Chicks On Lit discussion

Hi ladies. I have a copy of The Dovekeepers, and was wondering if any of the Chicks would be interested in doing a Buddy Read with me on this one.

If you are interested, please chime in and let me know when you would be available to read it, and what your preferred pace of reading is. This is a 500 page book, divided into 4 parts.

I have a copy and my reading schedule is open and flexible, so I can work around others schedules for getting this book.

Thanks ladies. :o)

I really want to read this book, but unfortunately can not buy it right now. I can put it on hold at the library and let you know when I get it. I'd have it for two weeks.

If others come in and have more flexibility or availability I understand if you rather accommodate others, but I definitely want to read the book.

When did you want to start?

I can start when ever any one else is available. I am totally and completely flexible on this. I bought my copy of the book over a month ago, but I think it is one of those books that I am really going to want to discuss and talk about, so that is why I have been waiting. I'd rather wait to read it till someone is available to talk about it. :o)

Vicki, what is your waiting list like at the library?
Veronica, do you have a copy, or were you going to borrow it from the library also?

I'll join you. I don't have the book yet, but I have a Barnes and Noble membership and get free 2 day shipping, so I can start whenever. (As long as it's at least 2 days from now. lol.) Or I guess I can get it on my Kindle. Either way - that's not really your problem though. haha.

My library doesn't have a list posted for the patrons. We have a large system of libraries and if it comes in at mine and no one else is on the list I get priority, or they may transfer. It usually doesn't take long, but I can't give you something definite. I am fine with the rest of you coming up with a time, and if I can join in, I will. I wish I could be more precise and unfortunately I cannot afford it right now.

I will let you know if I note it in transit.

I understand, Vicki. My library system has 5 copies and all of them have a huge wait list on it.

I have it on my Kindle...let me know when you guys want to start

Would reading in February work for Sandra and Mary?
Since the book is divided into 4 parts, maybe start reading around Feb 1st, then discuss one part a week (depending on how it goes) until done?

And if Vicki can borrow a copy during the month, she can join in when she is able?

I can buy the book for my Nook in Friday. So whenever you are ready, I am willing to buddy read. February is a good time to start.

Great Veronica. I look forward to discussing this book with all of you. :o)

Sounds good to me. :)

I am excited. LOL

I'm actually glad that we're starting in February because I just started a 562 page book the other day and, since I can't read 2 books at once, I was afraid I'd either have to hurry through it or put it down and start it all over again later. lol.

February sounds good

I purchased the book. So far we will be ready for February.

I JUST started it yesterday if anybody wants to read ahead.

I just ordered it so should have it Monday or Tuesday. I'll probably start early too just in case I have to read slow or something. lol.

I just finished . Right now I am reading something light to hold me for the Dovekeepers

I am going to start reading that today, so I will join in on the chat.

I'm looking forward to reading this one, but don't have it yet. I love Alice Hoffman.

I started the book last night, but before we get into any discussion about the book, I am curious why everyone is interested in reading this?

This is the first book I have read by this author, Alice Hoffman. I was interested in reading the book though because of what it is about, the story of the seige at Masada and ancient Israel.

Has anyone else read other books by this author?
What are your personal reasons for wanting to read this book?

From the author's website:
http://alicehoffman.com/books/the-dov...

Dear Reader,


Once in a lifetime a book may come to a writer as an unexpected gift. The Dovekeepers is such a book for me. It was a gift from my great-great grandmothers, the women of ancient Israel who first spoke to me when I visited the mountain fortress of Masada. In telling their story of loss and of love, I’ve told my own story as well. After writing for thirty-five years, after more than thirty works of fiction, I was given the story I was meant to tell.

The Dovekeepers is a novel set during and after the fall of Jerusalem (70 C.E.). The book covers a period of four years as the Romans waged war against the Jewish stronghold of Masada, claimed by a group 900 rebels and their families. The story is taken from the historian Josephus, who has written the only account of siege, in which he reported that two women and five children survived the massacre on the night when the Jews committed mass suicide rather than submit to the Roman Legion. It was they who told the story to the Romans, and, therefore, to the world. I have researched The Dovekeepers for many years, relying not only Josephus’s account, but also on the findings of Yigal Yadin, the archeologist who led the Masada project.

I was initially inspired by my first visit to Masada, a spiritual experience so intense and moving I felt as though the lives that had been led there two thousand years earlier were utterly fresh and relevant. The tragic events of the past and the extraordinary sacrifices that were made in this fortress seemed to be present all around me. It was as if those who had lived there, and died there, had passed by only hours before. The temperature was well over a hundred degrees and the horizon was shaky with blue heat. In that great silence, standing inside the mystery that is the past, surrounded by the sorrow of the many deaths that occurred there, I also felt surrounded by life and by the stories of the women who had been there. In that moment, The Dovekeepers came to life as well.

ALL MY BEST,
Alice Hoffman

I don't have any deep profound reason for wanting to read it, I just enjoy Hoffman's books.

I like reads with strong women characters. Characters who have been persecuted for their beliefs but remain true amaze me. The history behind the setting appeals to me too. Not to far into it but already characters are already tugging at my heart.

I'm only a few pages in ... the writing is beautiful. But my heart aches for that little girl.

I don't know about you all, but I couldn't hardly put it down this weekend. Excellent book!

So, has everyone had a chance to read book 1?

I just did some research on this book, and it looks like the novel is split into four principal parts, with each of the main characters—Yael, Revka, Aziza, and Shirah—narrating one section.

So first we get to discuss Yael.

What are your thoughts on Yael? Are there any quotes that jumped out at you? What do you think of Yael's relationship with Ben Simon?

For me, one passage that struck with me was when Yael says "It was the first time I broke our laws. After that, the rest came easily to me." (in the discussion after she started cutting her leg to mark the days they spent in the desert.

I find myself feeling compassion for Yael, even though she has the affair with Ben Simon. I think that Ben Simon was the first peson to really show her anything resembling love, and think it is very sad how her father has treated her her entire life.

Wasn't Sia the first to show her love? I got irritated that she would hurt Sia that way. But at the same time I understood her ache to be with ben Simon. That's probably what makes a character human - you can understand why she would do the wrong thing even against her better judgement.

When Yael went to the cave to beg Sia's forgiveness, I started liking her a lot more. Now that I'm into Revka's section, I'm sympathizing with and liking Yael more and more.

Mary wrote: "Wasn't Sia the first to show her love? I got irritated that she would hurt Sia that way. "

I pictured Yael and Sia more as two woman just thrown together by circumstance. On page 29 it says "I was thrown together with Sia and her children when I would have preferred to be alone. Still, she was kind to me and I became accustomed to her."

For me it seemed that she thought Ben Simon was the first to see her, to understand her, when he actually talked to her by the fire. I was thinking that up to that point nobody had really recognized her for a person, an individual.

He was the first man. She had 2 women who treated her like people - the girl who took care of her after her mother died and then Sia.

But I think it's an important distinction because the story is really about the friendships between women. And what Yael comes to value more.

At least that's what I took from it.

I love the part when Yael goes out into the wilderness to get Sia's forgiveness. I wish it was always that dramatic when we're forgiven.

I'm sorry, I couldn't just read one section a week because I couldn't put it down so I finished it yesterday and I'm bouncing in my seat to talk about it. lol.

I'm glad you loved it Mary!

I am still reading this weeks section (had to get caught up on the two other club reads), but I will get caught up with part two soon. I am seeing this now as more of a story about women, and about the relationships between the women. I think I am going to end up really liking the book too.

Spoilers for Book1:

I am also done this book, because I could not put it down. It was a five star read for me.

As for Yael, she was my favorite dovekeeper. I loved how the author used Yael’s dreams of the lion to develop the story of her life. Yael says, “I yearned for that beast in the way that a person yearns for her own destiny. What happens is already written, and the lion had been written besides my name.” I thought Yael felt a strong connection with Ben Simon, because she thought he, as the lion slayer, was her destiny.

My thoughts at this point in the story: I think Yael is actually the lion, but she does not see this because she is weakened by her past. If she could see more clearly, Ben Simon defeating the lion was really a warning for her to stay away from him.

I personally enjoyed Yael's character and story most out of the other women.

I felt sympathy only for Sia and how the situation affected her. However, I read Ben Simon as a manipulative male, and Yael as a gullible woman who's weak spot was purged. The male domination in that area of the world is still strongly present today and I felt it just as strongly present throughout the entire book, especially in these desert scenes.

Megan wrote: "Spoilers for Book1:

I am also done this book, because I could not put it down. It was a five star read for me.

As for Yael, she was my favorite dovekeeper. I loved how the author used Ya..."

That's an interesting perspective that I hadn't considered. When Yael came to Shira, she called Yael a "Lioness." So that makes sense.

Michele wrote: "I personally enjoyed Yael's character and story most out of the other women.

I felt sympathy only for Sia and how the situation affected her. However, I read Ben Simon as a manipulative male, and ..."

They were Jewish, not Muslim. I hope you understand the difference and I'm just mis-reading what you wrote.

But I didn't see Yael as gullible at all. She knew what she was getting into and she wanted it. She invited it. She had no illusions that Ben Simon would leave his wife for her.

Did anyone notice the recurring theme of silence? I am on a theme kick. ;-)

It seemed the characters were connected by a silence that stemmed from an unpleasant past; however, the book also spoke of a silence that was pleasant and rewarding.

The book taught me to value the silence: the silence in other people, the silence when speaking of other people, and the silence when enjoying a moment.

They were Jewish, not Muslim. I hope you understand the difference and I'm just mis-reading what you wrote.

Male domination is extremely relevant to ancient Jewish culture and I felt its presence was very strong throughout the book; from women isolating themselves during their time of bleeding to their cleanliness, not making eye contact with men .. In the beginning of the book, Sia and Yael walked several paces behind the men on their journey out of the city because following behind a man was proper. There are many more instances but these are a few of the examples in the first part of the book.

Michele wrote: " They were Jewish, not Muslim. I hope you understand the difference and I'm just mis-reading what you wrote.

Male domination is extremely relevant to ancient Jewish culture and I felt its presenc..."

I don't disagree with that. My point was only that we shouldn't compare the ancient Jews to modern Muslims because it's not really the same thing.

Mary wrote: "Michele wrote: " They were Jewish, not Muslim. I hope you understand the difference and I'm just mis-reading what you wrote.

Not once did I use the word Muslim . Women in Judaism today are still fighting for more religious rights and less societal rules and roles placed upon them. Of course it's nowhere on the scale of what it was historically speaking, but it is still very present today.

Megan wrote: "Did anyone notice the recurring theme of silence? I am on a theme kick. ;-)

It seemed the characters were connected by a silence that stemmed from an unpleasant past;."

Part 2 (which I finished last night) certainly had a silence theme to it. I loved how this part even ended with:
I heard the voice of God all around me, but I was unafraid. I should have trembled before the Almightly and hid myself from sight. I should have taken a knife to my own flesh and cut away the mark of my past deeds. But now I understood that, although words were God's first creation, silence was closer to His divine spirit, and that prayers given in silence were infinitely greater than the thousands of words men offer up to heaven.
I listened to the wind that had risen in the desert to follow us here. I heard what it had to say.

I love this author's writing. I find the above paragraph just beautiful to read.

And in writing out this last part, it seems that there is also a theme about the women hurting themselves, cutting themselves, in response to their pain. Yael cut herself regularly, and here Revka talks about how she should have taken a knife to her own flesh.

Sheila wrote: "Megan wrote: "Did anyone notice the recurring theme of silence? I am on a theme kick. ;-)

It seemed the characters were connected by a silence that stemmed from an unpleasant past;."

Part 2 (w..."

That is a very beautiful passage. I very much agree that prayers given in silence are a stronger force. Maybe because when you say prayers or anything in silence you are truly reflecting on what is being said.

I also did not notice the theme with women hurting themsleves until you said it. I am now trying to determine if this is the case with Aziza and Shirah. I have some thougths, but I will wait until everyone is done their sections.

That is a beautiful passage. And parallels the New Testament sentiment of offering your prayers and offerings in private instead of showing off. (Not that all public prayers are showing off, but the point was don't show off. lol.)

I don't know that the thread of women hurting themselves was a particularly strong theme (although is an interesting point). Yael is really the only one who does it on purpose. Yoav does it but he's a man. Although it is a very good illustration of the internal pain faced by these people - men and women alike.

Part 3, told by Aziza:

What do you think of Aziza's desire to be a man, a warrior, and to fight in the battles in place of her brother?

What do you make of Channa’s attempt, essentially, to kidnap Yael’s baby Arieh?

What do you think of Nahara’s decision to join the Essenes? Is she naïve or a true believer?

I have to be honest, when Revka started taking Arieh to Channa, I put the book down and didn't pick it up for a whole day because I was afraid of what was coming...

I don't know what to make of Aziza. I can understand the wanting to be a warrior and protect your family for sure. The dressing up as a man I don't get. Except that maybe in the sense of you do what you have to do to save your family. If I had to disguise myself to protect my family I'd do it.

Nahara joining the Essenes ... I don't know. The way Hoffman did it, it just seemed natural and I wasn't surprised. I think if she *hadn't* joined them, it would have seemed forced and not have flowed well. Plus, it was a convenient way for Hoffman to get her out of the way (isn't it called "convenient death syndrome"?) to make way for Yael in her mother's life. The son went to live with the warriors, Aziza was acting and dressing like a man, only Nahara was left; with Nahara gone, Yael could come in.

The end of the book:

Alice Hoffman explains that the historical foundation of her story comes from Josephus, the first-century historian who has written the only account of the massacre at Masada. How does knowing that the novel is based on history and archeological findings affect your thoughts of the book?

Jump in with any other comments you also might have about the book. :o)

What did you like most? Were there any parts you disliked?

For me, the whole "everybody is related to everyone else" line seemed a little much. I had a hard time believing that Shirah had been Yael's babysitter in Jerusalem, etc. Do you think this was just the authors way of tying these women all together? That they could not have had as close of relationships if they had not all been so intertwined and related?

Sheila wrote: "Part 3, told by Aziza:

What do you think of Aziza's desire to be a man, a warrior, and to fight in the battles in place of her brother?

What do you make of Channa’s attempt, essentially, to kidna..."

What do you think of Aziza's desire to be a man, a warrior, and to fight in the battles in place of her brother?
I really enjoyed Aziza’s story. It appeared to me that Aziza’s desire to be a man stemmed from the way she was raised as a child. Did anyone feel sorry for Aziza’s stepfather? HUM - Maybe Aziza’s desire to be a warrior stemmed from wanting to be closer to her stepfather and real father.

What do you make of Channa’s attempt, essentially, to kidnap Yael’s baby Arieh?
I also had a feeling that bringing Arieh to visit Channa was a horrible idea, but in the end I felt very sad for Channa and understood her want for Arieh. Did anyone else feel sorry for Channa? I also liked the way Channa’s story played into the mix.

What do you think of Nahara’s decision to join the Essenes? Is she naïve or a true believer?
Nahara’s decision to join the Essenes didn’t really make much sense to me. From her introduction the author made her appear to be a strong-minded individual. For that reason I am not really buying that she left with the Essenes because she was naïve or a true believer. It seemed like her departure was more personal . Maybe she left to rebel against her mother for leaving her father? Either way I enjoyed the Essenes’ story and how faith was such a powerful player in their world.

It didn't necessarily bother me that Shirah turned out to be Yael's former caretaker. And I didn't find it all that surprising. But, at the same time, did it really add to the story? I feel like if the news had broken earlier on, then it could have been a powerful addition to the story. But as it was, I felt like the author was like, "Oh yeah. And let's say Shirah was Yael's former caretaker." It was one of the very few parts of the book that I found a little awkward.

Has anyone read any other books by Alice Hoffman? If so, what have you read and did you like it? How does this boook compare to her other books?