Fantasy Aficionados discussion

As an atheist, I'm asking you...

Don't do this, man. Especially not with such outright hostile terminology.

If you want a discussion, at least be respectful. Not of the religion, but of the people here who follow it that you're attempting to have the discussion with.

"Weak and stupid" is just flame bait, man...



EDITED TO ADD CONTEXT:
This post of mine was in reply to someone else who started this thread but decided to delete his post.
His post was, all things considered, a really shitty way to try and open up a discussion.

So, yeah.

You'd be surprised, man.

Something atheists from places other than America don't seem to get or realize is that religion is a pretty big deal here in the states. I'm not overstating this either. Our politicians, even though there is no religious test for office, almost have to claim some religion or another. Hell, we have states with laws on the books that bar any atheist from holding office.

It's a pretty big deal here, bud. Don't believe me, check out www.reddit.com/r/atheism sometime. You'll learn a lot about the state of things here in the US, as far as religion and atheism go.

So yeah, discussions like these will invariably end up in flames and locked, especially when you open up the floor with terms as volatile as the ones you used.

Sigh. I'll talk with the other moderators. We wanted to avoid shutting down threads.

But Brandt, you did not open up a discussion meant to inspire debate. The phrase "I simply can’t understand why anyone, with a minimum of intelligence and independent thought, could be religious" borders on hate speech and inspires divisiveness, not thoughtful dialogue.

Actually, if you replace "religious" with other group of choice, it's clearly hate speech. Why don't you either edit your post or remove it?

Before any shutdown, I'd like to suggest that people view the 'South Park' episode where a Mormon family moves into the neighborhood, especially the ending.
And if Brandt can't imagine why anyone with a minimum of intelligence and independent thought could be religious, I'd suggest that he seek out some religious people and talk with them...respectfully.

I don't respect close minded people of any belief. And althiest are just as guilty of this than any religious person can be.

Many years ago, I was at the lowest point of my life. I'm not going to go into any personal details about it, but it was Christmas Eve, and I was alone, unemployed, and living in a cold and miserable little apartment. A young couple I knew stopped by that evening. They were born-again Christians, and visited me not to proselytize, but because they knew what state I was in and did not think I should remain alone and lonely on that day. I will treasure the care and thoughtfulness they demonstrated to the end of my days.

Traci wrote: "I don't respect close minded people of any belief. And althiest are just as guilty of this than any religious person can be."

Better to say that close-minded people are everywhere and leave it at that.

@Brandt Starting a discussion by labeling the people you want to talk to "weak and stupid" is the wrong way to go.

I mean, seriously, if there was a guy I wanted to discuss something with I wouldn't walk up to him and start off saying, "You're an asshole and you smell funny, so let's talk about so-and-so".

This shouldn't be difficult to understand.

Perhaps you should take a look at how you express those beliefs and encourage others to do the same. If you truly see nothing objectionable about your original post, I suggest that you need to reconsider some things.

I agree with you Brandt but religion is a big deal in the US as Arla says, something that is very difficult for us scandinavians to understand. Even in their money it says " In God We Trust ".
There are people that don't think Obama should be president because they think he is muslim. I don't think i have ever heard our Primeminister or any other politician say anything about god, i am not sure if he is Christian to be honest.
Politicians in the US almost always end speeches with god bless america, there are even someplaces they don't teach evolution! i am not critisizing the US i am just saying the facts and i hope you guys don't shut this thread down.

We have threads for all kinds of topics why can't we discuss religion? it is in the off topic folder is it not?

Everytime a debate starts the moderators have recently gone all Gestapo and shut them down.

@Ala I certainly didn't mean all athiest are close minded but my comment might be read this way. Sorry if anyone thought that. And now I'm staying out of this.

No worries, Traci. :)

Mach wrote: "Everytime a debate starts the moderators have recently gone all Gestapo and shut them down."

Comparing people to Nazi's is just bad form, not to mention really, really insulting. Not to the person you're comparing, but to the people who died at the hands of actual Nazis.

Well, Brandt, if you post something that says, in essence, 'Hey, religious people are stupid' and the next person responds with 'You are a jerk' it's not much of a discussion, even if that person goes on to tell you why they think you're wrong. I think you may indeed have intended to spark a discussion, but if so, you went about it the wrong way. Instead of asking religious people why they were religious you started out by insulting them, suggested that they were all ignorant and close-minded, and then asked for comments.

Brandt, I think you probably mean to spark discussion and to get various ideas on your subject, but you aren't going about it the best way. As Carol requested, I suggest you edit your post to show that you do approach this topic respectfully, realizing that if someone doesn't agree with you that doesn't reflect on their intelligence level.

To answer your question, you can be a highly educated person and hold religious beliefs. I don't do research on these kinds of statistics, because it's not really relevant to me. However, there are significant people of post-graduate education who are religious. Not that they need to prove their credentials to hold an opinion on belief at any rate.

If you decide not to believe or to believe in something, you should take comfort in that and not feel the need to tear down other people's belief systems just because you disagree with them. It's called tolerance. Tolerance goes both ways, between believers and non-believers, and everyone in between.

Faith isn't a matter of intelligence. It's a matter of the choice to believe. Believing doesn't make you stupid. Not believing doesn't make you more intelligent.

Mach, if this was truly a Gestapo state, we wouldn't even have threads in which you could post your opinions, so your comment simply doesn't apply.

Ala wrote: "No worries, Traci. :)

Mach wrote: "Everytime a debate starts the moderators have recently gone all Gestapo and shut them down."

Comparing people to Nazi's is just bad form, not to mention really, really insulting. Not to the person you're comparing, but to the people who died at the hands of actual Nazis. "

I was not trying to insult anyone, i was trying to make a comparison even though it was kind of extreme. Free speech is something i believe in and i hate how this group has recently gone from being a place for any kind of talk, to being a place where we have to watch out for what we say.

Okay. I want to stay out of this but because you brought my comment out I want to clarify. I wasn't accusing you of being closeminded against religion, Brandt. But against those that practice. Which by the way I don't consider myself. But I do feel strongly about freedom of speech and religion. I don't have a problem with the question but with the condescending attitude it was asked.

Brandt - If you truly wanted to learn why people hold the beliefs they do, why not ask that? I don't think it would be possible for anyone of any religious belief to read your post as anything other than "so, why are you so stupid?" I am an atheist and I found it highly offensive. You were certainly right when you said it was provocative, but not in a clever or intelligent way, rather one guaranteed to provoke and offend.

People hold the beliefs and opinions they do for a variety of reasons. Simple answer to the question you didn't actually ask. As with everything else in life, we all have a different story.

There is a distinct irony to the fact that you accused people of believing something because of a lack of education when you so clearly are ignorant of the subject of which you spoke.

http://www.pitzer.edu/academics/facul...

Using a study like the one above would probably have been a better way to start this discussion. It points out that secular nations outscore religious nations in virtually all measures of well-being. There is also plenty of evidence that non-religious people have higher average IQs and are better educated than their religious peers. The college educated people who do remain religious are far less likely to belong to the fundamentalist/evangelical sects of any religion and are far more tolerant towards different beliefs(lots of studies show this, but I didn't track one down this morning).

Very well said, Lady Danielle.
There is a meme out there to the effect that religious people are close-minded and ignorant. This belief is held by people who are not religious. Humans appear to have an innate need to believe in something.
As for moderators shutting down debates, I've seen it happen twice. This is not a completely public forum, and I recognize that they have the right to do so, but it does appear unseemly at times.

I don't want to debate, but I will say that the topic of this thread alone makes me feel defensive. The first thing that jumps out at the reader is "Do only uneducated people believe in God?" like only uneducated rednecks practice any kind of religion.

I'm a practicing Catholic and I believe very much in my religion and my God and that there is something better waiting for us after this life. And even though I don't agree with atheists and don't understand how they can believe the way they do, I respect their right to believe it.

But I don't think atheists are any more educated than I am just because they believe differently than I do. Likewise, you shouldn't think that I'm uneducated just because I believe in God and practice my religion...I spent 12 years being educated in the Catholic faith. I believe in it and frankly I don't care if other people do or not, it's my choice.

Brandt wrote: "The essence was more like "Most *stupid people are religous, are most religous people stupid ?" (which of course isnt the same thing as saying all religious people are stupid!!)
And based on the s..."

Neither of those are a synonym for stupid.

Brandt: I think that I should point out to you once more that you didn't begin this thread in such a way as to encourage a free and open discussion. You began with a conclusion that you appear to hold as a personal belief, and went on from there. So, let me pose a question to you: Do you believe that we all come from nothing, and we all return to nothing when we die?

I don't think religous people are stupid. They believe in God because that is what they have been brought up to believe and they want to believe that there is something more then just what the eye can see. That there are more unreligous people educated then religous i do believe, but that does not necessarily mean anything. It can be that there are more humanists and atheists that want to get higher education then religous people.

The writer Terry Pratchett once summed up the Big Bang theory thusly:
'In the beginning, there was nothing, which exploded.'
Which prompts me to wonder what caused something to come from nothing. Every religion has some sort of Creation myth. I find it interesting that the scientific one so closely resembles a line from the Old Testament: 'And God said, 'Let there be light', and there was light.'

Being made in the image and likeness of God (Genesis 1:27), human beings have the ability to know God and therefore love Him, worship Him, serve Him, and fellowship with Him. God did not create human beings because He needed them.

I am not going to add to the debate on whether or not the initial question asked was perhaps poorly worded. I believe that we all agree it did not bring about the debate hoped for.

My issue is with the comment that those who were persecuted are now all dead, so they won't care. I hope that you'll remember the way you rattled off those words, and ponder them as you go forward in life. It is my dear hope that you one day realize that people still, and hopefully, always will care. Please re-think the use of that term to describe others, and reflect upon your casual use of it. I mean it with my deepest sincerity.

In the beginning of Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries Neil deGrasse Tyson placed the quote "I suspect the universe is not only queerer than we suppose, but queerer than we can suppose." He addresses the common misconception that we are at or near to the end of science, both by pointing backwards to the times that has been said before and the discoveries that followed. We know such a tiny fraction of what there is to know about this universe. I personally find a great beauty in the idea that by a random coincidence we evolved consciousness and intelligence. That is what I believe. I mentioned earlier that I am an atheist, but I much prefer to define myself as a secular humanist. For many other people, they find just as great a beauty and a peace in the belief that this universe was created by a higher power, whether they see that as a god with whom they have a personal relationship or one who is more distant or less intimately involved.

Brandt - no one here has tried to censor you or this discussion. People have said that the way in which you raised the topic was offensive and have suggested that there may be better forums, but no one has told you you can't discuss it. People have asked for respect.

The things people believe the most strongly do tend to provoke controversy when trampled or attacked because those are the things they believe. Is that truly a difficult concept? You don't seem like you're just trolling. You are most definitely attacking an entire group of people. There's no reason to do that.

Brandt, I hope you gain some wisdom in your future. In the mean time, please don't ever speak to me again.

I remember when I was a kid, dinosaurs were portrayed as sluggish, stupid, slow-moving, cold-blooded reptiles. Science had said so. However, scientists kept studying dinosaurs, and now we know differently. Science should not be used as a substitute for a belief system, yet that does not stop some people from trying to do just that.
Even mentioning the N***s provokes strong reactions in some people, so let me offer as a negative example in their place: Communism as practiced by Josef Stalin, Mao Tse-Tung, and Pol Pot. Officially, none of those men believed in a god of any kind. They caused multitudes of their countrymen to cease caring about anything by rendering them dead, in pursuit of the scientific principles of Marxism.

There are a few things I need to address in and about this thread:

1. All people's beliefs will be respected in this group. Both religious and not. Keep the conversation respectful. There has been a lot of requests for respect in this thread, I suggest the requests are heeded.
2. There has been several complaints about lack of moderation in this group. As well as a request for more stringent moderation. If this thread gets out of hand or offensive, it will be shut down.

The correlation of atheistic beliefs of those dictators does not in any way create a causal link to their murderous habits. Additionally, Marxism is a philosophy not a science.

Brandt wrote: "Wow, Laurel.. Your self-righteousness is sickening..
And i don't think you have understood a word of what i have said.."

She disagreed with you and was offended by what you said. That has nothing to do with a lack of understanding.

Brandt wrote: "Wow, Laurel.. Your self-righteousness is sickening..
And i don't think you have understood a word of what i have said.."

And we're done. You don't follow directions very well, do you?

Once more before I shut down this thread:

1. All people's beliefs will be respected in this group. Both religious and not. Keep the conversation respectful. There has been a lot of requests for respect in this thread, I suggest the requests are heeded.
2. There has been several complaints about lack of moderation in this group. As well as a request for more stringent moderation. If this thread gets out of hand or offensive, it will be shut down.

Brandt wrote: "Wow, Laurel.. Your self-righteousness is sickening..
And i don't think you have understood a word of what i have said.."

You know what, this is not ok here. You are not allowed to speak to anyone here like that.

We are all smart people, don't we know there are two topics that should be avoided? Religion and politics!

Brandt wrote: "(I'm getting tired of the whole "you started this wrong"-theme, lets pls move on... )"

And I don't really care what you're tired of. You are barely active within this group but you want to "start a discussion" which is much more like a long insulting rant. You don't spend enough time in this group to understand it's dynamics, so let me explain it to you so that you can understand:

1. You are being very insulting.

2. We don't like insulting.

3. You need to take better care when choosing your words or I will shut down this thread.

Brandt wrote: "Denae wrote: "In the beginning of Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries Neil deGrasse Tyson placed the quote "I suspect the universe is not only queerer than ..."

You not only started the conversation wrong, you are continuing to be derisive and you have ignored multiple requests that you change the title of the thread.

I am not interested in getting into a discussion with you of my personal beliefs. I can assure you, however, that I am intelligent enough, well-read enough, and have put enough thought into these matters to accurately classify my beliefs.

It has been suggested that we are so small and insignificant in the cosmos that there is no reason for God to care about us. For those who wonder why God should care about us, may I ask why God shouldn't?
I would not like to see this thread shut down, because I think it could promote some interesting discussions. Will some be offended by those discussions? Probably. Would that be a reason to shut it down? I don't know. I'm not clear as to what constitutes grounds for termination.

S.J. wrote: "I'm not clear as to what constitutes grounds for termination. "

Not respecting others beliefs and insulting people will shut this thread down quicker than a hot knife through butter.

There are more ways to contact moderators than just in-thread comments. We get PMs about these thread and this is a large group. Controversial is fine, insulting is not.

You and Denae and - when avoiding calling moderators Nazis - Mach are managing fine. Brandt needs to work a little harder to not be a jackass.

I would respectfully point out that Brandt is more likely to learn something about having an actual discussion by working his way through this thread than he would be by having it shut down. I concede that it is possible that he won't learn anything, but it looks to me as if he unwittingly stepped out of his usual comfort zone when he began the thread, and is having a little difficulty adapting. I'd give him a little more time to see if he can do it.

Okay. That didn't take long. It appears to me that Brandt perceives any disagreement with him as a personal attack, and responds in kind. I suppose I could call him close-minded and ignorant for that, but I won't.

Brandt wrote: "Denae wrote: "Brandt wrote: "Denae wrote: "In the beginning of Death by Black Hole: And Other Cosmic Quandaries Neil deGrasse Tyson placed the quote "I suspect the unive..."

Ahahaha...you're just tilting at windmills with that. *sigh*

Has this thread been deleted, or just Brandt?

Neither. I think he ragequit.

Well, he'd stopped contributing much to the discussion shortly after he opened it. I'd be interested in hearing from anyone else their thoughts on religion, science,intelligence, and the like. A friend of mine has an interesting notion. He thinks that God started the cosmos so that one day He would have some company.

And I was about to throw out the idea that there may be better ways to address the issue... there isn't an appriciable connection between Education and Religion and Atheism...

Perhaps the difference is between Spirituality, and Religion. Not all spiritual people are religious, and not all religious people are spiritual.

but. Dead thread. Yep... I move on.

Note how I wasn't here and was being nice. Sigh. I'm happy to talk about beliefs, but it often gets out of hand.

Just thought I'd let you all know we're out here reading.

We need an interesting discussion to get going, but I don't think this is the right one. Ideas?

I'm one of the Christians Carol and as I said, I'm happy to discuss "why". I think we should be able to "Disagree, agreeably" but maybe I'm being naive.

Maybe we could discuss how intelligence and education effect the proclivity to read fantasy???? :)

We've had some interesting discussions about spirituality here. I wonder if Brandt was trying in his own way to echo Marx's "religion is the opiate of the masses." So... are television and video games the new opiates of the masses?