A Song of Ice and Fire discussion

Which series is the better fantasy epic?

The Wheel of Time series by Robert Jordan or A Song of Fire & Ice series by George R.R. Martin?

The Eye of the World

A Game of Thrones

Either way it's quite a commitment to read either. If you didn't like the first few books of WoT then don't read on as those, in my opinion are some of Jordan's best.

WoT. Not even a contest. I gave up on ASoIaF after the third book.

Wheel of Time, definitely. But ASoIaF it's also a great reading, just not so epic as WoT.

WoT easily. After book 3 ASoIaF goes to crap.

I'm divided in my opinion. For me the quality of the writing is better in Martin's series but WOT doesn't kill off characters that readers have strongly identified with. If you look at the comments above, they are switching off at exactly that point in the series narrative. It really feels as if the author, brilliant as his writing is, is insulting the reader's sensitivies.

They are just too different. I like them equally for many different, and often conflicting reasons, and one of the series ins't even completed yet, so it feels even weirder trying to compare an unfinished work with a finished one.

Daniel wrote: "WoT easily. After book 3 ASoIaF goes to crap."

I definitely agree with you, after first 3 books the author has simply lost the plot, and in last 2 books the story hasn't moved an inch from where it was previously, the last two books are simply travelogues of people going from one place to another.Also the laziness the author is showing writing the series is culpable.

Since WoT is absolute drivel, I'm going to go with ASoIaF.

Frank wrote: "I'm divided in my opinion. For me the quality of the writing is better in Martin's series but WOT doesn't kill off characters that readers have strongly identified with. If you look at the commen..."

He' stated publicly what he wants to do when he does that. He wants characters to be mourned. I think it is difficult for some people to digest. Book 3 made me toss it across the room and give up for 6 months reading them, I was mortified. Then I realized...no other writer in history has made me feel that strongly about any character ever...kudos to great writing.

Are people SERIOUSLY claiming that WoT is better because ASoIaF gets worse?

WoT? The interminable (I guess not anymore) series with terrible entries in which nothing happens? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Martin is better on every front.

Have only read ASoIaF so far, but after reading this I have got the first book of WoT.

Hopefully will enjoy it but it has to go a long way to beat GRRM.

David wrote: Hopefully will enjoy it but it has to go a long way to beat GRRM."

Ohh it went! Lol

ASoIaF are a very enjoyable, well written series but WoT is EPIC

Baelor wrote: "Are people SERIOUSLY claiming that WoT is better because ASoIaF gets worse?

WoT? The interminable (I guess not anymore) series with terrible entries in which nothing happens? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Mar..."

Couldn't have said it better myself.

I can only say that I had to keep reading after the first book of ASoIaF (and the second, and the third...) but have not felt compelled to read after book one of WoT. Not that I didn't like it, it just didn't hold me as well. In all fairness, I am not the biggest fan of high fantasy either.

Good points made by every one above, and all differences come from what we want to read personally, but I too had to struggle through the first Wheel of Time novel and had no compulsion to read on. I read A Song of Fire and Ice, books 1 -5, in about 8 months of casual reading. Could be that I didn't have to wait years between books, like I am now, could be that it is crappy and boring. Up to the reader to find out.

http://www.bookdepository.com/Eye-Wor... $13 bucks

Box set of 1-3 is $25 (AUD).

Enjoy.

Martin gets my vote. Wheel of Time just kept dragging on and on and the books are stuffed to bursting with unnecessary padding.

Martin is dragging his story as much as Jordan ever did, and there is less action. At least with WoT I'm not skipping every other POV because I hate the characters. A Song of Ice and Fire can't keep me interested- the only reason I finished the fifth book was for Tyrion.

Ridiculous comparison. If u ever read GoT there is a serious possibility that u wont be able to try WoT. The wrtting skills of Jordan are several degrees worse than Martins. The plot is much more interesting, believing, and serious and the characters are much more dimensional and "real". On the other hand if u like bold and the beautiful "drama" with high fantasy anime super heroes action and endless nonsense dialogues u might like WoT...

Heather wrote: "Martin is dragging his story as much as Jordan ever did, and there is less action. At least with WoT I'm not skipping every other POV because I hate the characters. A Song of Ice and Fire can't kee..."

Agreed.

Martin is dragging his story as much as Jordan ever did, and there is less action. At least with WoT I'm not skipping every other POV because I hate the characters. A Song of Ice and Fire can't keep me intereseted- the only reason I finished the fifth book was for Tyrion

Ya I definitely agree with you, because after the first 3 books,Martin has just introduced more and more characters in the series, also the story has been buried so deep I find it difficult he would be able to complete it in his coming 2 books

1.Winds Of Winter
2.Dream Of Spring

Also the pace with which he is going I don't think the series will be complete before 2020.

Regarding the last two books they were pure drag, they were just travelogues of people traveling from one place to another with too much attention to detail.I have myself read the series twice but the last books were the hardest for me to complete.I have now moved from this world to Malazan world and I am definitely happy with it.

The single most concerning thing about GRRM's series is that it is exhibiting major signs of Jordan-itis - the tedious focus on the minutiae of daily life, pages and pages of nothing happening, gajillions of characters who do little or nothing to progress things.

Leaving aside his crass and offensive portrayal of male/female relations, Jordan destroyed a middling, formulaic fantasy series with his endless repetition and waffle and Aes Sedai smoothing their dresses. If Martin does the same to his series which, in the first three books at least, was several leagues above the Wheel of Time in just about every measure, it would be a tragedy.

They would both have benefited from a much stronger editor after the first few books. Someone with the power to send them back an annotated manuscript with a big line drawn through most of the pages, marked 'waffle - cut', 'condense all seven of these chapters into one', 'filler - cut' and similar.

I have to say SoFaI is much more interesting to me than WoT. I read the first wot and enjoyed it then I read the second book and it is was ehhhh. Then I tried to read the third book, it still has my bookmark in it about an eighth of the way in and I read them probably 15 years ago. I just didn't get why there was more than one book. He won. He beat the bad guy and I was content with that, then it just seemed to keep going and going and it completely lost my interest becuse in the back of my head I kept saying "but he won why is this all happening".

Ray wrote: "I have to say SoFaI is much more interesting to me than WoT. I read the first wot and enjoyed it then I read the second book and it is was ehhhh. Then I tried to read the third book, it still has m..."

He didn't won. Actually, - SPOILER - he wasn't even fighting the Dark One...

ASoIaF by far, the Wheel of Time is long winded and wants to be Lord of the Rings.

Full disclosure: I 'only' read books 1-6, 11, 13-14 of WoT because by the time I got well into 6 I realized there was nothing preventing me from skipping the chapters I didn't care about (Circus much, Nynaeve?) and I just decided to skip to 11 because it was supposed to be 'better'. It wasn't.
12 my library didn't have, but 13-14 were pretty good, way better than the 'best' of Jordan's solo books thanks to Sanderson being able to write a 900 page book and keep things interesting.

I've read all five volumes of ASOIAF and never looked back. Even the much maligned books 4 and 5 are actually pretty good when re-read and separated from the long wait that preceded them.

To the point: From what I read of WoT, I can see it's just an inferior, money-grabbing series. The only time I was legitimately excited during the whole story was at the end of the first book. That's it. The rest was mostly just plodding towards the promised exciting 'Tarmon Gai'don' which was pretty exciting... 14 books later and by a different author.

ASOIAF has way better characters, and even though it has quite a large cast like WoT, most of the incidental and minor characters don't get their own subplot because they're irrelevant and only there to flesh out the world. Even the latest book, A Dance with Dragons,has pretty much righted the course of the series with the untying of what GRRM calls "the Meereense knot" and other interesting cliffhangers. And a series that actually dares to kill off major characters before the final book is way more interesting in my opinion.

u just can't compare them .. perhaps if u put WOT with the malazan book of the fallen as each one builds a magical world and such

Martin's books r about political intrigue and how some people r doomed to be pawns to be used killed or thrown away when others more cunning and with the right ambition play more important roles in his world and in their striving to size power, wealth or in some cases love, people get tickets to the otherworld and usually no one achieves what he really wants and if he was lucky to get his desire that won't last long
And in all this u get to see bran, oblivious of other's sorrows, seeking the last magic for he needs to prepare for the day when the true evil comes & when humanity must unite or face extinction

+in another note i really wanted jordan to talk and develop more the characters of Shaitan's ghouls and monsters ( i forgot the name of the one who was like shaitan's hand in the world .. the one who in the final tomes gets to babysit and direct the actions of the generals of evil .. he really was cool with his way of speaking )

Chris wrote: "Ridiculous comparison. If u ever read GoT there is a serious possibility that u wont be able to try WoT. The wrtting skills of Jordan are several degrees worse than Martins. The plot is much more i..."
So you don't like fantasy and ASOIAF is not fantasy, right?

Jordans series is for an older generation. People have read Martins fantasy and my not have heard of Wheel of Time. Besides being a fresher series HBO has turned on a whole new set of readers with their series.

Wheel of Time is too campy and predictable. It follows all the expected tropes.

Game of Thrones is unpredictable. Predictability bores me.

It's predictable in the sense that LoTR is predictable: good vs evil and good wins. But the characters have unpredictable and interesting journeys to their inevitable conclusions, and that makes it worth reading.

Would go for ASOIAF. But then again, it is a very even context.

They are different, and both are worthy to be read. A few times.

ASOIAF is more politics while WoT is the definition of something epic.

Baelor wrote: "Are people SERIOUSLY claiming that WoT is better because ASoIaF gets worse?

WoT? The interminable (I guess not anymore) series with terrible entries in which nothing happens? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Mar..."

Yes, I agree with this.
I've read books 1-4 of WoT and it was decent, but the writing just wasn't there in comparison to aSoIaF. The characters Martin creates are so depthy!

Many people here are right ASoIaF and WoT and not comparable. WoT is so much better than ASoIaF in almost every way i can think of, it is unfair to compare them. I have only read GoT and half of ACoK but I am on the 11th book of WoT.

Both the series take place in the same time period and both are technically Epic Fantasy but WoT is infinitely more so. The most common complaint about WoT is that the detail goes on forever and the books general are too long. Personally i don't know how you could complain about detail, and i wish WoT was longer. The ASoIaF books will surpass the WoT books in lengths in a few years. Wot is long because the Jordan went into extreme detail with every character and every place in every situation. ASoIaF will be just as long because of the non-stop action but this action got extremely boring extremely quick. The battles in WoT are layered and well thought out, the battles in ASoIaF on the other hand, happen every other chapter and are very similar each time. In WoT Jordan spends more time telling you what the characters are thinking and doing than what they are saying. Each Character has a different outlook on what is happening and i have not wanted to skip a single chapter because of boredom. In ASoIaF on the other hand GRRM spends more time on the words of the characters. these words are very similar between characters and in ASoIaF all non-major characters can be set into two categories: rich or poor. In ASoIaF one prostitute is the exact same as the next. In WoT every innkeeper is vastly different.

In goodreads there is a list called "epic fantasy" or something like that. Number one on this list is ASoIaF(in my opinion it should be somewhere around 20th) then there is not another ASoIaF book until almost all of the wheel of time books have been listed.

GRRM is better than Jordan in one or two ways all admit that. GRRM kills main characters. He is good at killing characters and that is one of the reasons ASoIaF is worth reading in my opinion. Sadly these do not stay dead. In my opinion characters should come back to life as rarely as possible and main characters never should. Jordan is worse at killing MAIN characters but at least they don't come back to life (Except for the forsaken who SPOILER: come back; but even then they are in different bodies and have different mindsets). GRRM also is amazing about insest polotics and crap like that.

All in all i think WoT was the best fantasy series ever written(if you haven't figured it out by now i am pretty diehard) Even if is is a little predictable in some aspects. every time you read it you will find things you did not see before. I never said GoT is bad but in my opinion it is nowhere near as good as WoT. If i run out of books i am excited for i will most definitely finish GoT, it is just nowhere near the top of my to-read list.


This is obviously biased and all of this is my opinion. if you think ASoIaF is the best thing ever written great for you. maybe when you are older you will understand wheel of time fully. I dont say that to be mean i just don't get the appeal in GoT, maybe when i'm older i will understand:). Now you have spent 5 minutes reading this, i give all you GRRM fans permission to quote it and rip it apart, but you will not change my mind.

If if you like politics and insest read ASoIaF.

If you like a good plot great writing and have some time on your hands read WoT. you will not be disappointed just don't skip anything that ruins the book.;)

The complaint with Jordan and length is the not just that it's long, but that the descriptions of the characters throughout are so, so, so very repetitive. Nynaeve in real life would be bald from all of the hair tugging. No need for any of the women to iron their clothes, either, from how often they smooth their skirts.

Will wrote: "The complaint with Jordan and length is the not just that it's long, but that the descriptions of the characters throughout are so, so, so very repetitive. Nynaeve in real life would be bald from a..."

yea i know. Its just not a problem with me. first i don't find said descriptions all that repetitive. yes these descriptions are said a lot but thats just Jordans style. If you dont like it o well i dont think its bad enough to stop you from reading the series. in my opinion.

I agree there too, it was still a great series, but I would be lying if I said I wasn't relieved that Sanderson finished writing Jordan's story.

Why is Wheel of Time even liked by anyone? I just don't understand. I don't mean to offend anybody but why is a series that is so slow, has no characterization, no action, no cohesive plot and childish furry villians that look like yogi bear gone wrong popular? I was bored to death less than halfway through. Please someone explain to me what is so epic about this series?! Everybody who likes it just simply says "it's awesome!" and never gives a reason. Why is this series so good? Obviously I'm missing something...

Hannah wrote: "Why is Wheel of Time even liked by anyone? I just don't understand..."

I feel the same about game of thrones but for different reasons. people like wheel of time because 1)it is epic, it is the literal definition of epic fantasy 2)the writing is good 3) the characters are deep, not one dimensional 4) the action is well thought out. even if it does not appear every other page when it does appear it is much better than the action in, for example, ASoIaF. those were the first 4 reasons i enjoyed it there are many more but i already posted one really long comment to this page. the ONLY 2 large problems with it are, as i previously stated, its length and the endless descriptions that are about the same each time (personally i wish it was longer and i don't mind the descriptions).

Wheel of Time. Period. I like WoT better than any epic fantasy series I've ever read. And this coming from a person who also loves SoIaF. It's funny because everyone above is saying they don't like WoT because they feel like nothing ever happens. I feel like WoT just has a better plan, a better story. SoIaF is great! But some things seem superfluous.....I don't know. Almost like George is sittin' up in his mountain cabin, sipping whiskey, thinking, "Who shall I kill off today in order to make more money?" Which is totally badass in its own right. But I like a story that seems to have more behind it. A metaphorical purpose, if you will. It's like the difference between Les Misérables (SoIaF) and The Brothers Karamazov (WoT).

Taryn wrote: "But I like a story that seems to have more behind it. A metaphorical purpose, if you will. It's like the difference between Les Misérables (SoIaF) and The Brothers Karamazov (WoT)."

Those being two of my favorite novels, I appreciate the comparisons to them and would agree in the sense that you've compared them, but I think Les Misérables compares better with WoT and The Brothers Karamazov with SoIaF. Les Misérables is more idealistic and romantic with little grey area in any character's morality like WoT, while The Brothers Karamazov is more realistic with more nuanced characters and more focus on ethical implication.

Mac wrote: "Hannah wrote: "Why is Wheel of Time even liked by anyone? I just don't understand..."

I feel the same about game of thrones but for different reasons. people like wheel of time because 1)it is ep..."

But how is it interesting? I read through waaay over a hundred pages and nothing happened. And the characters are so uninteresting. Every time I ask this no one ever tells me why they find it interesting. Everyone just comes back with saying its good and epic and all that. Can someone please give me reasons?

Interesting question.

WOT is just nice reading. Good vs evil with likable, near immortal, heroes. It's not high literature and if you start reading it at 30 or older you may not get into it at all, but otherwise it's simply the best high fantasy epic out there. Especially if you skip the boring chapters (and/or books).

SoIaF started out great, but I stopped reading it because the story stopped going anywhere. I also felt like Martin was killing people just for the sake of it. Mourn the characters? It's a bloody fantasy novel.

Costagomez wrote: "Especially if you skip the boring chapters (and/or books)"

The fact that you felt the need to include that sentence really tells it all about this series.

Soo much to reply to.

TLDR: WoT is better. 14 books (15 really, plus lots of other material) put out in 23 years. That includes him dying and handing off the series to Sanderson to finish. The average lapse between books was about 2.5 years tops.. with it usually being shorter. Even when he died, and Sanderson finished it, there was only a 4 year gap. That says WoT by itself. Fuck Martin. It has taken him almost 20 years to get 5 books out. And the last two were complete garbage.

Yes, parts of WoT gets bogged down as he delves into the world and characters.. but it is no where near as bad as Martin. And maybe if you could pick up the entire ASoIaF series at once without any wait.. it might be worth it.. but the series will never finish. He is most likely going to die. And unlike most stories.. if we don't get an ending for a story like Martin's, it makes the entire thing a pointless waste of time. He has already said he has no plans to turn it over to anyone else to finish. That alone says stay away until it is actually finished.

Anyways.. on to the replies:

Ben wrote: "Wheel of Time is too campy and predictable. It follows all the expected tropes.

Game of Thrones is unpredictable. Predictability bores me."

It is unpredictable? That is laughable. Oh noes he kills people?!?!?! Yeah cause Melanie Rawn and lots of other authors haven't done that before. Oh but wait.. they don't actually stay dead.. cause that is totally different and unpredictable?!?!?! Ned was the only shock. After that, you are naive if you were surprised. He literally puts in random characters that mean nothing to the overall story.. at all.. and kills them off.. Just so he can be edgy. ooooh he is sooo cool and unpredictable.

All stories are predictable. That doesn't take away from the enjoyment of them unless you want to like xyz more than something else.


Baelor wrote: "Are people SERIOUSLY claiming that WoT is better because ASoIaF gets worse?

WoT? The interminable (I guess not anymore) series with terrible entries in which nothing happens? LOLOLOLOLOLOL.

Mar..."

Riiiiight cause things are always happening in GoT. It is always great to see a dwarf riding a pig. or getting 4525252325232352 pages of descriptions of food. I would rather have the descriptions of dresses from WoT than the nonstop fucking food in GoT.


Christian wrote: "Martin gets my vote. Wheel of Time just kept dragging on and on and the books are stuffed to bursting with unnecessary padding."

Martin's Book 4 and 5 can basically be skipped and it would probably enhance the experience. They are nothing but garbage filler.


Rob wrote: "The single most concerning thing about GRRM's series is that it is exhibiting major signs of Jordan-itis - the tedious focus on the minutiae of daily life, pages and pages of nothing happening, gajillions of characters who do little or nothing to progress things..."


It is funny that you claim Jordan portrays relationships in crass/offensive ways... when you have all kinds of stupid shit going on in GoT, like incest, child rape, etc. Hell, in book 5 we get to see a a girl who owns dragons having a fling with a bad boy. Totally takes things to a new level.

Martin's books were decent for 1-3. They are sooo ridiculously hyped though. He is not that great of a writer. He is a gore-porn writer that lives off shock. It is like saying Saw is a good movie (not referring to financially) because lots of people watched it. It might be entertaining (especially since it is written like a soap opera and works well on TV) but it is not this amazing series.


Will wrote: "The complaint with Jordan and length is the not just that it's long, but that the descriptions of the characters throughout are so, so, so very repetitive. Nynaeve in real life would be bald from a..."

They aren't in GoT? Seriously? You know nothing Jon Snow! (that alone!!)


Ajay wrote: "Jordans series is for an older generation. People have read Martins fantasy and my not have heard of Wheel of Time. Besides being a fresher series HBO has turned on a whole new set of readers wit..."

Older generation? Seriously? WoT just finished a couple years ago -- after Martin's latest book was published. Both are written by old white men for the exact same crowd. Hell, Martin was hoping he would be half as successful as Jordan. His just works better for TV because it is fantasy lite, and he got lucky. He will fade back into obscurity once the show finishes and he is still 10+ years away from finishing. If he is even still alive then.

WoT is campy and cliche overall with VERY little realistic morality (where are the morally gray characters?) with a plot that is basically aimed at children (good vs evil).

That and the repetition in Jordan's writing are my complaints with WoT. But that's independent of GoT bc they are too different to compare.

Will wrote: "WoT is campy and cliche overall with VERY little realistic morality (where are the morally gray characters?) with a plot that is basically aimed at children (good vs evil).

That and the repetitio..."

So you consider LoTR the same? Because it is campy and cliche with very little realistic morality. lol

It is ridiculous to complain about repetition in Jordan's writing.. while claiming Martin's is so good. He is worse than Jordan with the repetition and the fluff -- he just does food instead of dresses, and thank god the stupid girl died before she could say "You know nothing Jon Snow" a billion more times.. I was actually happy over that death.

It is also really sad that a story has to be gore-porn to be considered 'adult'. Frankly there is nothing to care about the characters in GoT because they are only shades of grey. All the good is destroyed.. and instead of moving through it.. we just see the worst in people in GoT. That is just as campy and cliche.. just on the other end of the spectrum.

Yes, I consider LoTR campy and cliche. WoT more so since the first few books borrow so heavily from the tropes used by JRR Tolkien.

Martin's repetition you speak of is the repetition of a topic, but not of phrases and words like Jordan. Martin may go on and on about food, but at least he uses different descriptive words, etc. Jordan literally repeats the exact same phrases and description the whole series. It's a much more annoying type of repetition. I was so glad once Sanderson picked up the writing and improved it so much.

Will wrote: "Yes, I consider LoTR campy and cliche. WoT more so since the first few books borrow so heavily from the tropes used by JRR Tolkien.

Martin's repetition you speak of is the repetition of a topic,..."

Everything borrows from Tolkien, just like he borrowed heavily from the books before him. Nothing new. It is fantasy. You either like those elements or you don't.

No it isn't. He says the same shit over and over and over. You are just justifying why you think Martin is better. Get over it. They do the same exact crap. Martin is probably worse. There are waaay less books and yet 'You know nothing Jon snow' is repeated more times than anything is in WoT.

You just prefer the repetitious bullshit in GoT better.. and thats fine.. But it doesn't make it better in general. Because it is still repetitious bullshit. So if you complain about it happening in one series but are okay with it in another.. it just makes you hypocritical to some degree, and clearly biased because maybe you were hungry at the time you read it. lol It doesn't make repetitious fluff good though in either series.

A phrase said multiple times by a character is hardly the same thing as all of the women smoothing their skirts 1,000 times a book. And the elements that Jordan borrows from JRR are the boring tropes of ultimate good vs ultimate evil. It's not as exciting or as rewarding as following characters who are morally gray.