The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

For the week of February 6th - February 12th, we are reading approximately the next 18 pages of Byzantium by Judith Herrin.

The tenth week's reading assignment is:

Week Ten: February 6th - February 12th: :

Chapter 17: Imperial Children,"Born in the Purple" 185
Chapter 18: Mount Athos 192


We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other spotlighted books.

This book was kicked off on December 5th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Borders and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Welcome,

~Bentley


TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Judith Herrin

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations:

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...


Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/5...

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Chapter 17: Imperial Children,"Born in the Purple"

At the beginning of the chapter, Herrin explains what this chapter is about. "The adjective, "born in the purple" (Greek, porpjyrogennetos) derives from the porphyra, purple stone, or hung with purple silk, which was constructed within the Great Palace before 750. In that year Irene, the Khazar princess, who became Constantine's V's first wife, gave birth to a male child, named Leo after his grandfather. He was later identified both as "the Khazar" and porphyrogennetos; he was the first imperial child born in the Purple Chamber. Because of where he was born and the room itself, children born in the room including Leo bore the epithet "born in the purple". This chapter is about these children who were "born in the purple" and what this meant.

Chapter 18: Mount Athos

This chapter is about Mount Athos and how it became a famous holy mountain, how did Mount Athos gets its recruits, what was its history, monastic expansion, Athos' own system of government, the debate over hesychasm and what hesychasm is, and how it is finding its way back in the twenty-first century.

Born in the Purple:

[image error]

Born in the purple - Queen Elizabeth II looks impressive in royal colours

Folks, what did you think of these two chapters. Feel free to jump right in any time.

Mount Athos:

http://www.ouranoupoli.com/athos/atho...

There is a presentation on Mount Athos which is very worthwhile:

60 Minutes:

Part One:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?i...

Part Two:

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?i...

"60 Minutes" cameras capture the monastic life, including chanting, prayers, rituals, and the priceless relics and icons from the Byzantine Empire stored on "The Holy Mountain," Mt. Athos. Bob Simon reports.

Behind the Scenes Travelogue:

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504803_16...

Bastions of the orthodox faith

http://www.cbsnews.com/video/watch/?i...

Father Iakovos, who has been living at the Simonospetras monastery for 25 years, explains why the monasteries were built like fortresses.

Photos of Mount Athos:

http://www.cbsnews.com/2300-18560_162...

What did the group think about the fact that Mount Athos has largely remained as it was so many years ago?

What surprised you when reading these chapters about the Imperial Children or Mount Athos?

Bentley wrote: "What did the group think about the fact that Mount Athos has largely remained as it was so many years ago?

What surprised you when reading these chapters about the Imperial Children or Mount Athos?"

I was surprised to learn there was a real purple room in which the children were born. I had always thought it meant the royal children were allowed to wear purple.

I was with you Patricrk on that one; the special purple cloth that was so expensive. Obviously, the result of the purple room.

I now understand the origin of the expression "born in the purple"
It was interesting the way so many things were kind of ritualised/institutionalised...(not sure of the correct word here),I guess having standard practices and protocols emphasised the authority/distance of royalty.
So many fascinating stories in this chapter- I love the idea of a room lined with porphyry-and the general abundance of gold, glitter, precious stones throughout this book :). To say nothing of the many powerful women:)- this did not seem to have been common in ancient Greece..Also the fact that Imperial offspring were actually not supposed to marry foreigners/ or at least outside the boundaries of the empire- that meant that Byzantines were more sutiable as prospective partners even if they were lower in rank? Also that third and fourth marriages were practically outlawed.

Yes Aparajita, and it was an authority and distance at the time that the royalty wanted to convey and maintain.

That is true about the desirability of the Byzantines and I guess they felt that if you could not get it right the first two times then maybe you should just give up (smile). Unless of course your spouse had passed away.

Very appropriate picture of Queen Elizabeth, Bentley. Made me laugh!

I also agree on the confusion as to what "born in the purple" meant. I guess I was thinking it meant something like "royal from birth." I think this is one of the down-sides of the thematic approach to a section of history. Herrin has been using that phrase "born in the purple" throughout the book, but doesn't explain what it means until now.

It makes me wonder if queens were not allowed to travel once pregnancy was discovered. Because if you weren't close enough to the Magic Purple Room when labor started... And I wonder if birth location was ever, well, fudged. Probably not without a lot of heavy bribes, huh.

Yes, (smile) not exactly the correct meaning of born in the purple but the caption of the picture said that and there was a lot of purple - which by the way - I think the Queen looked good in.

I think they probably stayed close when the time came. Most mothers do the same thing nowadays really; they want to be close to their hospital of choice and their doctor.

I too Elizabeth S had the same meaning for the phrase and never thought the term originated with an actual purple birthing room during the Byzantine Empire. This book has enlightened me on many different things.

I find it fascinating how the term porphyrogennetos found its way into the language for centuries to come, and how somehow being born in that magical room was a sign of worthiness.

And I'm very curious to know more about Mt. Athos. Thanks for the links! To have stayed the same for that long is remarkable. Wasn't it mentioned that it was even before the widespread use of bells? Yow.

Well you had to give the Empress of that time period kudos with coming up that goodie. And of course imperial families nowadays are not I am sure born in a room lined with purple cloth etc. but isn't it amazing that the terminology has been passed down and it has that certain imperial understanding and meaning.

I do hope you take advantage of the 60 minutes links that I posted above because it is a fascinating place even today and according to the piece it has not changed much. I am not sure about the bells part. But you may know more about that than I do.

Thank you very much for the links about Mt Athos, Bentley. This documentary really made me happy, especially because ladies won't ever be allowed to see the monasteries in person!
It's fascinating how well they are maintained, and how they look so like small Mediterranean cities. Oh and how so magnificent they look situated on the cliffs! Really beautiful and extraordinary sight, and such a dignified tranquility and spiritual happiness among monks... Mr Simon did really great job here - sorry for babbling, I am not English, I am trying, but can't to think of any worthier praise.

You are welcome Zeljika and they are beautiful indeed. And you are doing a very good job discussing these books in English.

I am glad you like the links and were able to view them.