Fantasy Book Club discussion

Was David Gemmell the greatest writer of Heroic Fantasy?

Well, he was the only fantasy author other than Tolkien to be in the book 1001 Books You Must Read Before You Die.

I am so glad someone posted on Gemmell. I have not read his books but wanted to give him a try. For those who have read his books, would you suggest reading the books in publication order or chronological order? I was not sure whether to start with Waylander or Legend. Any advise would be helpful.

It doesn't really matter what order you read Gemmel's stuff as most of them are self contained stories. However, the later ones often make references to earlier ones, particularly to Druss the Legend, but this isn't too confusing so its not really an issue. As to Gemmel being the greatest writer of heroic fantasy? I couldn't answer that one, quite simply because he is about the ONLY writer of heroic fantasy I've read (I like epic fantasy usually). I've just finished reading Dawntheif by James Barclay which was similar though.

I don't think I've read any of Gemmell's work. Any recommendations on which series is his best?

@Elizabeth- how was Dawn Thief?

Hi Shannon

Oooh that's a tricky one. His Drenai series would be the obvious answer. However, I liked some of his later standalone novels such as Morningstar and Knights of Dark Renown.
Dawntheif? It was ok, but nothing amazing. The quest was a bit too easy for my liking.

Knights of Dark Renown looks interesting, I think I'll give it a try. Thanks.

I enjoyed that too. Think I started with Legend. Have not long read two later ones based around the Arthur legend and didn't enjoy them as much.

Legend is a good place to start! My first was Ghost King, an arthurian fantasy. But if I would recommend starting with the Troy books. His last series and perhaps the pinnacle of his work. The thing about Gemmell is that all of his books, standalones and series are brilliant, because you fall in love with the characters.

I echo Noor here and recommend the Troy series, even though I'm only halfway through it. I've read everything else of Gemmell's and TROY: LORD OF THE SILVER BOW is a great place to start.

Another personal favorite of mine is WINTER WARRIORS.

Who do you think is the closest to becoming the new king of heroic fantasy? A few suggestions, James Barclay, Stan Nicholls

Having read pretty much all of Gemmell's books, I can say that he tops even Robert E Howard's "Conan" series. He was a master of action/adventure. Unlike a lot of writers out there, most of his stories are self contained tales of adventure between the 250-300 page mark. "Legend" (mentioned earlier) was the first of the Drenai books, so start there. I'll probably reread these puppies for my own research, as Gemmell is a writer to take note of how he did things.

Closest to becoming the new king of heroic fantasy? I haven't read enough of the "new" authors to hazard a guess. I do like Joe Abercrombie, but I've only read the three "First Law" (?) books, which were exceptional. George RR Martin is not it (only my opinion, sorry) but he could be for epic fantasy (but he didn't impress me with his recent effort). Haven't read any James Barclay or Stan Nicholls to comment.

Beyond that, I don't know. Certainly a gap to be filled... but I'm sure there's an heir to the crown out there somewhere, typing away feverishly.... :)

Folks certainly have to understand what heroic fantasy is before they can top Gemmell, as I've seen a lot of would be writers attempt it, by losing it by dolloping too much magic and fantastic creatures into their stories until it becomes more high fantasy than anything. Not saying this is bad, far from it, but it's not heroic fantasy.

I'm a typing :-)

Haven't read Abercrombie yet, but he is on my to-read list. George R R Martin is an awesome writer but I agree, he isn't heroic fantasy, he's more epic or medieval fantasy.

The great thing about Gemmell was that even the books in series like the Drenai books could be read as standalone book, except maybe the Rigante, the Troy and the Skilgannon books. All the previous books I read out of order and liked when I uncovered something that was referred to in book later in the timeline.

I'm a big Gemmell fan. My favourite series is perhaps the Rigante series starting with Sword in the Storm.

And yes, he might well be the best writer of heroic fantasy I've read.

Good luck with the typing, Noor :) (and have fun!)

And yes the nice thing about his books (or most of them anyway) is the standalone point. He really did a lot of things well--I like the way he get his character descriptions across without pages of info, there really is a neat little formula there.

Y'know, I can't recall my favourite... which tells me I haveta read them again! :) I'm been making my way through the Conan books (1-12) and enjoying them. The world building with both Gemmeall and Howard is excpetional, but not overpowering like Martin--I like Martin, but sometimes, yeesh, I spend much more time in the back there looking up who is who!

The only books of Gemmell's I haven't read are "The Dark Prince" which I'll have to get around to, and the Silver Bow series, which, at the time, I was simply too "Troyed out" to attempt.

I imagine they're good... ?

I was 'Troyed' out too! :) but then when he passed away, I felt duty bound to read his last trilogy, and my word, was it a ride! Its like he thought, this is probably going to be my last trilogy, lets make it the best one. The Dark Prince is okay, but I preferred , which follows Parmenian, Alexandera the Greats general.

"It's like he thought this is probably going to be my last trilogy"

Too bad too. I remember in his later efforts he included a full map of the Drenai world. Probably had more plans for that one. Oh well.

Ghost king & its partner book were good but I prefered others that I'd read. I must read the other Drenai that I haven't had the pleasure of.

Noor wrote: "Was David Gemmell the greatest writer of Heroic Fantasy?"

I have really enjoyed Gemmell and have classed some of his works as historical fiction/fantasy, favorite genres of mine. I've read the Drenai, Rigante and Troy series.

But greatest? I'm not sure. Who are we comparing him with? EG, I would have trouble calling him greater than Mary Renault, but they are quite different.

Kernos wrote: "Noor wrote: "Was David Gemmell the greatest writer of Heroic Fantasy?"

I have really enjoyed Gemmell and have classed some of his works as historical fiction/fantasy, favorite genres of mine. I've..."

Different? How so? I haven't come across Mary's work, but how does she fit in the Heroic Fantasy sub-genre?

What's the most obscure David Gemmell book? I.e. one that most of us haven't come across? Have you read this one? Morningstar

I've read that one--not bad, but I think the Hawk Queen ones might have been his earliest? And published only in the UK? Compare those with the likes of Winter Warriors or the Rigante,and the difference is night and day.

(Shakes head) Too bad he passed on.

Quick question for anyone tho, Noor mentioned James Barclay and Stan Nicholls. They any good?

I like low (heroic) fantasy--the Gemmell or Howard kind with just a sprinkle of magic or monsters. Abercrombie was fine as the magic really never overpowered the story (in the first law trilogy, anyway, at least not until the end).

But I don't particularly go for high fantasy anymore.

I've read Morningstar.

Noor wrote: "Kernos wrote: "Different? How so? I haven't come across Mary's work, but how does she fit in the Heroic Fantasy sub-genre? "

She novelized Greek mythical and historical figures. Her series about Theseus and Alexander are superb, IMO. Whether one categorized them as mythic/historical fantasy/fiction, they are certainly heroic fantasies.

Kernos wrote: "Noor wrote: "Kernos wrote: "Different? How so? I haven't come across Mary's work, but how does she fit in the Heroic Fantasy sub-genre? "

She novelized Greek mythical and historical figures. Her s..."

I'll have to check them out some day. Thanks!

Keith wrote: "Quick question for anyone tho, Noor mentioned James Barclay and Stan Nicholls. They any good?

I like low (heroic) fantasy--the Gemmell or Howard kind with just a sprinkle of magic or monsters. Abe..."

James Barclay's Raven stories follow a mercenary band that always seem to be on the front line of making sure the world doesn't end. There are dragons and a well-defined magic system, but Barclay is someone that David Gemmell backed whilst he was alive. A lot of Gemmell fans go on to read him. Stan Nichols wrote the Orcs books, which basically follows an Orc and his warband as they carry out mercenary missions. There are other 'high fantasy' races too, but magic is usually shamanic. Nichols is part of the panel that hand out the David Gemmell Legend awards.

I'm just now reading Legend for the first time and am totally blown away. He is definetely under appreciated in my mind.

I'll say that Howard's Conan is still the best larger than life character I've ever read but Druss is right up there in my top 3-5.

I think Erikson (yes, I know it is technically epic fantasy) does a great job with Heroic fantasy in the sense that Karsa Orlong's character has the same feel that a Druss or Conan has.

I have almost all of his books. I don't think I would list his novels in my absolute top fantasy books, but I've always enjoyed each one and read a couple more than once. Particuarlly liked the Lion of Macedon/Dark Prince novels. Fave book of his has to be Dark Moon. Love the name Tarantio; the "possessed" main character with Dace inside him. That influienced my own fantasy series somewhat.

I read Gemmell like I do Terry Pratchett, easy reading that's great for vacations and travelling. Always entertaining.

Joshua wrote: "I'm just now reading Legend for the first time and am totally blown away. He is definetely under appreciated in my mind.

I'll say that Howard's Conan is still the best larger than life characte..."

Erikson is on my to-read list. MY brothers have a number of his books on their shelves. I'll have to do a stealthy raid the next time I'm over at their place.

Simon (2) wrote: "I have almost all of his books. I don't think I would list his novels in my absolute top fantasy books, but I've always enjoyed each one and read a couple more than once. Particuarlly liked the Lio..."

Simon is shaping to be a pretty decent Heroic fantasy writer too. I'm reading his book to review at the moment. I'll post a link here when I'm done.

Joshua wrote:
I think Erikson (yes, I know it is technically epic fantasy) does a great job with Heroic fantasy in the sense that Karsa Orlong's character has the same feel that a Druss or Conan has."




A lot of my friends have read and enjoyed Erickson, but I think he's more high fantasy than anything--as demigods/gods/and a high use of magic (but, correct me if I'm wrong). I couldn't get into his books however, even after something like 200 pages. His usage of modern expressions put me off. I think all writers will cross a line as to how many colloquial expressions they use (Martin uses a lot of swear words--and while I'm not disputing the age of the f-word--I am disputing why he's using it in a fantasy setting).

But that's just me--and in my own work, I'm guilty of a couple.... just not the extent that Erickson does.

(hmmm why the hell is my reply in italics... damn you Erickson!! ;)

I quite liked him as a child. "Knights of Dark Renown" particularly, and the Jerusalem Man trilogy.

However, he suffered badly from laziness/selling-out. Most of his Drenai novels were carbon copies of one another, with the names changed. Let me guess, there's going to be a taciturn archer, a big not-too-bright-but-wise-and-cunning brawler/wrestler/axeman, a darkness-tinted skilfull swordmaster (probably very attractive), a mysterious and possibly evil spellcaster, and some sort of everyman who doesn't seem that competant at first but proves his worth later on.

The only one of his books I've re-read recently was Legend. I found it quite poorly written, particularly in the first half, and very cliched. However, I did quite enjoy it, particularly toward the end. And perhaps the poor writing improves, given that it was his first (famous) book. although actually I remember that being my favourite Drenai novel (it's also the most innovative).

So... based on what I know, I'd say try him out if you want something pulpy and entertaining, but don't expect too much. [that said, I've heard good things about the Troy series]

Like most writers he got better at his craft as he went on. I was never heavily into the Drenai novels for more or less the same reasons. That said, I always enjoyed them. They were like the "easy listening" of fantasy, and there's nothing wrong with that.

Erikson is definitely High fantasy and his plots are immensely complicated. I just feel that certain characters/threads definitely have an old school sword and sorcery feel to them.

Wastrel wrote: "I quite liked him as a child. "Knights of Dark Renown" particularly, and the Jerusalem Man trilogy.

However, he suffered badly from laziness/selling-out. Most of his Drenai novels were carbon copi..."

I think the formulaic writing is something you see in a lot of series and comes more from pressure from publishers to reproduce books that readers enjoy. Just look at the whole Vampire thing at the moment for example. But Gemmell did it so well that it didn't matter that he used archetypal characters, in fact if anything he perfected archetypes and themes with every book and then turned out the Troy books. Furthermore, each series was led by a main character, e.g. Druss, Tenaka, Skilgannon, Jon Shannow, that you can't but help loving.

We seem to be struggling to define what is Heroic fantasy. This is what Wiki has to say:

Heroic fantasy is a sub-genre of fantasy which chronicles the tales of heroes in imaginary lands.[citation needed] Unlike stories of sword and sorcery, heroic fantasy narratives tend to be intricate in plot, often involving many peoples, nations and lands. Grand battles and the fate of the world are common themes, and there is typically some emphasis on a universal conflict between good and evil.[citation needed]

Frequently, the protagonist is reluctant to be a champion and is of low or humble origin, and frequently has royal ancestors or parents but does not know it. Through events usually beyond his control, he is thrust into positions of great responsibility where his mettle is tested in a number of spiritual and physical challenges. Although it shares many of the basic themes of Sword and Sorcery the term 'Heroic fantasy' is often used to avoid the garish overtones of the former.[1]

Which brings me back to my earlier question, who is most likely to be the next king of Heroic Fantasy (based on the Wiki definition provided.

Has anyone read Ghost King? It's the only book I read for David Gemmel. I read it about 3 years ago and I'm surprised to realize I don't remember ANYTHING from it. I mean sure, books we read fade away but we tend to retain SOMETHING from the book. With this book I'm totally clueless. Someone please remind me what it was about~ I tried reading the cover summary and still, no bells.

I read it twenty years ago. Its about a young Uthar Pendragon being metored by legendary warrior king Culain Cunobalin. Its one of the Sipasitari stone novels.

Noor wrote: "I read it twenty years ago. Its about a young Uthar Pendragon being metored by legendary warrior king Culain Cunobalin. Its one of the Sipasitari stone novels."

Just read this back. Sorry, I was typing faster than my tablet could keep up with.

Noor wrote: "I read it twenty years ago. Its about a young Uthar Pendragon being metored by legendary warrior king Culain Cunobalin. Its one of the Sipasitari stone novels."

Which novel, Noor?

I did not know Cunobeline (the Hound of Bel) had appeared in any novel. He was King of the Trinovantes in SE Britain from 20-43 CE and lived at least 300 years before Uther could have, if as Geoffrey of Monmouth said, he was the son of Constantine II.

Be that as it may, literary license makes this book sound very interesting to me.

Kernos wrote: "Noor wrote: "I read it twenty years ago. Its about a young Uthar Pendragon being metored by legendary warrior king Culain Cunobalin. Its one of the Sipasitari stone novels."

Which novel, Noor?

I..."

That would be Ghost King. There are a few other characters walking around out of their time too. Aristotle makes quite a few appearances, with the suggestion that he is also Merlin (or known as Merlin in that particular time and place). There are a lot of intriguing themes that arise in this book, e.g. who is the lady in the Lake?

Weirdly, iirc, that uther pendragon idea was the basis for Ghost King itself (weird arthurian), the Drenai novels (epic fantasy) AND the Shannow novels (post-apocalyptic gunslingers). Can't accuse the man of not making the most of his ideas!

Wastrel wrote: "Weirdly, iirc, that uther pendragon idea was the basis for Ghost King itself (weird arthurian), the Drenai novels (epic fantasy) AND the Shannow novels (post-apocalyptic gunslingers). Can't accuse ..."

Agreed.

Noor wrote: "...e.g. who is the lady in the Lake?"

That is a big question. It'd be interesting to explore the saga from Her POV.

Didn't Stephen Lawhead do that in his Pendragon Cycle books? Charis was the Lady of the Lake in that. I read them YEARS ago so can't quite remember.

Haven't read the Pendragon Cycle. In the Gemmell book, the Lady in the Lake is just Uthar's girlfriend who thrusts his sword up into the mist in another dimension, and it emerges from the lake just when he needs it.