Proto-Science Fiction discussion

What do we want to include as "Proto-Science Fiction"? In the "Proto-Science Fiction Background and Examples" thread I gave some early examples that I assume we would include, but where is the cutoff? For instance, we certainly wouldn't include something as recent as Larry Niven, but do we really want to include H.G. Wells and Jules Verne, or are they too modern?

Hopefully no one takes this as bad form, but, here's my perspective:

I found a page from a Washington State University professor (Delahoyde) discussing proto-science fiction, and the whole page is a decent read for the purpose of deciding the cutoff, but this stood out to me:

One could point to Chaucer's Canon's Yeoman's Tale or Mary Shelley's Frankenstein or several other works as early science fiction pieces. But science fiction is really "a creation of the later nineteenth century" since earlier fiction involving space travel and such was "presented in a merely fantastic or satirical light" (Parrinder 23). "Most early or 'proto' science fiction was the product of writers who stood at some distance from the science of their time and set out to mock, satirize, discredit, or at best to play with it. I am thinking here of Lucian, Godwin, Cyrano de Bergerac, Swift, Voltaire, Mary Shelley, and Poe" (Parrinder 24).

After that, Delahoyde continues on, mostly chronologically, citing examples of later and later science fiction. If we go with his suggestion, we should actually exclude Verne and Wells.

In the end, this group is what we want it to be and I think it really comes down to two options: (1) if we want to include Verne, Wells and other late 19th century or even early 20th century work, we can just rename the group to "proto and early science fiction" or similar and the criteria will be rather loose OR (2) we can draw a strict line somewhere between proto and early science fiction and try to stick with it. If we go with this route, we need to try to decide some objective criteria, such as a year for cutoff...

What are everyone's thoughts?

I think that as Goodreads is essentially for pleasure reading rather than academic goals then we needn't be too strict with the criteria. No matter where we draw a cutoff line, there will always be debate anyway.

Steve wrote: "I think that as Goodreads is essentially for pleasure reading rather than academic goals then we needn't be too strict with the criteria. No matter where we draw a cutoff line, there will always b..."

Good point. I'll give it until Monday night to see if anyone else wants to weigh in, but otherwise I'm thinking we should go with more of option 1. I've done some searching and there don't seem to be any "early" SF groups on GR and I'm finding some interesting 19th and early 20th century books we could discuss, so it'd be nice to be inclusive.

Hello everyone,
I think it's a good idea to be flexible just at the start. We can always make the criteria narrower in the future if we want to. I've been on a few projects at work where the decisions that were made at the start to limit the project had a big and sometimes negative effect later on. The guidelines Chris found in Delahoyde sound excellent (you did some good fast research there Chris!), but maybe as we get more members, some of them will have some illuminating insights too.

Chris wrote: "...we can just rename the group to "proto and early science fiction" or similar..."

Here's my suggestion for a possible new title if such ever becomes necessary:

"Proto-Early Scientific Technology In Fictional Erudite Records Of Unlimited Scope."

Or similar. :-)

Richard wrote: "Here's my suggestion for a possible new title if such ever becomes necessary:

"Proto-Early Scientific Technology In Fictional Erudite Records Of Unlimited Scope."

Or similar. :-) "

LOL

Ok, sounds like we're not going to be very strict about publication date as far as what to consider for reading and/or discussion in the group. This means that by academic standards we may not stick strictly to "proto-science fiction" and may even hit up things in the late 19th and even early 20th centuries at times (especially lesser-known or otherwise ground-breaking works).

Any dissenting opinions? If not, I'd like to start a nomination thread for our first group read!

I have no objections, Fearless Leader!

Considering the fact that both Wells and Verne share the title of "Father of Science Fiction," it seems downright silly to exclude them. Not only silly, but irresponsible. Any real fan of science fiction would not only include the two, but idealize them, in the same sense that a true fan of fantasy would idealize William Morris.
Now, addressing the mention of Mary Shelley: she was more a science fiction author than a horror writer, and in my opinion, she has more to offer this group than she would to groups more devoted to the areas she is often brought up in. Not only is Frankenstein addressing issues of medical and scientific ethics that we still face today, but her other, lesser known novel The Last Man is more akin to science fiction's sub-genre of apocalyptic literature than to any satire or fantasy of the late Gothic Period. That's all I'll say about that.
As for not including Poe--well, let me just say, Penguin didn't publish a collection of science fiction stories by Poe because he wasn't highly influential to the genre.

It's news to me that Poe wrote science fiction, but then again I remember reading The Purloined Letter, which was a detective story. So I guess he was versatile and had a lot of poe-tential.

I was able to locate the book The Cambridge Companion to Science Fiction containing a chapter "Science Fiction Before the Genre", which is referenced as discussing Poe's contribution towards defining science fiction.

It's available on Google Books with a partial preview (http://books.google.com/books?id=55wUHXiay-gC&lpg=PP1&pg=PA18#v=onepage&q&f=false), from which I was able to find this on pp18:

"The first writer to grapple with this problem in a wide-ranging experimental fashion was Edgar Allen Poe. The earliest poem by Poe to see eventual publication was 'Sonnet - to Science', written in the early 1820s, and his career culminated in Eureka (1848), an extraordinary poetic essay on the nature of the universe newly revealed by astronomical telescopes. The imaginative thread connection these two works ran through Poe's entire career. As his appreciation of the aesthetics of scientific discovery grew, his attempts to find literary means of communicating and celebrating the wonders of science became more varied and more inventive."

It goes on to mention, "Poe's lunar voyage story 'Hans Phaal'".

Anna wrote: "I always thought of Poe as horror maybe bordering on fantasy, but not really sci-fi. I'm only familiar with the often anthologized stories though. Tell-Tale Heart, The Fall of the House Usher, The ..."

I have a collection of his science fiction: The Science Fiction of Edgar Allan Poe. I highly recommend it if you're interested in something different by Poe.

Thanks. I simply wasn't aware of these stories either. I should read these.