Pulp Fiction discussion

I recently finished I, The Jury and here's my review for anyone who might be interested.

http://www.goodreads.com/review/show/...

Michael, in your review you said,"...Worse, the viewpoints and language are offensive and it's difficult reading and accepting the character's frequent sexism and racism. I know the book has to be taken as a product of its time, and I do, but I still don’t enjoy the language. While those disturbing attitudes may have been inherent to Mike Hammer, the language used wasn't relevant to the story and I'm confused as to why Spillane chose to include it, especially since it didn't add to the charm, or myth, or valor, of his hero."

Can you give some examples? As I recall, his attitudes were precisely those of the times, which was why they were included. Our society may have changed - 'grown' - beyond some since then. I find it hard to ding a book for that, especially when he was writing popular fiction for the time.

I agree that his attitudes were those of the times but it I felt it was unnecessary for him to use terms like "Jig" and "Darky". Had he used "Negro" and/or "Colored" I wouldn't have thought about it, but the others were, to the best of my knowledge, slurs even back then.

As to the sexism, I didn't have a problem with it, but I did think it was funny.

"Mike," she whispered, "I want you."
"No," I said.
"Yes. You must."
"No."
"But, Mike, why? Why?"

Could it be that you like the above conversation because your name is Mike?

Yeah, I'm not up on what the terms would have been for a black person. Colored was preferred in the mid 60's where I lived in MD or so I was told. I've heard the other terms, but never knew anyone to use it. I never thought they were offensive, just part of the speech patterns.

Spillane's women & love scenes absolutely suck. It's always best when they're just window dressing because he does such a poor job of creating them.

That dialog is really funny. (I guess a character named "Mike Hammer" is bound to be heavy-hammered - er, I mean heavy-handed ... :)

It's beyond heavy-handed. There's just so much fake angst & something that is supposed to be purity or sexual tension that it is actually sickening to read. Hammer supposedly screws around with at least one woman per book, but will never nail Velda. Then, when they're engaged & she's begging for it, he wants to save them both for marriage. Tiger Mann is worse mooning over the younger sister of his lost love or something like that. At least I can usually skim those parts in the books, but audio books hammer (pun intended) such points home.

Melki wrote: "Could it be that you like the above conversation because your name is Mike?"

I admit I did read that exchange a couple of times and highlighted it so I could go back later!

Jim wrote: "but will never nail Velda. Then, when they're engaged & she's begging for it, he wants to save them both for marriage."

That's exactly what happened in this one, too! In the scene I quoted above, the reason he gave her was that they had to wait for marriage.

I hope I don't sound like I'm trashing Spillane/Hammer because I really did enjoy the book a lot. It was just that issue with the racist language I didn't like.

Michael, I was going to say something about just how much racism & sexism there was back then, but in another group, I wound up looking at George R.R. Martin's web site. In a section telling about books he likes, he writes the following:

The passage of half a century has given the America of the early 1950s a certain rosy nostalgic glow in popular memory, but there was a lot more going on back then than one would ever dream from watching NICK AT NITE. Those formative years of us Baby Boomers were an era of unrepentent racism and sexism, Cold War paranoia, stifling conformity, and political repression. The shame of the blacklist and the red scare have been well documented in both fact and fiction (in the first volume of my own WILD CARDS series, among many other places)... but the other great hysteria of the era is less well known, unless you grew up a funny book geek, like me....
http://www.georgerrmartin.com/reading...

If you like watching old movies, you'll see it there, including husbands who will talk about spanking their wives in a matter of fact way. There is also the "How to be a good wife" joke going around. It isn't real, but the basics are:
http://www.snopes.com/language/docume...

So, Spillane's work is dated, no argument. I know you're not trashing him, just pointing out some flaws. Actually, I thought I trashed him worse & I generally like his writing. His writing is far from perfect, but he does have a unique voice that works really well within limits. I think I said something in one of my reviews about him being like John Wayne.

I was recently watching Drums Along the Mohawk, a great movie, and there's a scene where Claudette Colbert is surprised by the the Indian Blue Back and she screams and loses control and Henry Fonda has to slap her to bring her back to her senses!

The sexism didn't bother me but I did find the racist language upsetting and I didn't think it was necessary for the character. I'm not saying I wanted Hammer to be an anachronism and tolerate and accept blacks and share a sandwich with the elevator operator, it was just the hateful language he used made him someone who was very difficult for me to like. Regardless of civil rights and equality, there were still people back in the 40's who didn't hate blacks.

It's funny that you reference George R.R. Martin because I can't stand him anymore!

Were 'jig' & 'darky' particularly bad words back then? I know 'nigger' wasn't polite, but it was used matter of factly in Twain's works & is now a vile insult. I was told 'colored' was more polite than 'black' when I was a kid by a black lady, but a few years later that had changed, I believe. I think these things come & go in society's perceptions.

My uncle would lose his temper if someone called him a 'dago', but never seemed to care about 'wop'. Or was it the other way around? It's been too long & I'd have been slapped silly for using any talk like that.
;-)

I read I, the Jury about 10 years ago. I've never felt compelled to read another Spillane novel since. I just feel like the character Mike Hammer is as deep as a paper bag. He beats the piss out of anyone who gets in his way and beds any woman he wants. It was like reading a straight-to-video movie.
That said, i have since reconsidered the basis of my judgment. (Not my opinion, though - i still think the book stinks.) Mike Hammer isn't a stereotype, as he is thought by many to be the first of his kind, character-wise. No, he's more of a prototype - a true original that was perfected by others later on. (My favorites being Bond, Parker, McGee, John Kelly/Clark, and most recently, Matt Helm.)

Joe wrote: "No, he's more of a prototype - a true original that was perfected by others later on. "

I never thought about it that way before. You're probably right. Still doesn't want to make me read more Mickey Spillane, though.

Joe wrote: "Matt Helm"

I read the first two Matt Helm books years ago. They're a lot different than the movies, aren't they!

I liked the "deep as a paper bag" comment.
Note to self - Avoid Mickey Spillane...

Michael wrote: "Joe wrote: "Matt Helm"

I read the first two Matt Helm books years ago. They're a lot different than the movies, aren't they!"

Never seen the movies, nor do I think I have to. As I understand it, the movies are parodies of the James Bond movies--which themselves are parodies of the James Bond books.
No thanks!

The Matt Helm books are some of my favorites. Hamilton was a much better writer than Spillane. I think you're on to something, Joe.

Well said.

Maybe part of the problem with Hammer's racism for me is that when I read a book I always play the casting game, putting different actors in the roles. When I read a hardboiled story, I put me in the title role and while the fantasy of having every woman throw herself at my feet and every man fall at my feet is a pretty good one, I wasn't able to get past the racist mindset.

Michael wrote: "Joe wrote: "Matt Helm"

I read the first two Matt Helm books years ago. They're a lot different than the movies, aren't they!"

The movies, as well as the Franciosa series which turned him into a private eye, were abominations. I've heard there is an effort to turn Helm into a movie franchise. Early stages though.

There was something on one of the Matt Helm pages about the movie. I think they're hoping for 2013 AND, more importantly, that might also see the release of the final, unpublished book that Hamilton wrote before he died. Hard Case Crime is also supposed to start republishing the Matt Helm books - this year? Or was it next? Whatever, I can't wait. Some of his early paperbacks are nearly as old as I am & in worse shape.
;-)

I have I, the Jury, along with several other Mickey Spillane novels in my to-be-read pile. What impresses me most about Spillane's debut hard-boiled mystery is that he wrote the novel in 19 days, and through hardcover and paperback editions, he managed to sell 6.5 million copies in the US alone. Not bad for what some consider to be a hack writer.

I saw Spillane once on some talk show and he said he once wrote a Hammer, I don't remember the title after this long, over a weekend, doing nothing else but pound that keyboard. He said he never wrote unless he needed money.

I don't know about that. I've always loved his books since I first read I, THE JURY, and make no apologies to those who denigrate the books.

While Spillane is best known for Hammer, his money maker, anyone who likes his tough guy character should try The Erection Set or some of his shorter stories like The Tough Guys or The Long Wait. Avoid Tiger Mann due to the horrible love interest & his YA books. Well, I've only read one of his two YA books, The Ship That Never Was, but that was enough to convince me he has no business writing them.

Michael wrote: "Well said.

Maybe part of the problem with Hammer's racism for me is that when I read a book I always play the casting game, putting different actors in the roles. When I read a hardboiled story,..."

FYI: In The Girl Hunters Spillane cast himself as Mike Hammer. It's a hard to get movie today and it only seems to be available in the UK and then only on VHS. No DVD as far as I can tell. Here's the IMDB link:
http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0057102/