is that in my house there will be plenty of books in case my children don't want/are too shy to ask me or their father.

I always wonder how many young adults out there are reading just YA novels. I also wonder if that makes it more or less important how sex is portrayed in YA novels. I say more important because if they are reading about sex between adults then they need to know that things can be slightly different when you're a young adult. The pitfalls are the same but you're in a more vulnerable place in your life when you're a teen.

I don't remember what sex ed was like in school but then again my parents didn't rely on school to teach me about sex and everything that goes along with it.

WhenI was 11 or 12 I read a Catherine Coulter novel and my mother sat me down afterwards and explained everything sexual in the book, told me about condoms and safety and the whole nine yards. I also read 9 1/2 weeks when I was around 11. A lot of people think that's crazy but it resulted in me not seeing sex as something forbidden or taboo. I wasn't scared to ask questions and I knew the deal when it came to sex. I didn't need to ask friends questions that would have resulted in me having a lot of incorrect information.

My mother's books were never off limits to me. I was allowed to read whatever I wanted. I think she was just happy that I was a reader like her. I think I moved from books for young readers directly to adult books with no transitional books in between. That was almost 40 years ago though and we didn't have all the YA books like we do now.

Laddie wrote: "I always wonder how many young adults out there are reading just YA novels. I also wonder if that makes it more or less important how sex is portrayed in YA novels. I say more important because if ..."

My daughters both read YA pretty exclusively between the ages of 10 and 13 or so. My younger is 15 and still browses mostly YA in the library, although she also reads a little bit of stuff from the adult side. So depending how young you're talking about, there are some kids where that is the bulk of their reading. For mine, the adult stuff was available, but they liked the angsty tone and I think also the de-emphasis on sex and violence as plot drivers in the YA. The adult books they liked were often the British mysteries like Ellis Peters or historicals, fantasies and biographies where those things were also limited.

Lori, you sound like me. I was an unstoppable early reader & I ended up reading whatever I found with no restrictions. My family was just happy I liked reading. Add the pervasive internet, and I doubt any teen today is really restricted from anything. But still you'll notice the most popular books that teens are reading are still the Twilight stories, fantasy books like Harry Potter and The Hunger Games.

I think the YA is a nice market because it is more character driven stories & usually have strong young characters. It can make teens feel empowered in their own life. It does work better if young people can see themselves represented like you mentioned in your other topic (the one where the agent wanted the writer to X out the gay characters & ones of different ethnicities)

As a young reader that you all are talking about, I find that adult books are boring actually difficult to read and follow. Not only that but they take forever to get through. My favorite series of all time is the Mortal Instruments by Cassandra Clare. I think the sexual tension is there but she doesn't go into great detail about how or what they are doing sexually. I don't need sex in the book to sell me the story. If its a good book it doesn't use it anyway or need it.
In Y/A GLBT im happy with just knowing that the main character or characters are aroused by the objects of their affections, but they don't have to be sex crazed horny all the time.

Difficult to answer this one, Kaje. Maturity levels vary widely among teens -- as do (I'm sure) sex drives. Writers couldn't make some young people blush if they tried . . . or could make others cringe with only a vague reference to sexual activity.

I read Lady Chatterley's Lover when I was a sophomore in high school, and I believe it shocked my English teacher far more than it shocked me. It wasn't that I was sexually active; I was just very inquisitive.

Regardless of these variations, I do think story and character development should be the main focus of YA books. Self- and life-exploration are of paramount importance to kids in this age group. At least they were to me and the teenagers I've known.

I think sex should be in YA books only when it's actually appropriate for the story's development and helps the reader through the progression of the character in terms of their mental and emotional maturity. In other words, as long as it's there for a reason and not just a page filler, i'm happy because if it's overdone or out of context then it drags the story out and is just boring in general...(well, except when it's well written and hot... haha) so just to clarify, don't care about censorship - that added element in the relationship would have helped me growing up, I think, but just use common sense and know the limits...

John wrote: "I think sex should be in YA books only when it's actually appropriate for the story's development and helps the reader through the progression of the character in terms of their mental and emotiona..."

I would have to agree with you, especially about the "well written and hot part" , lol. Just kidding. As long as the story keeps my attention, that's all I need.

I think that as long as the story stays true to the characters then you can't go wrong. I hate when a plot goes off course and leaves the reader feeling left out of the loop. Sex doesn't always need to be front and center, off screen sex can be rewarding as well.

I don't think there's anything wrong with sex in YA novels, as long as, as others have said, it serves a purpose in the story. That said, I cringe when I read graphic descriptions of sexual activity in YA books, because personally I'm not comfortable reading that in books for kids in that age group. And yes, I know that's kind of naive of me. I realize that most teens have read--and possibly even done--things at least that graphic if not more so. As a reader, I just prefer fade-to-black or something that makes it clear what's happening without blatantly saying it. That's my personal preference, though, and it's based mostly on the fact that I'm parenting two teenage girls and I form my preferences at this point by what I would feel comfortable having them read.

I write my books the same way. I do have sexually active characters in some of my books, but it's closed-door activity. When I write, I have my younger daughter (who is 13 and has high-functioning autism) in mind, and I don't write anything she wouldn't be comfortable reading.

I think part of the problem is that YA covers such a range. What is comfortable for me to hand to a thirteen year old is different from fifteen is different from seventeen. Maybe the question is whether it's possible to split YA into older and younger audiences, or whether there is some minimum age group that we have to be keeping in mind as the ceiling for explicitness (sex, violence, and mature-situation-wise.) In this group I think we have mainly older YA's which is the group I think of (ie. the word "adult" in YA.) For some YA goes down to the 12-13 age group which is a different story to me. (Teen readers, maybe.)

Or maybe 16 and up for YA; a lot of places 16 is the age of consent and I graduated highschool at 16 and certainly felt adult. But definitely 12-15 to me is a younger not-yet-adult group, no matter how many adult things they are trying out. (At least in most cases; don't let my 15 year old hear that I said that. Actually, she likes mature-situations but doesn't want the explicit sex or violence stuff yet.)

I completely agree that there needs to be more age-group division. Huge changes occur in the ten-or-so years between puberty and legal adulthood. College-age individuals have little in common (at least I hope so!) with kids in middle school.

Seconding (fourthing?) the need to divide YA a bit more. There's a huge difference, emotionally and developmentally, between a 12-year-old and a 16 or 17-year-old. And some kids at 9 or 10 start reading YA because they're bored with books aimed at their age group.

Ralph wrote: "In terms of on-screen sex and what's appropriate for young adults, I think the intent of the scene plays an important role. Is the scene there to arouse the reader? Than it doesn't belong in a youn..."

I have read through this entire thread, and I definitly agree with Ralph's sentiments here. If it is to arouse, then shouldn't be in Y/A.

Then, if there is to be any sex scene, it should be there for the purpose of showing the progressively growing love of the two main characters. ANd the consequences of promiscuous and unprotected sex should also be a part of the story.

Kaje wrote: "In several threads, conversation has turned to explicitness of the sex content of books and what's appropriate and enjoyable for whom. And especially what's okay for young-adult readers. In this ..."

Kaje, I think this is a very important thread you have begun. ANd as writers we have to remember we are creating fiction. But some young readers may see this fiction as reality. So it is important when creating sex scenes to include in the story the consequences of promiscuous and unprotected sex. ANd I myself would prefer if the sex is part of the story as a continuation of a growing love between the two parties, and not just some quick instant gratification. Because some young people use these stories as learning tools.

I have to agree that if a sex scene is in there just for the sake of a sex scene, then it shouldn't be there. But if it's appropriate for the story, and moves the story along, and is relevant and all that goodness, then yes, it should be in there.

I picked up an adult romance novel when I was a teen, though now I've forgotten how old I was exactly. Maybe 16 or so, and my mom freaked out and put it somewhere where I never found it until I was in college and it was going to the library book sale. lol, at that point, I could have cared less. I debated grabbing it and reading it, but never did. The thing that got me was that the book actually had very little sex in it. I never got to the sex (sadly) before my mother took it away, but went back later and skimmed it. There wasn't much. My Mom's odd like that.

As for the age ranges... I wouldn't bother. As I work in the teen section of my library, it would be a huge headache to have to organize books by age the way they do in the children's section. And by the time kids become teenagers, their tastes vary. Some like reading adult books even before they turn 12. (I actually have a friend who swears he learned to read as a toddler by reading Steven King out loud to his aunt!) And some older teens prefer younger books. There are also a lot of teens who have trouble reading, and to have to point them in the direction of shelves meant for younger kids, would make them hate me, for sure, I bet. I just wouldn't go there. Personally, I think it's up to the parent to see what their kids are reading and to make a judgement call. I might not agree with it, but then I'm not the kid's parent. I just remember what things were like when I was a kid. But, that's just my thoughts on the matter.

How about just an "more mature content" warning? Or would even that be too much? My kids read whatever they felt ready for, but my oldest in particular hated to have sex or violence in a book sneak up on her when she was younger.

lol, I think that would encourage kids to read it even more, than if you left that warning off.

Kaje wrote: "In several threads, conversation has turned to explicitness of the sex content of books and what's appropriate and enjoyable for whom. And especially what's okay for young-adult readers. In this ..."

I have just joined this group because I am disillusioned about adult M/M romance, many of which are so pornographic. As an educator, I want to read and also be able to recommend YA M/M romances to pupils in addition to regular straight YA to cultivate sexual orientation awareness among those who will eventually become our future leaders and "influencers." Many of the adult M/M novels that I read on my e-book reader are not appropriate to show to my students when they inquire what their teacher, hence, role model, is reading. However, if the YA author puts in sex, please also continue on to show the risks of STD and HIV that these characters might encounter and where they can go for help or treatment. Then the sexual content is justified, somewhat to people in the still conservative education sector. Secondly, YA M/M books that not pornographic can be assigned to students without protests from less-than-educated homophobic mothers in Asian communities. Asian mothers are less open to ideas outside of their norms especially in Asian countries.

Hey Hoong.. You've just mentioned one of the reasons I love YA as a broad genre so much.. The stories tend to be SO much better because they aren't reliant on sex.. (Don't get me wrong I'm a fan of the M/M romance stuff too but like you it is easy to fall into that porn category..)

I'm not sure it's only Asian mothers who are less open to ideas outside the norm.. I hear story after story about lack of acceptance from parental units.. Sadly from all over the world - Nth & Sth America.. Europe (not quite as much but still) Asia Pacific region.. Nth Africa.. (can't comment on southern Africa as I don't know anyone from that way!)

I agree with you 100% that it would be great to see some mature YA books hitting up which included themes with STD/HIV...

How do you feel about the different approaches to YA books with sex?? There's the option of NOT including it at all -> A Hole in the World & The Side Door

Or there is the fade to black option.. (and my mind just went blank on the titles I was thinking about..) Unnatural & Magic's Pawn

I have to say that I don't actually side with either option.. There is a time and place.. hehe

Hi Byron. Based on my environment in Asia Pacific and as an educator, I'd prefer kissing or holding hands to be included if it enhances the story. A "fade to black" option is also good as it makes the book publicly accessible in the education sector. Here in my part of the world, gay is usually equated with trannies. These individuals are tolerated but with reduced status in society. Gay bashing that I have seen is mild as in teasing, but not inflicting pain like in the USA. I am proud to be able to report a student to his homeroom teacher for gay bashing another through cyber-bullying. Some schools, particularly the international schools, are progressive--they don't tolerate bashing anybody for race and religion. Still, I'd like M/M novels written in the same vein as "Great Expectation", "Romeo and Juliet" and "Wuthering Heights" so High school pupils can choose to read LGBT or straight "classics" as book reports. I mention these supposedly classics because they are weave into the curriculum of high school students here as well since we use the same American textbooks. If publicly acceptable LGBT literature is available, these kids will grow up to respect one another.
Also, thanks for suggesting some YA books.

hehe Hoong, I think you'll also find some educators from the US and Canada on board in this group too!! I don't come from an educator's back ground but I do think that the YA market can become a LOT more accepting of different sexualities without it becoming an issue.. Here is hoping.. (and that way we get brilliant well rounded stories!!)

(I think I should step off my soap box now.. hehe)

Hoong wrote: "Hi Byron. Based on my environment in Asia Pacific and as an educator, I'd prefer kissing or holding hands to be included if it enhances the story. A "fade to black" option is also good as it make..."

The Rainbow Boys series (3 books) is one where HIV is discussed in the 2nd book primarily- one of the boys has a scare and gets tested, etc. There is a character who is positive after his first and only sexual experience. But the tone is upbeat and positive and romantic, not scary. There is some sex, but very non-graphically portrayed. Luna is a wonderful YA book about a girl whose brother is a M to F transgender, in the process of figuring out who he/she is. And no sex at all on page.

For me, it doesn't matter whether the book is adult or YA, if there's sex in it, it has to be there for a reason other than to get the reader hot. It has to move the story forward. For YA, yeah, I can agree with the less graphic, the better, but sometimes you do have to show what happens. Such as the Rainbow Boys series. I don't think that series or even that scene would have been as good if we didn't fully understand what happened between the sheets. However, it was not told in graphic detail, but very tastefully done.

On the other hand, if you look at all the yaoi manga books kids are reading, that sex is even more graphic than anything I've read in a YA novel. And those are geared toward teens, though some do have an 18+ rating on them, they're shelved right next to those for younger kids, even in the bookstores.

Damn, I totally forgot about Rainbow Boys series... I loved that series..

And thanks for the heads up on the other book Kaje..

@Jordan - Oh... I'll have to check out the local supplier.. I don't think they are carrying yaoi that was rated above mature.. I've never looked at the 18+ stuff..

Yeah, I found the 18+ yaoi at a Borders near me a few years back. It all gets shelved in one section, by title. At least, there it did. Though since they have a separate children's section, I think the manga for little kids would be shelved in that section away from the 18+ adult stuff.

Here at the library, I don't see adults reading much manga , even if it is 18+. They read the regular comic books more than the teens do, and the teens read more manga. Of course, manga has to be read right to left, which might be part of it, plus the characters are usually younger too, no matter what's going on in the story.

Hoong, thank you for posting. I'm currently planning a novel about a gay boy who's in the process of accepting that he's gay and coming out to his family (I don't usually do coming out stories, but in this case I laid the groundwork in another novel, and the editor asked me to write this one). Your comments about the sorts of things you as an educator would prefer in YA GLBT books gives me something to aim for with my novel.

As I said earlier in this thread, if sexual activity happens in my novels, it's closed-door/fade to black, but I like the idea of making this new novel I'm planning more of a romance than my novels usually are.

Manga is also written for an audience that isn't a stingy about sex as Americans are. Sex isn't considered a taboo in Japan like is is over here. And most bookstores don't check the content of the manga. They just see manga and stick it on the shelf.

Ralph wrote: "Manga is also written for an audience that isn't a stingy about sex as Americans are. Sex isn't considered a taboo in Japan like is is over here. And most bookstores don't check the content of the ..."

Hey, Ralph, I need you on the STG threads.

Lol which STG thread?

I'd like to share that a movie based on that series (Rainbow Boys)was made and released. Guess what, many of the outright gay characters were effeminate (which is an inferior trait in Asian culture). The movie didn't do well due to the amateurish acting, and needless to say, the book series are shunned as teens won't read about "uncool" people who ARE despised in their society. Would you blame them?

I've heard of the movie of Rainbow boys but never found it to watch. I suspect a film like that may not have been made for blockbuster cinema.. I don't really know what the characters being 'effeminate' as to the story are like. I don't really qant to comment with out seeing them. BUT I certainly don't see any problem with characters having percieved effeminate sides. . I think it's what makes us all different, something that I try to foster in those around me.

Byron wrote: "I've heard of the movie of Rainbow boys but never found it to watch. I suspect a film like that may not have been made for blockbuster cinema.. I don't really know what the characters being 'effemi..."

I haven't seen it either. It would be a shame to have done it badly, because part of the attraction of the series was that the characters ran the spectrum from Jason the jock through Nelson with his dyed hair.

And those teens are seriously missing out if they won't read about uncool people. That leaves out a lot of the very best YA fiction.

Byron, I agree as a "mature" adult, but that's not what is going on through the head of a middle school boy who seeks to be "cool" and his socially-pressured mother who controls his school and after school learning center environment (with her purse stings). Asians want to conform; Americans, stand out. I used to lecture a college philosophy class with American exchange students from L.A. and the local high society hip Asians. If only you were here! You can easily tell an Asian American from the local from their appearance and social behavior.

Jo wrote: "Hoong, thank you for posting. I'm currently planning a novel about a gay boy who's in the process of accepting that he's gay and coming out to his family (I don't usually do coming out stories, but..."

We need more writers like you, Jo! Michael Cunningham's A Home at the End of World deals with the gay character nicely. I find it done nicely.