The Bookhouse Boys discussion

As I mentioned on the PALE FIRE podcast, I got 2 copies of LAST EXIT TO BROOKLYN by Hubert Selby, Jr. for Christmas--and so we're doing a giveaway!

To qualify, simply post in this thread. You can talk about anything... if you're new to the discussion group, maybe you want to introduce yourself; maybe you're familiar with some of Selby's other work and want to talk about it; maybe you want to share a creative drink recipe. You can post about anything. We're easy.

So, post away! Feel free to post as many times as you want, but you'll only be counted one time (i.e., posting 10 times will enter your name into the drawing 1 time, not 10). On January 8, I'll put all the names in a hat and draw one at random, at which point I'll announce the winner on the podcast and send him or her a copy of the book (so don't enter if you don't want to give me your address).

Note: The edition you'll receive is the Grove Press paperback, ISBN-13 978-0-8021-3137-9. 304 pp. Courtesy of my loving and generous family. :)

We love hats!...and books!...and drawings!
Thanks, Dave, for your generosity.

Yea, Dave! I'm in, if only because I know my library doesn't have a copy of Last Exit to Brooklyn.

And I'll second the kudos for your generosity. :D

Just finished Part I. This book is very unique, structurally. The paragraphs are all large blocks of text, and each paragraph continues from the previous paragraph rather than indenting normally (kinda like a poem... many examples in PALE FIRE, the poem). The dialog doesn't separate to new lines or have quotation marks. Selby doesn't use apostrophes; he either leaves them out (as in, hes going to get you) or uses a slash (as in, I/ll be there at noon). He creates a lot of interesting compound words by phonetically recreating slang... not just stuff like "getcha," it's everywhere, as in "shut thehellup" or "Whatta yacrazy?"

In terms of plot, it's like a very violent and explicit old greaser film so far. It's playing in my head like a '70s Scorcese movie, MEAN STREETS or TAXI DRIVER or something like that. Grainy, lots of clamor and people talking over each other and background noise, mostly incidental music. Scenes that make you want to wash your hands when you're finished reading them. Dig.

So is this gonna be the discussion thread, or will one of you mods be breaking it off?

The slashes as apostrophes are just so strange. I don't know what to make of them. And the lack of quotation marks really disoriented me in Part II, which has maybe a dozen characters. But it adds greatly to the druggy up-then-down-then-way-up vibe of the scene.

Part II is tense as hell. A dingy apartment full of hard guys and drag queens, and I'm just waiting for the explosion. There's a part in which our POV character reads "The Raven," and it is astounding. This book is raw, son.

This thread'll probably become the discussion thread, yeah. No need to clutter things up, we don't get all that much traffic. :)

Good stuff, man. Looking forward to continuing with this book. It's challenging in all the right ways so far.

Pay close attention to birds in Part II, everybody.

There was Charlie Parker, "The Raven," and............


Shit, I'm going to have to read it again, aren't I?

I thought I was going to buy a print copy, especially since I have a gift card for Powells, but Selby's work seems fairly hard to find in print. I guess it's an e-book for me on this one.

Jim wrote: "There was Charlie Parker, "The Raven," and............


Shit, I'm going to have to read it again, aren't I?"

Swan

Parker, The Raven, and Queen of Swans were the 3 I had in mind. If anyone noticed other references, please post them! :)

Very interesting to me what bird imagery represents in Part II. It's usually about literal freedom and escape, not the ultimately unhealthy, addictive escape of drug abuse. No denying that's the thread connecting them all, though. That and (view spoiler)[young death (hide spoiler)].

Whoops, I got it wrong. Should be "queen of birds," not "Queen of Swans." The swan is mentioned on the same page, though, and I think all the birds symbolize the same thing, so my point hasn't changed.

Dave wrote: "Whoops, I got it wrong. Should be "queen of birds," not "Queen of Swans." The swan is mentioned on the same page, though, and I think all the birds symbolize the same thing, so my point hasn't chan..."
I agree, but would like to add that they comment on the (deluded, drug-fueled) designs Georgette has on Vinnie.
1. Believing that Bird's free and passionate playing will induce Vinnie to love her/make love to her (he's 'blowing love').
2. "The Raven" foreshadows what, somewhere, Georgette knows, that Vinnie is to be her Lenore: lost and pined for. It's NOT going to work.
3. I think 'queen of the birds' and 'swan' are the same thing here. They mentioned opera earlier and she's speaking Italian in that section (even though Swan Lake is Russian). I think she's identifying with Odette, the Swan Queen, from that story. I read it that her denial of Vinnie & Lee's (it was Harry!) sex was like this part of that ballet: The prince is captivated by her beauty as he dances with the imposter. Unbeknownst to Prince Siegfried, the true Odette is watching him from a window. The prince soon confesses his love to Odile, thinking that she is Odette. To Odette’s horror, she flees into the night.

Good points, great reading!

So, Part III was odd... kinda like a shaggy dog joke.

I also admit that I had to re-read a lot of sentences because of my adherence to the late-60s-swinger rather than the early-60s-biker definition of "ballin".

Dave wrote: "So, Part III was odd... kinda like a shaggy dog joke.

I also admit that I had to re-read a lot of sentences because of my adherence to the late-60s-swinger rather than the early-60s-biker definiti..."
I didn't realize until III that this was a series of short stories connected by the neighborhood (or the Greek's).

Yeah, me neither... I'm wondering if it'll all come together by the end, but it seems unlikely. There have been plenty of opportunities to cross over characters and Selby hasn't done it.

EDIT: Strike that. He used Rosie in Parts I and II.

Dave wrote: "Yeah, me neither... I'm wondering if it'll all come together by the end, but it seems unlikely. There have been plenty of opportunities to cross over characters and Selby hasn't done it.

EDIT: Str..."
Harry and Vinnie are mentioned briefly in Part IV.

Matt wrote: "Harry and Vinnie are mentioned briefly in Part IV."

I'm in the middle of Part IV now, and am starting to reconsider. I'm wondering if these are the same characters... the Harry mentioned here isn't the same Harry from Part II, that much is for sure. I wonder if Selby's just throwing out, y'know, names from the neighborhood... every story's gonna have a Tony, a Vinnie, a Harry, a Rosie, an Al. It doesn't matter if it's the same guy or not, it's the same type of guy.

Character in general has fascinated me in this novel. So many of the characters function as scenery, and even the POV characters are fairly archetypal. Yet, I think that's an important aspect of the overall narrative; Selby isn't necessarily trying to get us to care about a particular drag queen or prostitute or whatever, so much as laying out a miasma of disgusting behavior and asking us to engage with it on a human level. I mean, can we really distinguish between Georgette and Goldie and Lee and Camille in Part II? And are we supposed to be able to?

Okay, just finished Part IV.

GROSS.

If this book wants me to hate it, it's doing a hell of a job.

Early controversy!

Dave wrote: "Early controversy!"
I think I'm going to go find the bathroom from Trainspotting. I need a special place to read the rest of this.

Given Selby's reputation, I'm not surprised by Matt's reaction. This is the guy who wrote Requiem for a Dream after all.

Jason wrote: "Given Selby's reputation, I'm not surprised by Matt's reaction. This is the guy who wrote Requiem for a Dream after all."

Never seen it. Knew nothing about Selby before this book (so far, I prefer de Selby). The beginning of "Strike" has me interested, and it's over a hundred pages, so I'm hoping I dig it a little more.

Dave wrote: "Okay, just finished Part IV.

GROSS."

A gut punch for sure. Even Part II with Georgette and co. had some positive bits, but Tralala's story was just a slog through the gutters.

I'm not finding the experience unpleasant, though. Far from it. The pages seem to be turning themselves. I did take a little soul-cleansing break with The God Delusion (ironic!) and some comics.
Just starting "Strike" today.

Jim wrote: "A gut punch for sure. Even Part II with Georgette and co. had some positive bits, but Tralala's story was just a slog through the gutters.

I'm not finding the experience unpleasant, though. Far from it. The pages seem to be turning themselves. I did take a little soul-cleansing break with The God Delusion (ironic!) and some comics.
Just starting "Strike" today."

I've had much the same reaction. But then, I love literature that lives in the darkest recesses of the soul. I can see why a lot of people would be turned off by this book, though... this is something of a Hobbesian narrative--all lives are nasty, brutish, and short. No real heroes or POV characters here, just a lot of awful, awful people treating each other like garbage. Regard for human life is non-existent, and even the slightest measure of empathy is in short supply. It's not a reality with which I'm very familiar, but that makes it an endlessly fascinating fantasy to me because it intentionally picks at the scabs of taboo and revels in the abscess of the human imagination.

If this book wants me to love it, it's doing a hell of a job.

I did not see that coming, Meester Matt. No I didn/t.

Jim wrote: "I did not see that coming, Meester Matt. No I didn/t."

I/m complicated. I wish takrist I could sithere an finish "Strike," but the esplanade ain't gonna walk on itself and the sun is too rare these days.

Whatever this book may be lacking, I gather that having a distinctive voice isn't it.

And yes, I need to start. I just downloaded the e-book tonight.

Dave, when you brought up Salo, and you expressed your interest in that kind of thing, I should have asked you if you've read any de Sade itself.

So I'm askin'.

No, haven't read any... although I probably should. French authors, after all! ;)

Deadline: extended! Desperation: intensified!

Due to -- ahem -- lack of participation, the deadline for the giveaway has been extended to Friday the 13th. Post away there, fellers and fellettes!

Dave wrote: "Deadline: extended! Desperation: intensified!

Due to -- ahem -- lack of participation, the deadline for the giveaway has been extended to Friday the 13th. Post away there, fellers and fellettes!"

I think you mean Georges and Georgettes.

On "Strike:" I don't -- sorry, don/t -- know where this is going yet, but I think I am offended. For years, I served as a union steward (local President for a few terms, even), and the depiction is troubling me greatly. For one thing, hardly any of us get nauseous and weepy after sex.

The rest of it is only marginally less inaccurate. ;)

So lemme get this straight -- in Jason's analogy, I am the lame audience the band plays to while waiting for the cool kids to show up. Have I got that right?

I could really use some emoticons right about now. >:/

Hopefully Luke or Devin or someone will jump in soon to contribute to the discussion, or at least to qualify for the drawing.

Anyway, "Strike." Still working through it. So far Harry is a drunken, glad-handing, cowardly, closeted prick. This part has not grabbed me yet (I'm at the riot aftermath right now), but like Part II, I'm expecting some real fireworks to go off anytime now.

And Goodreads recently added the ebook to the editions list, so I just changed it, but for some reason my progress is still measured in pages rather than percentages. Maybe it's because I originally added a hard copy? Eh, not really a big deal, I suppose.

In my version of Dave's analogy, yes. Unlike Dave, I love and appreciate you. =P

I haven't entered the contest simply because I didn't want anyone to have to ship to Canada.

BUT.

I have a copy of the book and I'm actually going to be reading along for the first time in MONTHS. I'm excited!

Doctor, your special assignment is to act out scenes from the book in your improv shows. We'll chip in for the bail money.

Jim wrote: "So lemme get this straight -- in Jason's analogy, I am the lame audience the band plays to while waiting for the cool kids to show up. Have I got that right?"

Nah, man, I wasn't trying to say anything about you. More than that we only had a single entrant, I wanted to extend the deadline because, well, you already clearly have a copy of the book. The idea was to hopefully expand the discussion by giving away a copy of the book to someone who wouldn't have bought one otherwise... but, we can't make people participate, and I don't want to punish you for being the guy who did. Since Devin has a copy of the book, too, if we don't get any other entrants by Friday and you still want the one I have, it's yours, my man.

Jim wrote: "Anyway, "Strike." Still working through it. So far Harry is a drunken, glad-handing, cowardly, closeted prick. This part has not grabbed me yet (I'm at the riot aftermath right now), but like Part II, I'm expecting some real fireworks to go off anytime now."

The callback to stuff from Part II is part of what's driving me forward in Part V. I'm finding the strike stuff interesting, too, but then I'm a politics junkie. I'm kinda imagining Harry as Lee J Cobb by this point.

Speaking of Part II, though, it seems like we might possibly see the events of that night through Harry's eyes by the end of "Strike." That should be pretty interesting, noting the differences there.

Nerdy writer's note: I really like the perspective in this book. That 3rd person personal perspective, where we're fuzzily somewhere between an omniscient narrator giving us impossible information and actually being inside Harry's head. The handful of times I've used it myself, I've found that this perspective almost compels the sort of ongoing rant with limited punctuation that this novel has been. It's also a great way to get extremely personal with a character while still maintaining a degree of detachment; I think this perspective was chosen because actually living within these characters' heads (a la the first person perspective) would be TOO dismal, but using the traditional third person detached voice wouldn't carry nearly the oomph! of many of these passages.

Been doing some research on Selby this morning. A lot of interesting surprises in his life:

--Selby suffered from extremely poor health for most of his life, and was even diagnosed with a few terminal illnesses in his 20s. He began to write because he was unable to find work after being given a health discharge from the Merchant Marines. Selby's perpetual illness led to an early morphine addiction, which turned into a full-blown heroin addiction by the end of the '60s. He kicked in '69 and never touched drugs or alcohol again even to his death in 2004 (he apparently refused morphine on his deathbed despite being in great pain).

--"The Queen is Dead" and "Tralala" of Last Exit were published as short stories before becoming part of the finished novel. This may be why there are several names duplicated between the two parts that don't represent the same characters.

--Selby wrote in a stream-of-consciousness style (duh). It seems he used the / instead of the ' as part of his punctuation style because it was closer on his typewriter and allowed him to type faster.

--Selby himself called his follow-up to Last Exit, The Room, about a criminally insane prisoner reminiscing about his past, "the most disturbing book ever written" and was unable to read it for decades after completing the work. Given some of the stuff in Last Exit, I shudder to think of what might be between those covers!

--Last Exit was successfully tried for obscenity in 1967 in Great Britain. The decision was reversed the next year, a major turning point in British censorship legislation. (The novel was also banned in Italy, though I don't know if that was ever reversed!)

--Selby appeared in cameos in the 2 film adaptations of his work. In Uli Edel's 1989 adaptation of Last Exit (which also featured Stephen Lang as Harry, Jennifer Jason Leigh as Tralala, Alexis Arquette as Georgette, and Stephen Baldwin, Sam Rockwell, Burt Young, and Ricki Lake as various supporting cast), he was a cab driver; in Requiem for a Dream, he was a prison guard.

This short bio has made me especially interested in whatever connections we might find between this book/author and our next book/author, Father and Son by Larry Brown. Brown, like Selby, came to writing late, was very blue collar, had a military background, struggled with addiction, and died in 2004. He also explored the seamier side of humanity, focused unflinchingly on the lower classes from which he came, and, as a self-taught writer, came at literature from some very non-traditional angles.

I nominate The Tao of Pooh for our next book, then. :S

Matt wrote: "I nominate The Tao of Pooh for our next book, then. :S"

Ha... I've read a little Brown and, while it wasn't all puppies and rainbows by any stretch, it was nowhere near as disturbing as this book has been. I think Brown tended to turn a more sympathetic eye to his characters and try to find out where they came from, how they got to be the way they are. Selby's approach brings these characters into sharp focus almost as immutable forces of nature, making them far less personable to the average reader. (view spoiler)[Tralala, for instance... she is set up in the first 3/4 of Part IV as one of the least likeable characters in the history of fiction, and then the last 1/4 of her story manages to provoke our sympathy on a merely human level; she doesn't deserve kindness for her character, but nobody deserves what she got. (hide spoiler)]

Just found out about this book: The Tender Hour of Twilight. Thought I'd link to it here, as it may be of some interest to LEtB fans. It's a posthumous autobio of Richard Seaver, one of the people behind early Beat (and Selby, Jr.) publisher Grove Press. Grove was a very important anti-censorship champion and, from what I can tell, kinda like the Lenny Bruce of publishing. They specialized in the books and writers no one else would touch: Lady Chatterley, Malcolm X, Selby, Burroughs, Henry Miller, etc.

Sounded interesting, and it's relevant to the reading. Anyone read it?

Hugs to Dave and Jason -- my "sarcasm and/or ribbing" key is busted. Again.

Dave wrote: "I'm kinda imagining Harry as Lee J Cobb by this point."
Nice!
I'm not at all expecting a repeat visit to Part II, but regarding Harry's repressed homosexuality, I'm sure some event is gonna happen. Just don't know what.

Mad props for the supplemental info, Dave. When do you have time to read the actual book? ;)

Dave wrote: "Just found out about this book: The Tender Hour of Twilight. Thought I'd link to it here, as it may be of some interest to LEtB fans. It's a posthumous autobio of Richard Seaver, one of the people behind early Beat (and Selby, Jr.) publisher Grove Press. Grove was a very important anti-censorship champion and, from what I can tell, kinda like the Lenny Bruce of publishing. They specialized in the books and writers no one else would touch: Lady Chatterley, Malcolm X, Selby, Burroughs, Henry Miller, etc.

Sounded interesting, and it's relevant to the reading. Anyone read it? "

Dude, it only came out last week. We're not all Evelyn Wood grads like you.
Sounds like a fascinating story, though. Thanks a million for the heads-up.

Jim wrote: "I'm not at all expecting a repeat visit to Part II, but regarding Harry's repressed homosexuality, I'm sure some event is gonna happen. Just don't know what."

As it turns out, that part must happen somewhere in-between the cracks of Part V. Probably best not to distract the strike story with that recall, but it is saddening to think that the events of Part II must have had so little impact on Harry's life that they didn't even warrant a mention.

Jim wrote: "Dude, it only came out last week. We're not all Evelyn Wood grads like you.
Sounds like a fascinating story, though. Thanks a million for the heads-up."

Oh, ha, whoops! For some reason I got it in my head that it came out in 2009, but I think that was just when Seaver died.

DONE!

Dave wrote: "-Selby himself called his follow-up to Last Exit, The Room"

Man, it's a shame that Wiseau couldn't really capture Selby's energy and rawness on film:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQ4KzC...

That video had my all-time favorite YouTube comment (not hard): "The football won best supporting actor."