Into the Forest discussion

"King Thrushbeard" is, in some ways, a beauty and the beast story meets taming of the shrew, without the fun of Moonlighting.

A princess turns down all of her suitors, and goes a step further when she pokes fun at one. Her father vows to marry her off to the next man who comes along, who in this case is a beggar. Off she goes, treated horribly, and only to discover at the end of the tale that she has, in fact, married the man who she made fun of and who loves her.

It's a strange tale. Andersen has a version of it, but there the prince rejects the princess at the end. In the Grimm's "Thrushbeard" that doesn't happen. The tale is about not only a woman being taught her place in the world, but also, like Beauty and the Beast, learning to live her father behind. However, today such tales are, rightly to me, not as popular. We do see them, or at least variations of them in soap operas, movies, and romance novels. Yet, today those stories are mainly "for" women. Why such the use of the tale or the motif there?

Interesting--I'd never heard of King Thrushbeard before!

Can you provide links to some resources / collections? I'd like to read at least one before I discuss.

The story appears in most collections of Grimms' stories and there is at least one picture book version of it. It shouldn't be difficult to find and likely is available online through Project Gutenberg or Google Books or possibly even SurLaLune.

http://www.surlalunefairytales.com/ki...

By that title my library system only has it in ILL, but I've read the one at the link (Thank You Chris!).

I've no idea why the motif would be in movies etc. as I don't participate in popular culture. In fact, perhaps the reason I don't is because those media tend to use unhealthy motifs like this one.

I mean, if the father had wanted a less snooty daughter, he should have raised her so in the first place. And what on earth prompted Thrushbeard to love her in the first place? How could he have guessed that she would so effectively 'her lesson' - ? Def. an odd story. If someone does like it, or does think the theme has value, I wish they'd write a version that reveals its relevance, appeal, or value.

Thank you so much for providing the link to the King Thrushbeard tale, Chris (see above). I'd never read it before, and to be honest, it was rather cathartic in this age of Paris Hilton and the KARDASHIANS! Ordinarily I don't care for stories that "put women in their place", but I had to nod my head with all of the celebutantes these days. Now if only it could be made into a reality show starring Lindsay Lohan...

Good point Diane!

I think that part of the point is a sort of two-pronged "Beauty and the Beast" theme. Not only must the man be loved despite his unpleasant appearance and so overcome that very deficit (the traditional angle), but the woman must also be loved despite her unpleasant personality and so, hopefully, overcome *that* deficit. It's a story about not only looking past what is ugly, but also using love to change it.

Granted, there are some flaws with that theory and with the way in which the story presents it, but if put in the context of when it was written, it makes some sense. Arranged marriages were more common (not universal, by any means, but absolutely more common). In an arranged marriage, you wouldn't have gotten to pick and choose your partner's strengths and flaws, you just had to live with them. A story about learning to love and accept and maybe even change someone might have been appealing.

On a more basic level, it may speak to the desire to get back at somebody for hurting you, especially in love, which is a theme many people would relate to.

Katie wrote: "I think that part of the point is a sort of two-pronged "Beauty and the Beast" theme. Not only must the man be loved despite his unpleasant appearance and so overcome that very deficit (the tradit..."

Interesting interpretation!

Well I don't know but I would not like a person who is arrogant and makes fun of people. If you would meet a woman like that you probably would get out of her way at best and maybe even like to teach her a lesson. I do not think that fairy tale characters were meant to say "All women/men are like that!". I think they talk about different sorts of people and we all know that there are arrogant women who make fun of others. Usually they have a reason why they are like that and to learn that there are people who are able to love you no matter how you act that does give hope does it not?

Katie, I especially like what you said about trying to improve the chances for love in an arranged marriages. And The Bee, hope for that kind of love is a sweet idea, I agree. Thanks for giving me reasons to appreciate this story!

I would, considering Katie's remarks, if that is why Andersen changed the ending, that need to get back at someone.

In my Kindle version of Grimm's (the free one), the story is entitled "King Grisly-beard." And in Hans Christian Andersen, the similarly-themed story is "The Swineherd." To continue the theme, I'm considering reading, listening to, or watching a film version of "The Taming of the Shrew."

Thanks for moderating, Chris, and for making discussions on such interesting topics possible!

If you watch Shrew, the Elizabeth Taylor version is great.

Ah, yes, I used to own The Swineherd. As I recall, it was presented by Andersen in a manner that made it all seem more reasonable & loving.

Chris wrote: "If you watch Shrew, the Elizabeth Taylor version is great."

I adore Elizabeth Taylor in that version--she's a marvelous, raucous, bawdy mess as only she could be : )

I know the fairytale King Thrushbeard very well - especially from its TV adaptations. If anyone is interested in watching them, here they are:
1) King Thrushbeard/König Drosselbart - Czechoslovakia/West Germany, 1984
(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087580/)
Here it is on youtube with German dubbing: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SrH_AY...
What I love about this adaptation is that not only the princess changes, but the prince/king changes also as he is cured from his overself-confidence (who he thought he was toying with other people and thinking that he is the only one in right?).
Watch it if you speak German at least a little bit, its worth it :).

2) King Thrushbeard/König Drosselbart - Germany 2008
(http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1255954)
- I couldn't find a link for the whole movie but there are clips from it on youtube. Quite good adaptation :).

Hi Ela I know the 1984 Czechoslovakian version which is really good. I do not know the other one but now I can at least remember the German name for the fairy tale. Was wondering about it since I started reading this thread :-)

@the bee: true, true, this is a very good film adaption, saw it recently and am still loving it :)

this is one of my favourite fairy tales, mainly because the princess finally gets what sche deserves!
there are so many tales with princesses demanding unbelievable things from their men - i never got to understand why they want to marry those girls.

I've always loved that one. Although I've read a couple of adaptations where it's a bit more romantic, rather than just her lamenting where her pride got her.

Nickelodeon when I was a kid showed a cartoon series of fairy tales called Grimm's Fairy Tale Classics. There was a King Thrushbeard episode and I thought that one was very good. Although most of those are some of the best told adaptations I've come across.

And I don't know about anyone else, but I've always wondered if Thrushbeard had worked something out with her father. I know it's a fairy tale, but it's a little too convenient that he'd be the very first beggar, and her father seems to forgive her a little too quickly at the end for someone who had thrown her out on her behind earlier in the tale.

But that sort of thing could be explained if they conspired.

And I've always taken Thrushbeard as a wise man. He knows how to start a fire and cook, so he's seen the value in learning more than just kingly things. And the way I've always seen it, he loved the princess because he was a wise enough person to see the good person hiding behind the pride and haughtiness, and to know what to do to bring her out.

To The Bee and Martina: I am really surprised that you are familiar with the 1984 version. May I ask with which dubbing you have seen it? Was it dubbed into English or are you fluent in German or Czech?

Info about the version König Drosselbart Germany 2008 can be also found here along with photos: http://www.rbb-online.de/maerchenfilm...

The German television DasErste makes TV films from fairytales by Brothers Grimm and also some by Andersen. They call the series 6 auf einen Streich - although they filmed about 20 fairytales by now ;). They all have great production: location, costumes, actors...I was actually surprised that Germans really can film fairytales :).
Here is the list of what they filmed: http://www.rbb-online.de/maerchenfilm... Check it out, some of the fairytales are on youtube (e.g. Sleeping Beauty: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgXS_X...) and they are lovely :).

Hi everyone.
I didn't know about King Thrushbeard before reading this thread (thanks Chris for the link).
Do you know if there is any modern retelling of this story?

Of this story, per se, not thatI know of Nanalla. There are various modern forms of Taming of the Shrew. These would include 10 Things I hate About You, Deliver Us from Eva, Kiss Me Kate.

There is Bristlelip, a Davenport film version as well.

Thank you so much. :)

I like the idea of the father and the suitor conspiring. If I were a children's book writer I'd include that in my adaptation.

I like that idea too: that would give a great story which makes me think maybe we should write our own fairy tale :-)Cheryl in CC NV wrote: "I like the idea of the father and the suitor conspiring. If I were a children's book writer I'd include that in my adaptation."

HI Ela I am from Germany and saw the German dubbed versions. I have seen some of those of DasErste as well but I am away from Germany since 2007 and hardly ever go back so my German TV experience is a bit limited. Ela wrote: "To The Bee and Martina: I am really surprised that you are familiar with the 1984 version. May I ask with which dubbing you have seen it?" "

I have ordered The Annotated Classic Fairy Tales by Maria Tatar.
I hope King Thrushbeard is in it.

Nanalla wrote: "Hi everyone.
I didn't know about King Thrushbeard before reading this thread (thanks Chris for the link).
Do you know if there is any modern retelling of this story?"

Hi! I think HEARTLESS, by by Anne Elisabeth Stengl (http://www.amazon.com/Heartless-Tales...), might be a close approximation of a modern retelling, but not exactly so. From time to time, it is offered free in Kindle format, which is how I read it.

Thank you Janette!!
I am going to put it on my TR list.
Did you like it? (can you link me to your review if you wrote one?)

Unfortunately for me, the kindle verion at amazon.com directs me to amazon.it (where I live) and often they don't have it at the same price or free.. :(

I nosed around on Youtube and the entire episode from Grimm's Fairy Tale Classics can be found in parts there. It's called "King Grizzle Beard".