Brain Pain discussion

Discussion Schedule

April 16 – 22, 2012 – We will discuss the Ryūnosuke Akutagawa short stories, In a Grove and Rashomon together with Akira Kurosawa’s movie Rashomon

The Akutagawa stories are in the public domain and can be found here:

http://www.feedbooks.com/book/4205/in...

http://www.feedbooks.com/book/4254/ra...

Both stories are only a few pages long and can be downloaded to an ereader, or as a PDF file which can be printed and read on paper for those without an ereader. The stories are also available in this collection from Penguin: Rashomon and Seventeen Other Stories

The Kurosawa film is widely available. A nicely presented version is available from The Criterion Collection.

http://www.amazon.com/Rashomon-Criter...

A google search for “rashomon script” will give links to a few continuity scripts for any of you who would like to read a translated version. It isn’t necessary to read the script – watching the movie will be enough for the purposes of our discussion.


IMPORTANT: These discussion threads will remain open indefinitely. If you find yourself behind in the reading or if you have joined the group after the dates listed above, go ahead and read at your own pace and discuss when you want. The moderator and other members will gladly join in!


Questions, Resources, and General Banter

Feel free to post questions and links to resources in this thread.

Oh boo. I might not have the film in time. Will we be discussing the books and film all at the same time, I suppose...well, reading the script will be better than nothing I suppose, but a lot of cinematic techniques that are quite different to that of literature come into play when a piece of literature is translated into the cinematic medium.

So, of course, it is quite a different thing to view a piece of cinema than to merely read the script.

Traveller wrote: "Oh boo. I might not have the film in time. Will we be discussing the books and film all at the same time, I suppose...well, reading the script will be better than nothing I suppose, but a lot of ..."

As with all things Brain Pain, schedules are only suggestions...

The two short stories are very short and can be read in less than an hour, so once you receive the movie, you can be online discussing all three in less than three hours, so, no stress...

Read one of them already. ;)

Looks like a great project - I've found a version of Rashomon on line[ http://archive.org/details/dom-24164-... ] which seems ok, I've only watched a minute or so.

Christine wrote: "Looks like a great project - I've found a version of Rashomon on line[ http://archive.org/details/dom-24164-... ] which seems ok, I've only watched a minute or so."

Thanks for the link!

Now you tell us! I already gone an paid some good money f'rit... but better that way - then there'll be no guilt.
Thanks for the link. :)

I've seen the film several times-it's magnificent & somehow frightening at the same time. Not even so much as for the violence but the radically different versions of the truth, the discrepancy of people's experience, sometimes for self-interest and other times shaped by their own past and personality-makes me feel that bottom line "just the facts, ma'am" doesn't hold.

I have to reread the book-the radical contradictions did not seem as clear to me there, although the complexity of individual experience did.

Ellie wrote: "I've seen the film several times-it's magnificent & somehow frightening at the same time. Not even so much as for the violence but the radically different versions of the truth, the discrepancy of ..."

It's arguably one of Kurosawa's best films. The versions of the story told and how he chose to film the scenes is extremely powerful. Definitely in my top 100 films of all time!

This is my favorite Kurosawa film, and one of my favorite films. I'll go past top 100, and say top 20 for me. And like others have said, the film can be found online (although you won't be making a mistake buying the criterion collection version, those are some amazing special features...)

Anyway, I'm looking forward to this, as I haven't read the short stories!

Casey wrote: "This is my favorite Kurosawa film, and one of my favorite films. I'll go past top 100, and say top 20 for me. And like others have said, the film can be found online (although you won't be making a..."

There are so many films I love I just can't narrow down any lower than 100 - LOL!

This is an intense drama and shows Kurosawa at his best. It also gives us a great chance to discuss the choices writers make when they decide how best to tell their stories. Here, in Akutagawa/Kurosawa we have the individual versions of the events told, but then we have the unspoken story of what constitutes truth/reality. Marvelous!

Thank you for the link-it was wonderful to see this film again. Kurasawa is one of my most favorite directors-it's easier to list favorite directors then films.

I've just finished "In a Grove" & what I find most interesting is that I can see how all the stories make sense, how each narrator perceives the situation & what their investment in their version is. Certainly the thief has his own inverted pride to protect.

Can we discuss these yet? Just the seperate stories not the film? Because I don't quite 'get' the yam gruel story, and thought a nudge in the right direction would be nice..

Traveller wrote: "Can we discuss these yet? Just the seperate stories not the film? Because I don't quite 'get' the yam gruel story, and thought a nudge in the right direction would be nice.."

We're only looking at In a Grove and Rashomon and I don't remember any mention of gruel...

Jim wrote: "Traveller wrote: "Can we discuss these yet? Just the seperate stories not the film? Because I don't quite 'get' the yam gruel story, and thought a nudge in the right direction would be nice.."

W..."

Oh, ok, then maybe it won't matter if someone can give me a heads-up about the gruel story, even if slightly off-topic before the discussion proper starts? If you don't mind? It's one of the other stories in the short story volume. It seems like a kind of fable, but I don't really understand what the point of it is.

Anyway sorry for mentioning it then, I thought maybe we might be discussing all of the short stories in the volume you had marked, though I know you singled out Rashomon and In a Grove...

Am I in trouble now? :P

Traveller wrote: "Am I in trouble now? :P..."

Dude, you are sooo in trouble!

Unfortunately, I don't have a copy of the book, so I can't help out here. Anyone who wants to talk yam gruel, please do!

Sometimes with Asian literature you have to put on your zen philosopher hat to find meaning.

I have it and have been meaning to read this one. I love Akira Kurosawa movies. I'll read this as soon as I'm done with Naked Lunch.

I saw "Yam Gruel" (***spoiler alert***) as joy in anticipation of something being crushed by its achievement. Goi was content with his crap life when he had a taste of yam gruel to look forward to every year. Being given all the yam gruel he wanted, he was left with no dream but just his crap life.

For his part, I thought Toshihito was a master manipulator, essentially enslaving Goi (and Toshihito's fox / wife before him), by playing on their desires. I suppose he could even have been a symbol of that desire overreaching itself. I suspect there are other more uniquely Japanese things going on here as well - anyone else?

Thanks Whitney! * WARNING: serious spoilers ahead*

Ah, so Akutagawa is a lot more subtle than I'd given him credit for. I'd heard he has a penchant for adding a bit of horror/cruelty to his stories, so when (view spoiler)[ Toshihito invited him for the gruel, I thought at first that he was going to make a cruel joke on Goi, since everybody seemed to enjoy walking all over poor old Goi. (Ok, he did play a cruel joke on him, in a way, but I meant a less subtle, more obvious one, one that made a public laughing stock of him and/or that he would hurt him in a more physical sense.)

I was also toying with the idea at some stage, perhaps, that Toshito might be making an acolyte out of Goi because he wanted to use him for some dirty job, you know, like for instance he wanted to use Goi to dispose of someone Toshito wanted out of the way or something.

Then when I saw preparations for the gruel actually being made, I had kind of expected Toshihito was going to force him to eat so much that he'd start vomiting or even eat himself to death, which would have fit in with my expectation of psychological horror. (hide spoiler)]

It seems that the author is indeed quite a lot more subtle and sophisticated than that though. I did suspect that what you said was the implication of the story, but I wasn't too sure. So thanks again, you've heightened my appreciation of Akutagawa greatly!

Thanks, Traveller - glad you liked my interpretation! (It is only my interpretation though, I always reserve the right to be way off the mark). Also, (****minor spoiler alert***), thinking about this, it occurred to me that Toshihito is essentially, if not actually, Satan.

I read the two shorts stories as part of the collection in Rashomon and Seventeen Other Stories. I'm going to finish the rest of the book, but I've fulfilled this requirement. I finished rewatching the film. I had seen most of Akira Kurosawa's films years ago. Any that I could find.

I read Ambrose Bierce's The Moonlit Road since the multiple perspective was inspired by his short story. The Akutagawa collection is a great book. It has a summary of Ryūnosuke Akutagawa's life, a brief description of some of the short stories, including the fact that Moonlit Road inspired In the Bamboo Grove. It also has a nice foreword by Haruki Murakami regarding Akutagawa's influence on Japanese literature. The book was translated by Jay Rubin, who has translated numerous major Japanese work, including most of Murakami's.

The title In the Bamboo Grove suggests that the truth is lost in the woods. The movie differs from the short in that it gives a fourth viewpoint, the ax man's, which seemed to be the most impartial. The terrific thing about the short story is that the reader is forced to participate and come up with a personal conclusion as to what really happened. I think if we were to discuss what really happened, we would have to discuss the short separately from the movie, because the movie is more definitive in making it seem like the ax man's story is the most impartial and hence most accurate.

Aloha wrote: "I read the two shorts stories as part of the collection in Rashomon and Seventeen Other Stories. I'm going to finish the rest of the book, but I've fulfilled this requirement. I fini..."

We'll be discussing this all the week of April 16th. Please join in that discussion too!

Oops! I jumped the gun. This is such an easy topic because I'm familiar with this tale. I hope my memory is fresh enough to be able to have an in depth discussion. I'm a focus 100% on the current book kind of person, so I'm terrible about wanting to discuss a past book when I'm thinking about the book I'm currently reading.

Yes, I also wish we could have this discussion earlier. Read the stories and got the movie... so just waiting for the date to arrive..

I'm also champing at the bit for this one. While Aloha backs up into the starting gate, I'll add some more general comments.

I read "In a Grove" many years ago, due to also being a huge Kurosawa fan. I wasn't that taken with it at the time. Rereading it and the other stories in the book, I am really loving them now. I was inspired to get the collection with the Jay Rubin translation and Murakami introduction that Aloha mentioned above. This version also has a chronology and story notes. Highly recommend checking it out for those interested in pursuing more Akutagawa - I know everyone on Brain Pain was feeling short of reading material.

I reread "In a Grove" in the different translations. While Rubin's is superior, I didn't see any points at which the essential story was different. I don't think reading different versions will affect the discussion if anyone was concerned.

Ditto, Whitney. I have tons more to say, but then I'll be sprinting off again. LOL.

Oh, BTW, I'm going over House of Leaves, researching materials and going back to the book to look at it closely. This is a brilliant work! I absolutely love this book. The structure is one of a kind and amazing.

Hahahah- I think we might have to stage a revolt here!

Hellooo, Jim! ?? ...could we start earlier?

Who is against starting earlier?

I'm definitely for it!

I think we're fast on our way to staging a coup. If nobody is against it, we have more than a democratic majority. How about we start no later than Saturday the 14th... Jim? ..with Jim's permission?

That's only 2 days ahead of schedule, but it gives us the weekend. ..or what would suit other members?

Of which Jim is the boss... :P

Traveller wrote: "Hahahah- I think we might have to stage a revolt here!

Hellooo, Jim! ?? ...could we start earlier?

Who is against starting earlier?"

Occupy Brain Pain!!!!

Give me 'til Monday to organize my notes and I'll open the discussion thread

Thanks, Jim!

Ah, you posted while I was still mumbling along in the previous post.. thanks Jim! :) Very kind, you are.

I know you probably have your plan for the topic of perspectives all planned out, but I highly recommend reading House of Leaves for a most unique, dynamic and non-linear method of dealing with perspectives.

Aloha wrote: "I know you probably have your plan for the topic of perspectives all planned out, but I highly recommend reading House of Leaves for a most unique, dynamic and non-linear method of dea..."

House of Leaves will be part of Cluster Headache 2, which is an extension of this first themed read about multiple points of view. CH2 begins immediately on the heels of CH1. I haven't worked out the schedule yet, but would anticipate HOL to come up around late September or so.

Jim wrote: "Discussion Schedule

April 16 – 22, 2012 – We will discuss the Ryūnosuke Akutagawa short stories, In a Grove and Rashomon together with Akira Kurosawa’s movie Rashomon

The Akutagawa stories are in..."

OUCH! I thought we were just discussing the 2 stories, is it all of them now? I'd like to know before I spend yet more money on books:-)

Chris44 wrote: "Jim wrote: "Discussion Schedule

April 16 – 22, 2012 – We will discuss the Ryūnosuke Akutagawa short stories, In a Grove and Rashomon together with Akira Kurosawa’s movie Rashomon

The Akutagawa st..."

You are correct. We are discussing In a Grove, Rashomon, and watching the Kurosawa movie, Rashomon. I listed the Penguin Rashomon book for those members who prefer a hard copy book rather than an ebook.

This book has been on my list 'to read' for some time now. I can't wait. The film is wonderful. If you haven't seen it you can watch it here on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhHkDb... (I'm new here by the way, so 'hello' )

Welcome, Roslyn!

Jim wrote: " I listed the Penguin Rashomon book for those members who prefer a hard copy book rather than an ebook. .."

I thwarted your scheme and got the Penguin book as an ebook. You can't control me, man!

Whitney wrote: "Jim wrote: " I listed the Penguin Rashomon book for those members who prefer a hard copy book rather than an ebook. .."

I thwarted your scheme and got the Penguin book as an ebook. You can't control me, man!..."

Good one!

Same.here! We're rebels!

Roslyn wrote: "This book has been on my list 'to read' for some time now. I can't wait. The film is wonderful. If you haven't seen it you can watch it here on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LhHkDb......"

Thanks for the link, Roslyn and welcome to the group!

Aloha wrote: "Welcome, Roslyn!"

Thank you! ;-)

Jim wrote: Thanks for the link, Roslyn and welcome to the group!

you're welcome, and thank you. Oh and it was me who posted the 'brain pain' link in the Atlantic article re slow reading... ;-)

Roslyn wrote: "Jim wrote: Thanks for the link, Roslyn and welcome to the group!

you're welcome, and thank you. Oh and it was me who posted the 'brain pain' link in the Atlantic article re slow reading... ;-)"

Thanks for the Atlantic link. Many new members found the group through that article.

Are you French? Ex-pat? Part of the "slow" movement?

Jim, only by chance have I noticed that the discussion has started earlier than scheduled. I'm going to be a pain and object. (Although I have already commented, just to be inconsistent). I'm assuming there'll be others who are expecting the date to be as originally stated, it's just confusing this way, IMHO.

Chris44 wrote: "Jim, only by chance have I noticed that the discussion has started earlier than scheduled. I'm going to be a pain and object. (Although I have already commented, just to be inconsistent). I'm assum..."

You'll have to bring this up with Traveller, as she was the ringleader for the early discussion...

Anyway, it's a short discussion so you aren't at any disadvantage.

Jim wrote: Thanks for the Atlantic link. Many new members found the group through that article.

Are you French? Ex-pat? Part of the "slow" movement?

I'm English, not sure I'm 'part' of the 'slow' movement but I do appreciate the benefits of slowing down my life in many areas. I know we're here for a short time, but still there's no rush, one must savour and enjoy. N'est-ce pas? ;-)

Roslyn wrote: "Jim wrote: Thanks for the Atlantic link. Many new members found the group through that article.

Are you French? Ex-pat? Part of the "slow" movement?

I'm English, not sure I'm 'part' of the 'slow..."

I'm from the U.S. and have moved to the Perigord region in Southwest France. It's an agricultural area and moves nice and slow, which I'm enjoying after 26 years in San Francisco, which is a hyper-fast, and for me, pointless way to live....