The Readers Review: Literature from 1714 to 1910 discussion

January 8 is the day when we start reading and discussing a new book by Dickens as a part of the Dickens Project. Join us in the discussion of the third Dickens novel The Life and Adventures of Nicholas Nickleby. The novel was originally published as a serial from 1838 to 1839. This week we are discussing chapters 1-5.

To improve our discussion experience I would like to propose some questions and observations. If you find them interesting, please respond and quote your favorite parts of the book. Don’t feel obligated to answer these questions and feel free to express your opinion in any way you like.

This section mentions and introduces a number of characters, and some of them are for the sake of the family background while others will stay there throughout the whole novel. Some characters are already quite fleshed out, and some are mere sketches. Whom do you find the most believable?

Do you think that Dickens drastically changes his mood from chapter to chapter? What is your favorite chapter so far?

This is the second novel when Dickens starts with the introductory chapter covering the events of the past. Do you find this approach insightful, formulaic, or convenient?

Dickens also tries to tackle one more serious issue in his novel, namely boarding schools and the quality of education. This reading section is just a small foray and “a sneak preview” into this world. How can you define his attitude and how successful is he in this preliminary depiction?

And one more point. Dickens is widely known for his amazing language skills. Please share here your favorite quotations or linguistic gems of his literary genius.

P.S. Let me know if you want me to post some questions and observations in my other NN threads just to trigger the initial discussion.

Zulfiya wrote: "P.S. Let me know if you want me to post some questions and observations in my other NN threads just to trigger the initial discussion. "
I think that is a great idea. When it is completely open-ended, sometimes it's hard to get the discussion going.

Whom do you find the most believable?
Ralph Nickleby seems very real to me. He reminds me of far too many high-ranking people in government and business- completely corrupt, greedy, selfish, and without compassion. He was given advantages in his youth, but he utterly opposes any suggestion that he should help out others in the same way.

Education: It is already apparent that Dickens did not hold boarding schools in high regard. They were notoriously awful in this time period.

Favorite quotes/linguistic gems: I love the character descriptions.

"He was a tall man of middle-age with two goggle eyes whereof one was a fixture, a rubicund nose, a cadaverous face, and a suit of clothes (if the term be allowable when the clothes suited him not at all) much the worse for wear, very much too small, and placed upon such a short allowance of buttons that it was quite marvellous how he contrived to keep them on."

"Mr. Squeers appearance was not prepossessing. He had but one eye, and the popular prejudice runs in favour of two. The eye he had was unquestionably useful, but decidedly not ornamental, being of a greenish-grey, and in shape resembling the fanlight of a street door. The blank side of his face was much wrinkled and puckered up, which gave him a very sinister appearance, especially when he smiled, at which times his expression bordered on the villainous. [etc.]"

Other comments: I love the names of the characters. Reading names like Newman Noggs, Matthew Pupker, Wackford Squeers, Mr. Snawley, etc. always makes me smile.

Anne wrote: "Zulfiya wrote: "P.S. Let me know if you want me to post some questions and observations in my other NN threads just to trigger the initial discussion. "
I think that is a great idea. When it is co..."

An excellent observation about speaking names. The only desire I had when I read pages about Wackford Squeers was to 'squeeze' him (a metaphor:-))- he is absolutely loathsome.

Zulfiya wrote: "An excellent observation about speaking names. The only desire I had when I read pages about Wackford Squeers was to 'squeeze' him (a metaphor:-))- he is absolutely loathsome. "

Loathsome is definitely the right word to describe him.

I'm struck again by how topical this is - the machinations of Ralph and his cohorts in pushing the "muffin company" and making it seem that they were acting out of concern for the public good and the good of the independent muffin sellers - all in order to put those sellers out of business and drive up the stock price. And the Nickleby family is ruined when "a bubble burst, four stockbrokers took villa residences in Florence, four hundred nobodies were ruined". Same as now when bankers and traders get bonuses while the small fry lose out.
Descriptive passage: I liked the city courtyard "in which there withers on, from year to year, a crippled tree, that makes a show of putting forth a few leaves late in autumn when other trees shed theirs, and drooping in the effort, lingers on, all crackled and smoke-dried, till the following season, when it repeats the same process, and perhaps if the weather be particularly genial, even tempts some rheumatic sparrow to chirrup in its branches."
Quite a contrast to the idyllic descriptions of true countryside that we saw in Oliver Twist.
So far Nicholas has very little personality, being an honest and innocent young man. But it can't be that blood makes him so, as his brother is just the opposite.
Although Squeers is loathsome as you say, we see that he is selling a product wanted by a certain clientele (Snawley who wants his stepsons far away with no holidays or annoying letters home). In my edition (Bantam Classic) there is a preface by Dickens stating that several schoolmasters claimed they were the inspiration for Squeers, which "has afforded the Author great amusement and satisfaction."

Robin wrote: "I'm struck again by how topical this is - the machinations of Ralph and his cohorts in pushing the "muffin company" and making it seem that they were acting out of concern for the public good and t..."
I am on your side - chapter 2 is topical, and this topic is still very important. It does resemble the situation in modern American where small companies and business are destroyed by industrial and selling monsters. I also think that the same chapter is actually one of the best example of Dickens in his satirical mood: the satire is poignant and biting.
Nicholas is not a character yet, but he has a potential while his mom is somewhat annoying in these first chapters.

I've really been enjoying the book. As always with me, I love the character names. They always make me smile and seem to be more descriptive of the character than a true name.

Favorite quote: "...one Mr. Godfrey Nickelby, a worthy gentleman, who taking into his head rather late in life the he must get married, and not being young enough or rich enough to aspire to the hand of a lady of fortune, had wedded an old flame out of mere attachment, who in her turn had taken him for the same reason: thus two people who cannot afford to play cards for money, sometimes sit down to a quiet game of love."

I noticed that there was a sense of aloneness even while in a big city. Dickens says that even though he looked for a friend and didn't find it in the city; he also didn't find it when he looked for it at home. Such a solitary existence he is living even while there are people around him.

I loved the irony in Chapter 1 were the will is changed from benefiting the Humane Society because the society functioned as it should, but it had rescued one of his poor relations.

The two brothers, Nicholas and Ralph, are complete opposites when it comes to their focus in life. A harken back to Cain and Abel perhaps? One brother is focused on monetary riches; the other on a peaceful existence in the country.

Chapter two shows us very clearly the ease of losing one's financial security with the introduction of Noggs. Also the development of the Muffin company, basically a shell corporation guaranteed to put out of business everybody but the ones participating in that corporation, reminded me of our financial fiascos of today. Not only the banking industry, as previously mentioned, but also pharmaceuticals, insurance; the list goes one. One of the reasons why pharmaceuticals came to mind was because I was recently in a pharmacy when a gentlemen was renewing his prescription. The pharmacist indicated his insurance would not cover it, but the customer shouldn't worry since the cash cost of the drug was less than what the customer would pay for a co-pay. I couldn't believe my ears.

By looking at the financial fiascos of today, and the Muffin Company, it seemed to me that history just keeps repeating itself. The novel is set in an unstable economy. It happens again in the 1920's, and then again now. It makes me wonder as the "older generation" passes on and there are no longer any living witnesses to the previous travails, are we cursed to keep making the same mistakes? Is there no way to pass the information on in such a way so that we may learn the lesson once?

I really enjoyed the ludicrousness of the meeting whereby they sell the Muffin Corporation by indicating the small muffin people are the dregs of the earth. I really got a kick out the reference to Punch. And was surprised to learn the inability of the poor to obtain muffins was such a threat to society and the cause of so many ills. This made me think of Congress and the Senate with all the lobbyists.

When the family meets in Chapter 3, it brought the dinner in a Christmas Carol to my mind. It also made me think that the lack of worldly knowledge has a cost whether it be financial or emotional.

Deborah, you've made my day - the bleak rainy day in Arkansas does look so much better after a cup of strong hot steaming tea and your post.
Why do you all think about Noggs? (no spoilers, please) He is such a mysterious person.

I enjoy the way this club discusses a book bit by bit. I find that it improves my reading and understanding of the different aspects of the books, not just the main story. Thank you everyone.

It would seem that from these initial few chapters that once again Dickens is fleshing out the baddies rather than the good characters. I feel so far that we know more about Ralph Nickelby and Mr Squeers than any of the other characters. The unfortunate aspect of this is that the good characters are often boring and uninteresting. This should not be a learning that we take into our everyday lives. Although I think that we all love a rogue.

As for Noggs, I am not sure that we know enough about him yet, but what we have seen sofar is intruiging and wants me to know more. What did he give Nicholas on the coach and why?

Another puzzle - what does Ralph know about the death of the child at the school - is there something dishonest here - such as extracting fees although the child was already dead? Does Ralph have a hold over Mr Squeers, which is why Ralph was so confident that he would get the placement for Nicholas? Is it safe to assume that the child died of poor treatment?

Zulfiya wrote: "Deborah, you've made my day - the bleak rainy day in Arkansas does look so much better after a cup of strong hot steaming tea and your post.
Why do you all think about Noggs? (no spoilers, please)..."

Glad I could help ;-). It was a resolution for the New Year. I've always wanted to study literature and never have. Then it came to me that I could do it myself with help from you guys.

Noggs is creepy to me. I think he hasn't been completely described to us but he gives me the creeps at the moment.

"United Metropolitan Improved Hot Muffin and Crumpet Baking and Punctual Delivery Company." What a name! I have to admit that I found the entire muffin section pretty humorous. The names of companies, organizations & societies in the Dickens' novels I've read so far are always very long, which I find funny.

Nicholas' sister seems to have pretty good intuition about Mr. Squeers, and as Nicholas drives away with him and the boys, we get a sense of foreboding. I understand that the Nickelby's are in a desperate situation, but it still seems odd that no investigation goes into Nicholas taking the post. Unfortunately, they are relying on their Uncle Ralph, who is less than generous, and as Granauille has pointed out, most likely does not have the purest motives in sending Nicholas there.

I agree Noggs does seem to be a bit creepy. However, I think he might end up being of some help to Nicholas. Due to the fact that Ralph Nickleby pays Noggs

"less than the usual wages of a boy of thirteen"

and coupled with the fact that in chapter three we learn that Ralph begins to hate Nicholas:

"It galled Ralph to the heart's core, and he hated Nicholas from that hour"

perhaps Noggs might be inclined to help Nicholas just to spite Ralph. So far it appears that Ralph is not exactly fair with Noggs. I could be completely wrong about this but I guess we shall find out.

I am anxious to read the next section to find out what is contained in the letter that Noggs gave to Nicholas. Will the letter be of benefit to Nicholas?


Zulfiya wrote: "P.S. Let me know if you want me to post some questions and observations in my other NN threads just to trigger the initial discussion.."

YES, please do!

Granuaille wrote: "I enjoy the way this club discusses a book bit by bit. I find that it improves my reading and understanding of the different aspects of the books, not just the main story. Thank you everyone.

It..."

There is definitely something fishy between Ralph and Mr Squeers. I re-read the chapter again, and they way they struck a bargain about Nicholas could provoke some thoughts for consideration.
You are a very observant reader, Granuaille.

Seeuuder wrote: "I agree Noggs does seem to be a bit creepy. However, I think he might end up being of some help to Nicholas. Due to the fact that Ralph Nickleby pays Noggs

"less than the usual wages of a boy of ..."

I believe Noggs is the epitome of English eccentricity: a goodhearted goofball.

I have just been able to read the first 5 chapters today and I must say that I love the book already. The characters are so different and extraordinary.
I also felt this association about the muffin company and today's financial world. How little the world changes!
One passage I liked especially was the first encounter of Uncle Ralph and Nicholas and the contrast of the 2 characters, which almost seems like a possible omen for the relationship of the two during the whole book ("The face of the old man was stern, hard-featured and forbidding, that of the young one, open, handsome, and indigenous ....., there was an emanation from the warm young heart in his look and bearing which kept the old man down....It galled Ralph to the heart's core, and he hated Nicholas from that hour.") . It will be interesting to see how this relationship develops.
For Mr. Noggs, he seems mysterious and it will be interesting to get to know more about his relationship to and the reason for his staying with Ralph Nickleby. If he earns so little, there must be another reason for his staying with Ralph.
I also agree with Granuaille about the relationship between Ralph and Mr. Squeers. There must be more behind this, too.

I hope I will be able to finish the next chapters earlier than the last day of their discussion. ;-)

I'm playing a bit of catch up too. So far it is a quick read. I too like the idea of asking questions.

So far Mr. Noggs and Ralph N. are the most fleshed out characters. I agree w/ Hedi, Dickens is coy in his description of Mr. Noggs. Early in Ch 2: "At length, his (Ralph's) eyes wandered to a little dirty window on the left, through which the face of the clerk was dimly visible; that worthy chancing to look up.." By describing Noggs as "that worthy" do you think Dickens is casting the character in a positive light?

Chapter 2 was great fun. I laughted at the description of the crowd: "These vocal exertions, emanating fromt the people who had been there longest, naturally proceeded from those who were nearest to the platform and furthest from the policemen in attendance,who having no great mind to fight their way through the crowd...began to drag forth..all the queit people near the door."

No work tomorrow, as it is MLKing Day in the states. Plan to stay up late and read the next section.

Someone said this Dkicke s would go well for me. It sure has I am hooked. I do love how Dicken's is always, I guess what I woud say changing things up with his mood.

The literary gem that I love is Dicken's satire. For example when Ralph's brother dies his comment after reading the letter did not catch me by surprise but I loved how it was written.

I would like to know about Mr. Bonney. I also noticed that Sarah is not given a name until after all the male characters have spoken and are well established.

Enjoying the book a lot so far, and I appreciate that the schedule offers time to study the chapters in depth. This is my first participation in the Dickens project, but he's been a favorite since my youth. In the past I have read David Copperfield, Tale of Two Cities, Great Expectations, Bleak House, and Our Mutual Friend. Here are a few reactions to the initial chapters, for whatever they're worth.

Ralph Nickleby seems to be the embodiment of Dickens' critique of the capitalist society that Britain is becoming. His social identity is utterly abstract; he has no "station": "Mr Ralph Nickleby was not, strictly speaking, what you would call a merchant, neither was he a banker, nor an attorney, nor a special pleader, nor a notary. He was certainly not a tradesman, and still less could he lay any claim to the title of a professional gentleman; for it would have been impossible to mention any recognised profession to which he belonged."

The object of greatest interest to him, apparently, is his watch - a symbol of abstract time. When not looking at his watch, his focus is entirely inward - he gazes at an ugly little tree in the courtyard, but doesn't really see it.

Another aspect of Ralph's abstract, atomistic identity is his practice of avoiding social interactions or relationships, even with his own family, if there is no profit to be gained. "[H]e speedily became so buried and absorbed, that he quite forgot his brother for many years; and if, at times, a recollection of his old playfellow broke upon him . . . it brought along with it a companion thought, that if they were intimate he would want to borrow money of him." In this aversion to family ties, Ralph is like his namesake, the elder Ralph, whose bequest to Godfrey at the beginning of the novel is triggered by his pique at the survival of an identified "poor relation" to whom the elder Ralph had or felt some obligation to pay "a weekly allowance". At another point, the younger Ralph comments, "'I have no money to throw away on miniatures, ma'am, and nobody to give one to (thank God) if I had.'"

I am getting a kick out of Noggs - one of those eccentric but lovable Dickens characters - who does seem to be connected to the story in some as yet undisclosed way. Although he habitually rubs his hands together like Uriah Heep, I don't find him nearly as creepy as Heep. His habit of making faces is shared with a number of other Dickens eccentrics, I believe, although I can't remember exactly who they are. Jerry Cruncher, maybe, from Tale of Two Cities?

I am just catching up with the group read. Eventhough this book was written 150+ years ago, I feel that Chapter 2 could have been written in our present time. I am reminded by the idiom "No matter how much we think things change, they remain the same." The dealings of the Muffin company remind me of the current economic crisis we are dealing with. It reminds me of the "big box" retailers putting local mom and pop shops out of business.

Do you think that Dickens drastically changes his mood from chapter to chapter? What is your favorite chapter so far?
So far, my favorite chapter has been Chapter 2. I found myself at times laughing. Dickens is able to make a strong point as to the ways of business and describe it so humerously.

I just starting reading this because I wanted to finish Mill on the Floss first. I'm up to Chapter 8 now so I can comment on the first section.

Like many of you, I found Chapter 2 to not only be humorous, but very much relevant to today. To me it is foreshadowing what is to come in some of his other novels, such as Hard Times.

But he also indicts government as well - they allow the Muffin company to be created, and also don't care about the average person.

Noggs is kind of creepy, and with Dickens, it is hard to tell if he is going to end up being a "good" guy or a "bad" guy. He owes Ralph Nickleby, but at the same time, I don't think he likes him very much. Given that he hands Nicholas a letter, makes me think that he's a good guy. And as someone write, he seems to be a bit of a goofball...not sinister like Uriah Heep (who is one scary dude.)

Even though I feel sorry for Nicholas and his family, at the same time, they are a bit too sheltered. While I don't like to see people get trampled by others - like Ralph - maybe it might do them some good to see the world without the rose colored glasses? Is that too mean?

I am very happy that you decided to join in. I hope you will enjoy our discussion.

Bob wrote: Ralph Nickleby seems to be the embodiment of Dickens' critique of the capitalist society that Britain is becoming.

Christy B wrote: I am just catching up with the group read. Eventhough this book was written 150+ years ago, I feel that Chapter 2 could have been written in our present time. I am reminded by the idiom "No matter how much we think things change, they remain the same."

Good points! I rather think that Dickens, the reformer, would, together with many other prominent Victorian reformers, be part of the 'Occupy' movement today:) and their banners would also read 'Capitalism in Crisis'.

My lord yes, the more things change, the more they stay the same. Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose.

United Metropolitan Improved Hot Muffin AND CRUMPET Baking and Punctual Delivery Company, ‘Why, the very name will get the shares up to a premium in ten days’
‘And when they are at a premium,’ said Mr Ralph Nickleby, smiling.
‘When they are, you know what to do with them as well as any man alive, and how to back quietly out at the right time,’ said Mr Bonney, slapping the capitalist familiarly on the shoulder.

It's twelve years on from the original NN discussion, and Mr Dickens (not to mention Anthony Trollope) would have plenty of material to draw from today.

Emoluments, Russian ties, money laundering, campaign finance violations, flouting of Hatch Act and Logan Act... and still plenty of stock price manipulation, voter bribery via PACs, purchasing of the public square Twitter, touting of gold coins, political candidates selling wares (Bibles! gold watches! stamped shoes! podcasts!) and conspiracy theories to go around.

Okay back to the book.

Favorite quotes/linguistic gems:

I was pronouncing Dotheboys Hall as "dawth-beez" until Squeers said a boy (so unfortunately) died, and realized it is probably better pronounced as "do - the - boys."

Just funny:
-And Ralph always wound up these mental soliloquies by arriving at the conclusion, that there was nothing like money.
-Mr Squeers’s appearance was not prepossessing. He had but one eye, and the popular prejudice runs in favour of two.

How can people be this awful. What will happen to Mrs Nickleby and Kate once Nicholas is gone?

Yes, the first time I read the book, I didn't get the pun, especially since in the US we don't usually use "do" in the sense of "take advantage of". But I'm sure that was the intent.

Money comes up a LOT in Dickens, also in Trollope, as does corruption.