Robert E. Howard Readers discussion

I enjoy the Conan stories, but I tend to prefer Bran Mak Morn and Solomon Kane, what about you?

I've always liked Conan better than Bran Mak Morn & never liked Solomon Kane at all, but I think one of my favorite characters is Breckenridge Elkins. A Gent From Bear Creek always gets me chuckling.

I like all of Howard's S & S. I probably like Bran the best, although I enjoy the Cormac and Wulfhere stories a lot. Have any of you read "Legion from the Shadows," The Bran Mak Morn pastiche from Karl Edward Wagner? It's my favorite pastiche.

It's been a while since I've read most of Howard's books. I'm not altogether certain which authors I liked the best or all that I've read. I do know that I was terribly disappointed by some & quit buying new Conan stuff sometime in the early 80's.

I really did like the Carter-DeCamp version of Kull better than one I read later that was strictly Howard, supposedly. I loaned out the former & it never came back. I bought the latter, was disappointed & spent quite a bit of time & money tracking down another copy of the first.

It amazes me what some books are selling for now. I quit loaning out some books. The first Casca book, Casca: The Eternal Mercenary was hard to replace. I'd picked up In a Lonely Place as a paperback years ago for $2 or so & now you can't find it except as a $100+ hardback.

Exorcisms and Ecstasies was in a 70% off book store (they sold all the books cleared out of new stores when they didn't sell) for $5 or so. I wish I'd bought all the copies there. Now it sells for about $100+ too.

If liking a character is an index of interest, of the three barbarian-warrior-type heroes I've actually read about in fiction by Howard, I guess Conan and Kull are the most interesting. Even though they're barbarians, they're not vicious brutes; they're men of integrity, who live honorably by a basic warrior code and often display real virtues in their behavior.

To be honest, though, I'd have to say the REH character who interested me the most was Valeria in "Red Nails." :-) Obviously, I like strong, tough, brave heroes; but I'm even more of a sucker for a strong, tough, brave heroine! Howard also created the character of Red Sonya (he spelled it that way, though most adapters don't), and I'd probably have cited her just on the strength of the movie version starring Brigette Neilsen; but I understand that, in the Howard story featuring her, she actually lives in historical times and isn't a contemporary of Conan --so I've never actually encountered the character the way Howard envisioned her. I do hope to read that story sometime, though.

Sowers of the Thunder is 4 short stories of 'historical' fiction, if I remember correctly. At least the first story is very memorable to me. Depressing, but it's about a warrior who is captured with his young charge. The boy is whipped to death, the warrior sentenced to a galley where he lives for a couple of decades. His ship is destroyed, but he fights free & finds the guy that destroyed his life & young charge. Kills him & goes off to die, I think.

There was a similar kind of story in that book as well. Something about a man who fought for Tamerlane maybe. Donald? Again, the driven man who lives for but one thing. I think the king kills the woman he loves (who was a bad girl) & it sends him over the edge.

Anyway, I just loved the way he portrayed these men. Really awesome.

I prefer them in this order:

El Borak
Solomon Kane
Conan
Dark Agnes
Bran Mak Morn
Brian Turlugh
Cormac

Pat, the name you're trying to remember is Agnes de la Fere (a.k.a. "Dark Agnes"). I've never read the stories in which she appears, but I definitely want to sometime. (As well as the ones with Belit.)

Pat wrote: "I forget the woman's name, but she was the heroine of Sword Woman, in The Second Book of Robert E Howard. I would gladly have read reams about her, but unfortunately my copy of the book disintegra..."

Belit was awesome but she was more of a tragic heroine, a great love that made Conan more human.

Dark Agnes is the only female heroine REH tried to make a series for so he shared our interest for her.

Many of Howard's characters share similarities, but Conan is undoubtedly the most popular. The Cimmerian is, and probably will always be, REH's most-liked character. Why is that? I'm curious to read opinions and viewpoints regarding this. Definitely the comic books and the movies played a big role in Conan's popularity; nevertheless, Conan was Howard's preferred character even back in the 1930's.

The boxning stories,western comedy stories was more popular,the stories he sold most. Conan was his most popular fantasy character in WT. Every REH scholar can tell you he was more popular in boxning stories and western comedy. He sold much more humor boxning too.

Conan is his most popular in other mediums and WT era but Solomon Kane has near as many fans in REH book fans.

I know the feeling, Pat! :-)

Ó Ruairc wrote: "Many of Howard's characters share similarities, but Conan is undoubtedly the most popular. The Cimmerian is, and probably will always be, REH's most-liked character. Why is that? I'm curious to ..."

I'd think that Conan is most popular due to the background history of the Hyborian Age, which ties the stories together, gives a consistency to the narrative and a feeling for the reader that you're actually discovering and exploring a completely new world. It's an immersive experience similar to (but not as deeply developed as) Tolkien's Middle-earth.

It's also tempting (and satisfying) to fill in gaps for yourself and imagine new adventures, which various writers have obviously done with varying degrees of success.

Also, did Robert E. Howard pretty much invent the Sword & Sorcery genre (even if Fritz Leiber named it) with Conan? Well, there's something special about being the original isn't there?

I had the same thought, Michael. Indeed, I think one of the reasons why Conan is such a well-loved and illustrious character stems from the world which Howard placed him in - the Hyborian Age. You're right about Tolkien's Middle Earth. In "Lord of the Rings," however, the characters weren't a major factor in the appeal of the book; rather, it was the world which Tolkien invented. Conan, on the other hand, looms large in the Hyborian Age, and it's his actions in that mythical era that create the meat and drink of Howard's 21 "Conan" stories.

Michael wrote: "Ó Ruairc wrote: "Many of Howard's characters share similarities, but Conan is undoubtedly the most popular. The Cimmerian is, and probably will always be, REH's most-liked character. Why is that?..."

There were S&S like stories before him like by Lord Dunsany but it wasnt a grim stories of action,weird,horror. It was more fantastical,lyrical stories about heroes and wizards. Its not being first that made REH stand out its because how he perfected the type of story and made it appealing to many readers from then to now. Just think about the many copy cats Barbarians in fantasy running around today and then.

Mohammed wrote: "There were S&S like stories before it like by Lord Dunsany but it wasnt a grim stories of action,weird,horror. It was more fantastical,lyrical stories about heroes and wizards.."

I've read some Dunsany and agree that he's more whimsical and dreamy than Howard. I know that he was an inspiration for REH, Lovecraft, Ashton Smith and their circle, but I'd considered him a precursor of S&S rather than an originator. Then again I haven't read loads of his stuff, so I might well have missed the relevant stories.

Michael wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "There were S&S like stories before it like by Lord Dunsany but it wasnt a grim stories of action,weird,horror. It was more fantastical,lyrical stories about heroes and wizards.."

..."

I have read his S&S and he is definitly precursor than originator. He is legendary for dreamy,folklore fantasy. His S&S in style is more closer to Leiber,Moorcock minus he doesnt do fantasy action exactly.

The same with elves,goblins and the things Tolkien is known to be first with, Lord Dunsany wrote alot about way before him.

Mohammed wrote: "Michael wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "There were S&S like stories before it like by Lord Dunsany but it wasnt a grim stories of action,weird,horror. It was more fantastical,lyrical stories about heroes ..."

I've read The King of Elfland's Daughter, which is definately elfie and gobliny, and Tales of Three Hemispheres, which is similar to early Lovecraft (rather, the other way around). I've got The Charwoman's Shadow and DON RODRIGUEZ; CHRONICLES OF SHADOW VALLEY to read... eventually! Bit off topic now - this should probably be in the Other Writers thread.

Michael wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "Michael wrote: "Mohammed wrote: "There were S&S like stories before it like by Lord Dunsany but it wasnt a grim stories of action,weird,horror. It was more fantastical,lyrical stor..."

Yeah you can prolly move these posts. About Lovecraft and Lord Dunsany, i have read HPL trying to write like Lord Dunsany. The irish great is as you can see in my profile one of my alltime favs along with REH.

The King of Elfland's Daughter was painfully beautiful read:)

Michael wrote: "I'd think that Conan is most popular due to the background history of the Hyborian Age, "

That's a lot of it for me, in addition to Conan being a compelling character. I read enough "real-world" fiction and reach for the escape of my favorite fantasy writers when time is limited, which is always of late. Also why I like REH's horror stories ... that added dose of the fantastic element.

After all these years, I've never bothered to read the Hyborian age essay & like Conan the best of all Howard's characters. I'm not positive why. Maybe it's that he's so unencumbered by today; morally, historically or in any other way.

For instance, Solomon Kane is a Puritan, a type that I regard with deep suspicion, at best. Even El Borak is an 'American', which brings with it some history. Not Conan. He's footloose & fancy free, so my imagination has no reservations.

Your rationality for why you like Conan the best of all Howard's characters makes a lot of sense, Jim. I'd venture to say much of Conan's popularity is due to the reasons you have described. To be sure, there must be not a few explanations why Conan is Howard's most beloved character, but I think you really put the axe to the root.
In my own opinion, I think another argument for Conan's popularity springs from this: Conan seems to be a combination of all Howard's characters. For instance, when reading the stories, I see in Conan the morality of Solomon Kane, the moody Gaelic nature of Cormac Mac Art, the self-reliance of many of his western heroes, the credulousness of Dennis Dorgan, and the wild and untamed characteristics of Esau Cairn.

Jim wrote: "After all these years, I've never bothered to read the Hyborian age essay & like Conan the best of all Howard's characters. I'm not positive why. Maybe it's that he's so unencumbered by today; mo..."

Have you read all the Kane stories or some stories ? Kane main faith is the fantatic way he follows his view on justice. Kane world many has written about has no real world religion. Its historical real world but its very dark with old,dark gods.

EL Borak as the name says is an arab,afghan warrior. He went very native and his american side is like mentioned in one story.

Conan is great but he cant compete with those two for me because of they are grimmer,more hardcore,realistic bleakness in their stories.

Mohammed, I have read several of the SK stories, but running around performing justice in the name of a fairy tale is just creepy. While he's pretty much like Howard's other heroes, his motivations always make me suspicious & I just don't like him.

That's something else I like best about Conan - his theology. He & his god generally ignore one another. Crom actually makes sense as a god.

Jim wrote: "Mohammed, I have read several of the SK stories, but running around performing justice in the name of a fairy tale is just creepy. While he's pretty much like Howard's other heroes, his motivation..."

But Jim that sounds like your views on theology getting in to your reading. I dont agree with any of the religion parts but i try to keep my own views out. Also as an african i dont agree with old look on the dark contintent that you see in Kane stories...

Kane is much more heroic while he is a fanatatic,darker than every other REH hero. His world is creppy as hell. Kane travels two contitents ina story to avenge a girl he just met in the woods. That made him despite his faults one of the most heroic heroes i have read.

There is an unforgettable scene in "Red Nails" where Conan is trying to rescue the girl, Valeria. When he charges into the chamber where she is about to be tortured by her captors, Conan steps on a hidden 'bear trap.' The massive steel jaws of the trap are so tightly clamped on Conan's leg that not even he can pry them apart. Anyway, as the story goes, Conan instinctively reaches for his sword in order to hack his own leg off so he can save the girl. Conan, of course, doesn't sheer his leg off (his sword was not in its scabbard); nevertheless, the mere fact that he almost did puts him right up there with the Knights of the Round Table, in my opinion. Talk about a heroic hero! No, in truth, a barbaric heroic hero would probably be a more fitting appellation.

Jim, I've never read any of the SK stories, so I don't have any brief for the character as such. (Though the concept intrigues me, and I have Howard's Kane tales on my to-read shelf.) And I'd say that there's nothing wrong with letting our views on theology affect our reaction to literature; "all fiction should be true," as Mary E. Wilkins Freeman put it, so our deepest views about truth naturally color our evaluation of how an author or a character sees things. I do the same thing; being a Christian, my reactions often tend to be the polar opposite of yours, but like you I'm more naturally sympathetic to characters who share my beliefs (of course, those differ from 17th-century Calvinism in certain ways!), and am drawn to stories that reflect my worldview. But that said, I do have a bit different perspective on character's motivations.

Broadly speaking, all humans of goodwill and decent dispositions recognize a common bedrock code of how other people should be treated, and what kinds of character qualities are good and desirable (what C. S. Lewis famously called "the Tao"). Both in fiction and in real life all through history, that code has led people of widely varying beliefs to do things that have the common goal of trying to make the world better for others. (And their ways of promoting that goal can involve methods that are aggressive and proactive just as well as those that are passive and remedial; comforting and patching up an injured rape victim would be a good example of the latter, but running a sword through the rapist might be helpful at times as well.) In seeking that goal, they all tend to draw inspiration and moral strength from their own deeply-held beliefs, whatever they are. I can applaud kind and heroic actions even if I don't share the belief system that happens to strengthen and inspire their doers. (An example would be the Star Trek world, in books and drama; its writers and characters share a secular humanist vision of Utopia attained by "education" and social engineering which I view as as much a "fairy tale" as you think that Christianity is, but their view of the universe inspires the Star Trek characters to constructive and kind ways of interacting with each other and with the aliens they encounter, and I can appreciate that enough to be something of a Star Trek fan.) That's just a thought, for whatever it might be worth!

Mohammed, why wouldn't my views on theology get into my reading? I don't trust religious fanatics (or any other for that matter) so that tends to make me not like SK as a hero as much as someone less fettered, such as Conan.

The Africa that Howard & Burroughs wrote about seems like a fantasy world to me, like Barsoom. I find that different than basic human motivations.

Werner, what you say makes sense & I think you understand my reservations with SK.

Jim wrote: "Mohammed, why wouldn't my views on theology get into my reading? I don't trust religious fanatics (or any other for that matter) so that tends to make me not like SK as a hero as much as someone l..."

I mean you could not read Kane and dislike just because he looks like a puritan. He is a man who has lost his fate by the way. I see your point but i think its fairer to the author to dislike what is actually on the pages and not what it looks like. You should more like find it more interesting how Howard does a world where there isnt a christian god there is more like ancient,horrible gods Kane fights to save people from.

Of course we all read with our own views but there is a big leap to putting in things that are not in the pages.

I thought the discussion was about which character interested us the most, which - to me - is which one I like the most. SK falls behind Conan for the reasons I mentioned. It's not as if I haven't read any of his stories simply because of his religion.

Jim, I can understand your preference (and I think it's good that you did give SK a try, even if you did have reservations!). All of us are going to have our own individual preferences, colored by a thousand things; none of them are right or wrong. Goodreads would be a much duller place if we all liked exactly the same things, since half the fun of it is comparing notes and seeing different perspectives.

I find Kane interesting as a character because he channels his darkness into combating the dark. He seems to be a very conflicted person who uses his religion as a crutch - an excuse to vent his violent urges against the sinful and unjust.

He is a fanatic, as Jim says, and his thirst for justice often seems less grounded in empathy for the victim than in punishing transgression of what he holds to be right. Case in point, The One Black Stain.

In this poem, Kane stands alone against Sir Francis Drake to condemn him for his unlawful trial of a traitor (not named in the poem, but obviously drawn from Drake's controversial trial of Thomas Doughty). Kane's objection is not that the man is innocent, but that Drake has unfairly tried him:
"Worthy of death he may well be,
but the trial ye held was mockery,
"Ye hid your spite in a travesty
where justice hid her face.

"More of the man had ye been, on deck
your sword to cleanly draw
"In forthright fury from its sheath
and openly cleave him to the teeth --
"Rather than slink and hide beneath
a hollow word of the law."

So Kane ends up shackled in the brig, not for standing up for a man, but for a principal. That, I think, is a big difference between him and Conan: Conan would have probably lopped Drake's head off in an act of "natural justice", while Kane, having made his point, stands back while sentence is carried out on the traitor (though that's not the end of the story!)

Kane is more complicated and that's why I like him. In any given situation you pretty much know what Conan will do - Kane, you're not so sure.

Oh, and I really like his hat!

Back to the character of Conan, I'm going to throw this out here just for the hell of it:

Howard once wrote, "It may sound fantastic to link the term 'realism' with Conan; but as a matter of fact - his supernatural adventures aside - he is the most realistic character I ever evolved."

I think this statement offers a link insofar as explaining why Conan is REH's most popular character.

Another thing to keep in mind here is why I read Howard's stories. I don't read them for anything other than sheer enjoyment & escapism. Conan & his world have absolutely nothing to do with my world, so are perfect - reality is almost completely unfettered.

I guess someone could draw some parallels between Aquilonian politics & those of the real world, but I don't have to believe them.
;-)

Michael wrote: "I find Kane interesting as a character because he channels his darkness into combating the dark. He seems to be a very conflicted person who uses the his religion as a crutch - an excuse to vent hi..."

Thats how i feel Kane is more complex and Conan is awesome but he is more fantasy to the fans. The guy that conquers everything that you want to be. Nobody wants to be Kane with him flaws,his principles.

I dig Conan but i dont admire what he stands for like i do Kane despite his flaws.

Conan is still my favorite, but I love El Borak and Solomon Kane as well. Turlogh O'Brien as well.
Bran Mak Morn is "Worms of the Earth". That is probably one of REH's best stories ever in any genre.
Breckinridge Elkins and Steve Costigan make me laugh out loud.

Justin Geoffrey. It's okay, feel free to look at me in an odd manner.

Now that I've read Sword Woman, I have a new favorite Howard character: Agnes de la Ferre!

Steve Harrison bar none, though Steve Costigan, El Borak & Solomon Kane I love as well.

Whenever I read a Harrison yarn I can't help but think of Josh Brolin playing him. I would love for Lord of the Dead to be made into a film, with Brolin as Harrison Jet Li as Erlik Khan.

Jet Li would be perfect as Erlik Khan! Great choice.

Very few reads give me a movie while I read them and Lord of the Dead was the first in a long time, luckily I am rather new to howard so I am able to read these stories as a fan of his work for the first time, one of the only good reasons to get into howard later in life. and also Lucy Liu would of made a perfect Joan La Tour.

I like Bran Mak Morn. I like Solomon Kane. Actually, I like all REH's characters, no exception.

BUT, I really, really, REALLY enjoy Conan's stories. Can't find a way around it. I just love the series.

The Conan stories certainly have a magic of their own that is appealing.