Zombies! discussion

As a zombie writer, I don't read many stories(I watch movies though - this is where i'll come from). Sorry if it comes off as being boorish and spamtacular, I'll try not to self-refer too much.

But my preference is slow zombies. Beyond that there's always the high attrition rate with the characters and not knowing who will become infected and die. I also 'prefer' the realistic situation where sometimes the bad guys win and the heroes lose.

I detest smart zombies. And fast zombies(28 Days/Weeks Later being an exception).

We've been talking about the zombie uprising since Night of the Living Dead came out in 1968. Some people have plans in place for the zombie apocalypse, as unrealistic as it is. They're fun to make. In part I used this angle in my own work. Zombies as the real world imitating art. -> Don't know how it rates.

Edit: I also feel that zombies, no matter how horrible and frightening, are nowhere near as dangerous as the fellow survivors. zombies are straight forward and predictable. If they see/hear you they'll try to catch and eat you. Humans, you never know what they're going to do. Throw in some religion, stress or other types of crazy and you have a delightful wildcard.

Any novel I read (and enjoy) needs to have well developed characters that I actually care about. This is what creates a page turner for me. I also like a good dose of gore or suspence....or both! My biggest pet peeve is the information dump. I want to discover the story along with the characters not be told everything in a neat tidy package.

I agree with Kilgallen on his first two points. If you aren't interested in the characters and they don't have the 'feel' of real people, it's hard to care about their fate. I hate it when an author spends all his time making his central character(s) three dimensional but brings in secondary characters just to be offed in some fashion. Who are these folks and why should we care?

Personally, I don't mind knowing a bit more than the characters, since it builds suspense knowing what may be in store for them. However, it's also great if the writer can toss in a surprise or two, taking the plot into an unexpected turn.

As a zombie author I really agree with all of you. But while the slow zombies are easy to kill...where is the entertainment value in that? Yes, I can kill off several hundred zombies but it's the surviving characters (I'll lose a few during the writing) that are the key.

The overly fast zombies are a buzz kill for me. But a partially reasoning zombie now there is a twist like Dawn of the Dead. Not overly smart, but able to reason on a base level like trying to figure out they won't die if they sink to the bottom of a river to get to the other side.

The characters are everything. I use zombie points of view in my novels which gives it a bit of a twist. Even my zombies are more than two dimensional characters.

The idea of someone harnessing zombies for their own ultimate gain is the premise behind my third novel. While I remain true to the basic form of zombies (decaying flesh, human eating, brains, etc) there has to be something new to the story which attracts a reader besides the gore. Otherwise it is the same-ol'-same-ol'.

I was watching "Diary of the Dead" the other night and got a kick out of one of the early scenes, when they are still making a student film, where the characters talk about why their mummy has to be so slow. The 'director' explains that it is to set it up, let the hero/heroine get away, only to be trapped by the monster later in the film. Pretty much how most zombie movies do build towards the climax.

As yet another zombie author, let me add my own two cents.

I prefer slow zombies, but there have to be a lot of them. Dozens, at least. Like in The Walking Dead, Patient Zero, or The Rising. That feeling of being overwhelmed no matter what you do is disturbing.

Good characters are also a necessity. If you don't care about the survivors, why bother continuing to watch or read?

Finally, writers have to bear in mind that the fans follow zombie apocalypse fiction for the action. We want to read about hospitals filled with the living dead and a handful of people fighting their way out. The gore factor is optional. Some authors like myself use it copiously, others not as much. But if there's not a lot of gut-munching and brain-smashing, you'll lose the fans really quick. (Look how even die hard fans were complaining about the slow pace of the second season of The Walking Dead.)

Dejavu! hahah! Giving you a hard time Rutger!

I gauge whether a book is "good" or not by how much my mind wanders (or not). If I physically cannot stop myself from turning a page, it's a gooder. If I find my mind wandering and I have suddenly read 5 pages without actually reading it, I know I'm a bit bored.

One example was The Walking Dead: Rise of the Governor. I think I read it in 2 days....it was also the weekend of the Season premiere so I also may have been anxious for a fix. I read some reviews on it, and there were a bunch of comments about it not being deep (or something to that effect)...I mean, what did they expect?!

Just finishing up Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Zombies, and there was alot of discussion with Mr. Romero, in that a good story is never about the zombies per say, it's about the people...I think I agree with him.

For me, the story must be character-driven above all else. The absence of deep, realistic characters is a glaring fault in most zombie fiction. Too many well-intentioned authors miss the boat when trying to re-create a zombie action movie on the page.

As for slow vs. fast zombies - both have their merits. When the 90s remake of NOTLD pointed out the obvious fact that you can WALK past a slow zombie, the notion (and necessity?!) of a fast, aggressive zombie was a foregone conclusion. I think it's all about context.

The zombies can either be fast or slow, its the story that should dictate the pace.

My two penneth, of course.

I'm fine with Fast or Slow, or even the slow evolving into fast (ala Rise Again), but I've come to the conclusion that there's one thing that absolutely makes or breaks a zombie book for me (and important note - this is NOT true with zombie movies): getting to witness the breakdown of society. If the book is just like - 'oops, we're in the midst of the zombie apocalypse but we didnt notice till it was full blown because we don't get out much' then I'm immediately off the bandwagon and ready to quit. It's absolutely key to me in almost any example, that the book starts out, or at least flashes back to, society before the collapse. If that's absent I'm done for some reason.

This obviously goes hand-in-hand with the character emphasis reiterated in these posts. It's the character building that's so important - here's what I was when thing were normal, and here's who I became or even devolved into after the sh!t hit the fan.

Unfortunately, the mainstream views this as a second-glass sub-genre (like B-movies), even with the mainstream success of books like World War Z. There is so often a caveat - "It was pretty good, for a zombie book." I am waiting for an author to really break through that barrier. Whereas it makes perfect sense for authors to cater to the die-hards who want a "movie in a book", I would love to see one go beyond, creating deep and memorable characters and relationships (dealing with - dare I say it - deep love stories and other complex human situations) that stand up with ANY other novel in print, zombie or not. So, I am always on the lookout for anyone aiming high in that regard. A book where the characters are so well-created that all the zombie stuff is just icing on the cake!

Jason - If you haven't yet done so, check out Pontypool Changes Everything by Tony Burgess. Cerebral zombie novel with complex narrative and thought provoking premise.

Dave

Dave wrote: "Jason - If you haven't yet done so, check out Pontypool Changes Everything by Tony Burgess. Cerebral zombie novel with complex narrative and thought provoking premise.

Dave"

I was going to suggest that one, it's the next one on my list actually.

I didn't mean that a zombie book can't be deep, or shouldn't be, I just meant that most of them aren't, and I don't expect or require them to be. Therefore when I see people's reviews on a book that has so obviously been written for pure entertainment, I begin to question why they would choose to read said book.

Jason, you make a very good point with regards to the caveat within the genre. There is no reason we shouldn't expect excellence and intelligence within the genre as there is so much metaphorical, sociological, cultural, and ideological themes to work with.

Alexis, I agree with you. I don't think the genre has to be anything it is not already. I think people are drawn to it because they can rely on what it provides. However, what you point out is exactly what I was getting at. There is no reason not to expect excellence and intelligence in a genre with so much potential. I read different books to gain different things, and I don't expect an enlightening experience each time. I am just waiting to be "wowed" by someone who breaks through walls. It's one of the reason I keep reading the genre (and watching its' movies) - it's an eternal search for me.

Jason , have you yet to come across a zombie film that has "wowed" you? I think that there is a lot of mediocrity within the genre, and sometimes we just settle because our expectations are so low. When I think about it, 28 Days Later stands out as one of the better ones. I thought it was actually quite beautiful in all aspects (music, story, hint of social commentary, etc.)

I have really been enjoying the diary style: Dead Inside: Do Not Enter, Zombies: A Record of the Year of Infection. I think the interdisciplinary take on the genre lends itself quiet well. It makes it somewhat more "real".

I've also tried a few post apocalyptic stories without zombies, and it always seems so unfulfilling...like something is missing...zombies perhaps?! hahaha!

With regards to zombies being the icing on the cake, I agree, and perhaps that's what the second season of the Walking Dead has been about-what is it like to be human in this world?

Rutger, I have your book earmarked! I haven't forgotten!

Alexis - Though I have enjoyed a number of books (and films) in the genre, I have neither been "wowed" nor scared by any that I can recall. There are some that have really enjoyed, but I would have to say "wowed" would be reserved for only the very best. Maybe that's an unrealistic goal, but I enjoy the search!

For movies, there are a number I like for different reasons. I think the Dawn of the Dead remake was very well done, and 28 Weeks Later better than the first. I also have personal nostalgia for the 90s Night of the Living Dead remake. :-)

For books, my impression actually changes as time passes since reading - do others find the same thing? Since I read a novel over multiple sittings, my impressions are affected by a number of outside factors. Often, it is the impression I am left with a week or two after reading that sways my recommendation.

I finished reading "After Life" by Jeron Lee Knuth (an indie author) a few weeks ago, and though I felt inclined to nit-pick some things, I have to say it was one of the best zombie books I've read - better than some of the more widely published, known authors. What all went into that impression? Hard to say, but that is what I was left with, regardless of any imperfections.

I think you are right - we settle for mediocrity in the genre, and maybe we get what we deserve if we give our hard earned cash for products that wouldn't cut it in other genres. But that may be another topic altogether. :-)

I am excited to explore post-apocalyptic novels, as I enjoy them so much in film. I actually like these "slow" episodes of The Walking Dead. Without the unique people, formulaic zombie stories can get old after a while. I enjoy the character studies, seeing how different people process these dire situations.

hmmm. Jason, how would you define being "wowed"? I am guessing you are looking for something cerebral to blow your mind? I agree with you, but I also think it's important to define what exactly it is that you are looking for.

This 28 Days Later business is interesting, I was not a fan of the 2nd, but I've spoken to a number of people on Goodreads who liked 28 Weeks Later much better than the first. For me, 28 Days was original, beautiful, artsy, and just put together so well. 28 Weeks was just missing that auteur signature (probably because it was an American production instead of British).

Absolutely! I find my frame of mind and/or environment completely affects my interpretation when reading a novel. For instance, with The Rise of the Governor, I read it just before season 2 started of The Walking Dead, so I think I gobbled it up due to anticipation.

I've heard of Afterlife, perhaps I should grab it if you recommend it?

I should rephrase my comment about Post Apocalyptic novels, I have read some anthologies, and I found there was too much sci-fi, which I'm not the hugest fan of.

Alexis - good point, and I must admit that being "wowed" is something subjective that is a bit hard to define, except that I know it when I experience it. I can say that it will be something that sets a new standard is some area, stepping out ahead of the pack. Not different just for the sake of being different, but truely well-crafted is a unique, recognizable way.

As for After Life, I would give it a try. I got it for $0.99 on Kindle and was well worth it. It is a fairly short book, and my biggest compliant was that it could have been longer and explored some things even more.

I grabbed Afterlife for my E Reader for $0.99 :) I'm about halfway through. Thanks for the suggestion.

I grabbed Afterlife as well based on the recommendation.

And, I agree with Jason. I like a new take on the zombie genre--something different but not so weird and outside the norm that I can't buy into it. I've read The Memoirs of the Walking Dead and liked it because it had a different take (it's from the point of view of a zombie and how he views everything). It has classic horror and humor. But, it does have quite a few editorial errors in it and the ending strayed a bit, but I enjoyed it regardless. For me, it was different than humans trying to survive zombies. Oh, and Atticus for the Undead was an interesting read as well--a zombie is accused of murdering a girl (set in today's time) and is in need of a lawyer to defend him. Again, interesting and a different take.

But finding a book that is interesting and new and "well-crafted" as Jason said, can be hard to do.

Excited to read Afterlife.

Jason wrote: "Alexis - good point, and I must admit that being "wowed" is something subjective that is a bit hard to define, except that I know it when I experience it. I can say that it will be something that ..."

So then, since this group represents a pretty decent demographic of zombie lit fans, and there are a number of authors on the site, perhaps we should identify moments where we have been wowed, engulfed, inspired, challenged, etc. by books we have read (zombie or other)?

Since we have established our acceptance of mediocrity, lets help define what makes a novel extraordinary!

For me what makes a good zombie novel is the characters. I want to have characters that I can root for rather than characters that are just there to be the next course at the zombie buffet. Some good zombie novels that got me feeling for the characters were The Rising (though I was disappointed in the ending). I feel like the City of the Dead sequel was a fan/publisher forced book that didn't have the same feel and was basically there for closure (scripted a bit too much like the Land of the Dead movie). I didn't care for the "smart" zombies even though I would consider them more akin to demons possessing human bodies than zombies. Another good series was Rot and Ruin/Dust and Decay. Both of those focus on the characters rather than the zombies and get you to invest in them as you read.

With regards to fast/slow zombies. I like the introduction of fast zombies because it adds a new element to the story for the characters to have to deal with. I understand the scientific reasoning for slow zombies (decay of muscle tissue, etc) but don't mind my zombies being able to run. For the record, I don't consider 28 days/weeks later to be zombies because those people are still alive, just infected with a virus that makes them hunger for violence. Infected humans can still be fun as your zombie equivalent but i consider zombies to be risen from the dead and thus should not have their full mental faculties.

I also like my zombie novels to be unique. There is a short story at the end of the New Dead anthology written purely as Twitter posts. I think that is one of the best stories in the book because of its uniqueness and you still can grasp the fear of the main character despite her limit to 140 characters per post.

James, you MUST read Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Zombies. This book has a section which explains why we may classify 28 Days later as a zombie movie! Although, I'm sure there will always be the debate ;)

I think I've read that one with the twitter posts...As I said, I really like that "diary" form of zombie writing-I find it very effective and just plain different. James, have you read Zombie Apocalypse!? It has that same feel. Although I thought the source of the zombies was a little silly, the entire anthology is connected through a series of blog, diary, letter, memos. It's certainly one that sticks out for me

Alexis wrote: "James, you MUST read Everything You Ever Wanted to Know About Zombies. This book has a section which explains why we may classify 28 Days later as a zombie movie! Although, I'm sure..."

I think I glanced through that book (everything about zombies) in the book store back during halloween. I did remember seeing a chapter about how only the Return of the Living Dead series is the only one that had zombies desiring brains. I also glanced through the zombie combat manual. I found that interesting because a week or so later I watched a show on the history channel about the history of zombies and before they cut to commercial, they had the author of the combat manual give quick demonstations on some of his recommendations from the book.

Another good zombie book I read was Death Troopers. Its set in the star wars universe and combines two of my favorite genres (zombies and star wars). Red Harvest is another star wars/zombie mix but takes place in a different era so the star wars heroes are not the same group from the movies.

Why does it seem impactful writing is so hard to describe, yet recognizable? It can be difficult to dissect.

The Forest of Hands and Teeth by Carrie Ryan stood out to me for several reasons. The author was able to effectively pull me into her world, and merge both the emotional story of a teenage girl with unique settings and situations that still paint vivid pictures in my mind months after reading.

For me, the biggest detractor was what seemed to be nebulous descriptions of the protagonist's emotions and physical attraction to her love interest. However, I reserve most judgement since teenage girls may feel the descriptions were amazingly accurate. Plus, it certainly didn't make me put down the book.

I very much enjoy authors with the ability to help me see a unique scene, or come to know a person, without giving me a laundry list of details. I also really appreciate a story that is truly unique and not superficially different just to try to be clever.

A perfect example of this is a short story I read months ago that has continually stayed with me for it's unique (albiet somewhat twisted) storyline. I borrowed the book and no longer have it, so am not sure of the author or story name. I believe it was in The Living Dead volume 2. In the story setting, reanimated bodies could be readily purchased for a number of uses, and the protagonist kept a separate apartment for one because of the unique history he shared with it. I still feel it was one of the most unique and memoriable stories I have read in the genre. If anyone knows the author, story name and book to post it for reference, I would greatly appreciate it.

I was so excited to watch that show on zombies, but then I realized it was not available in Canada :( Perhaps it aired but I sure couldn't find it.

Jason, I know EXACTLY what story you are referring to, and I used to have the anthology. However, unfortunately this summer, we lost our house to a fire and my collection was lost. I'm pretty sure it wasn't thee Living Dead 2, it could have been The Undead: Zombie Anthology, or maybe The book of All Flesh? I think the title was the name of the zombie he was keeping...But I could be wrong...perhaps I'm just not even close to being of any help!

Another author chiming in...It seems to me that how humanity deals with a zombie plague is the most important and interesting aspect...and the more personal the better (this is why The Walking Dead works so well on TV). I've never been all that interested in myriad versions of zombie biology or pathology (though if you're a 14 or 15 year old boy, I understand the fascination...sort of like D&D with the undead)...the behavior manifested in the living is what interests me. A zombie is basically a slow-moving shark that walks on land...mindless...and terrible in its single-mindedness. It's an engine for creating tension. It's like knowing you have cancer and that it will kill you in six months...only this cancer promises you an agonizing death with your guts spilling out onto the ground...how do you deal with that? Some people will be noble...others will...behave badly...I also see the whole zombie sub-genre as a comment on our society's desensitization to violence and growing lack of empathy for others (in addition to Romero's original jabs at rampant consumerism). A great deal of zombie fiction is little more than a first-person shooter in prose form...

A solid plot, interesting characters, exciting situations, a story that reads easily and flows.
I like added mystery to an ending because it makes me think, I get to formulate my own ideas on what happened or what happens next.
Does the story make me laugh? Does it make me cringe? A good story can affect you in those kinds of ways and that always make me want to read more.

Nothing angers me more than stupid characters. I get not everyone watches Zombie movies but unless you live under a rock you should know at least something about them. Even if it is they want to eat you.

I love creative kills cause they are just fun to read. I also want people to not whine around going we have no food, we have no water. Well get your ass to a library and find a survival book and figure it out.

I do not like Smart Zombies (some intellect is fine but were talking full brain function smart) and I absolutely loathe zombie romances. When Authors started trying to make zombies like vampires I wanted to scream.

Well...based on the quality of the fine acting in the series...Bella in the Twilight movies is pretty much a zombie as far as I can tell...I wish she WOULD start eating Edward...that's a paranormal romance I could actually sink my teeth into...

My wife and I own a small used bookstore, which is cool since we are able to get a real sense of what people are reading...so we'll take a lot of stuff home to try out...and a lot of it is just awful...zombie romance...yes, it exists...but what kind of idiot would french kiss a zombie? And sex? Well...the notion of it just reminds me of Sam Kinneson's (sp?) old leper whore jokes...

Kristin wrote: "Nothing angers me more than stupid characters."

Me too. OTOH, many stories would end in the opening act if people didn't act stupidly.

One of my pet peeves is this area is the stereotypical religious fanatic (e.g. The Mist).

Randy wrote: "Kristin wrote: "Nothing angers me more than stupid characters."

Me too. OTOH, many stories would end in the opening act if people didn't act stupidly.

One of my pet peeves is this area is the ste..."

Oh come on...I LOVE Mrs. Carmody...tho they should have capped her **s much earlier in the story...sadly, these people exist...I live in a small town in the sticks and these idiots are everywhere...

I don't want each of them to be superheros just use common sense.

Agreed, I find it hard to relate to a superhero zombie slayer.

Scott wrote: "Another author chiming in...It seems to me that how humanity deals with a zombie plague is the most important and interesting aspect...and the more personal the better (this is why The Walking Dead..."

Scott, I think you summed up my addiction to the genre nicely :) My brother in law got upset with me when the Walking Dead was on TV. who knew that the show was not, in fact, a psychology textbook?!

I don't mind whether they are fast or slow zombies, for me as long as the story has good characters and some originality in it then I will generally find it an entertaining and good read.

As much as I enjoy the breakdown of society in Z novels. Ultimately Zombie carnage is the main reason I read the genre. I wanna see some unique deaths on both sides. I read a Zombie book a few days ago and like ugh it was sooo frustrating. The Author skipped over the Gore and ultimately was rated harshly because of that. Anyone can write a zombie book about the breakdown of society, but you have to be Damn Good to write the Gore.

I read zombie books for the tension. The hurry to find safety. Good character development is another key but it has to be tempered with what is happening in the world. It is a hurry wait world so there will be downtime. I hate superhuman normal guys who can run forever and guns that have endless clips.

I'm also a zombie author, though I tend to watch movies more than read zombie books. I like characters that are well-developed and also have the ability to evolve throughout the story. I also like when there is an unexpected twist. Of course, those elements count for everything I read. Boring characters that don't learn from the situation make me not want to finish reading. When I was writing my novel, I couldn't decide on fast or slow zombies. Both have their merits in horror, but both also have that 'is it even possible' factor. I decided that when the zombies are fresh they move as fast as regular people. As they start to putrify (which takes longer than regular decay in my world), they start moving slower.

I have to say I'm amazed at the number of zombie books - and growing - Yes I have one coming out next year too. I only began reading them last year (after mine was done) and was shocked to see I have 40 in my reading list - and I still haven't found them all. Vampires (the Dracula type) were so popular for so long, and now zombies seem to have surpassed it. Do you see an end in it? (Hopefully not!)

I think one of the things that's exacty wrong is the caveat Jason mentioned, "for a zombie book."

If after I've read a book, the first thing I think of when someone asks me what it's about is the "type," be it zombie, or time travel, or a conspiracy, or a private detective, the book has failed.

In the (paraphrased) words of Robert B. Parker, a book should be a good book first, a good genre book second. To me, that means more attention should be paid to the crafting of the story than teh_OMG zombie mayhem. A good story will be a good story regardless of the genre/backdrop you find it.

For instance, take The Warriors. I love that movie. It's a dark action piece, but it's still about the characters, about how they're coping with the situation they find themselves in, and the idealized vision of home they have, only to be let down when they get back to the reality of it. (Well, Swan at least.) I think that story wouldn't have changed one bit if you changed the other gangs in New York to vampires or zombies or killer cyborgs or ninja assassins, or if you changed New York to the Crab Nebula.

I don't think the type of zombie should make a difference if the story is good. That might be one of our failings as readers, that we're mostly strict traditionalists in that respect. How many people turn their nose up at fast zombie stories only because of that? Give the story a chance, at least.

[/soapbox]

Good points on a good book being more than a genre story. If the tale depends too much on just getting in the expected hits (I.e. child in peril gets saved at the last minute, for example) you start not caring.

Echoing an earlier comment, zombies are essentially horror, you need some gore. I think in small doses tho so it's not totally gross out. But I tried to be humorous sometimes in my descriptions. Gotta have a little fun, too. Coming 2013: Girl Z: My Life as a Teenage Zombie

For me, its all about character development and connection with other characters. I think I know what I don't like more than like actually.

For instance, I hate how in many z books, there are a group of survivors with some serious mental patients...the "loose cannon" types. Not that this doesn't exist, but they take the bad guy persona and increase it beyond any reasonable portrayl. Outside of grumping and maybe making a few side moves, even the most misfit of groups will find common ground in the critical areas.

Also, bandits. Here is a part that really bugs me. The roving bands of raiders and whatnot are still people. If they come across a group of people that took down 2-3 of their men and are forted up, they won't stay around and keep attacking until every one of them is lost. opportunists tend to hit soft targets and avoid hard targets...hell, even a single one of them taken down would probably be enough to make them move on to easier prey.

What I like generally is a good mix of truely teeth gnashing madness moments, and peaceful minor victorys that give a bit of hope and reason to not blow your brains out. The fighting your arse off for a day straight and duck into some random area as a last ditch effort to escape to find a powered room with hot showers and food cache sort of thing to make the whole "safe room" ending of a event worthwhile.

As said by Thom, Make a good book first, then make it a zombie book (paraphrased). Decide where you want the story and characters to go, regardless of the zombies. Who falls in love with who, who betrays, who is the hero, etc...once you have that, fill in the gaps with zomboids

I also need believability. A certain show recently wanted us to believe a single zombie could cleanly devour a person in 30 minutes time, that isn't believable. If a single zombie is gonna devour someone entrails, bones and clothing scraps should be littering the ground.

Your typical zombie could not devour a person in so short a time. Also, the zombie is only going for the fleshy bits and I don't believe could gnaw through the bones.

Kristin (Blood,Sweat and Books) wrote: "I also need believability. A certain show recently wanted us to believe a single zombie could cleanly devour a person in 30 minutes time, that isn't believable. If a single zombie is gonna devour s..."

I 100% agree.

Steve wrote: "Your typical zombie could not devour a person in so short a time. Also, the zombie is only going for the fleshy bits and I don't believe could gnaw through the bones."

Exactly hence why I mentioned all that stuff littering the ground. I think small bones they might consume but the large ones would be tossed aside once picked clean.

You don't think they'd go for the marrow?

Yum. Yum.