Fantasy Book Club discussion

Post here if you are finished reading. Regarding spoilers - it's best to use the 'spoiler' tags and uncheck the 'add to my update' box before posting.

I've finished, and I loved it. Can't wait for the discussion!

Jennifer wrote: "I've finished, and I loved it. Can't wait for the discussion!"

So, discuss! What are you waiting for?

This is a great book, i thought Katsa was a great female lead character, and Po was a good male lead. The book had a pretty good angle, quite unique and fresh, even though it is not completely original. I found the ending a little weak but it didn't ruin the story or anything.

I read about a year ago, all I can remember is the feeling that the book was too young-adultish it made me feel old and middle aged, I'm not saying young adult books are bad, I have some favorite books that are young adult, but this one had some interesting ideas, those ideas were watered down and lost most of their flavor, if you know what I mean

my favorite part was (view spoiler)[the pass in the snow...I'm sorry, I can't remember the details but there was a point when Katsa and Bitterblue had to travel through a snowy mountain pass..it was a very realistic and emotional description, that of the entire book, this scene is what stuck to my mind (hide spoiler)]

Lindsay wrote: "This is a great book, i thought Katsa was a great female lead character, and Po was a good male lead. The book had a pretty good angle, quite unique and fresh, even though it is not completely orig..."

I liked the book, but I was also a little disappointed in the end.
(view spoiler)[It felt like Katsa's emotional journey was incomplete, as she never really gets over (or even makes much progress against) her irrational fear of marriage and commitment. (hide spoiler)]

Leah wrote: "Matt wrote: "Lindsay wrote: "This is a great book, i thought Katsa was a great female lead character, and Po was a good male lead. The book had a pretty good angle, quite unique and fresh, even tho..."

I Agree with you, i thought Katsa would come around as well, although i am kind of glad she didn't fall in to that "Love is my destiny" rubbish that seems to plague fantasy stories at the moment.

Jasmine wrote: "I read about a year ago, all I can remember is the feeling that the book was too young-adultish it made me feel old and middle aged, I'm not saying young adult books are bad, I have some favorite b..."

I agree. I thought the mountain pass part was really well written. It felt real. It also made me realize that one of my favorite characters of the story is Bitterblue. Even though she is not graced she has as much presence and strength as the any of the other characters.

your discussions reminded me of something that bothered me as well.

when I decided to read it this book I asked my sister who read it before me what did she think about it and all she said was "it's anti-marriage" so of course I payed extra attention to the subject of marriage - so I can prove my sister wrong- but it's true, the book IS against marriage, is this the author's opinion she's trying to reflect? because if she wanted to show us that it's only what Katsa thinks, she would also includes some examples of successful marriages or someone trying to discuss it with Katsa and giving some sound arguments
but what really happens is that Katsa's opinion prevails and was supported and reinforced.

it could be the author's opinion like I said, but to those of us who believe in marriage, I found it offensive

again it was long time since I read it, so I can't supply examples, I'm merely expressing how I felt at the time

Jasmine wrote: "your discussions reminded me of something that bothered me as well.

when I decided to read it this book I asked my sister who read it before me what did she think about it and all she said was "i..."

Given Katsa's real Grace, the implication seems to be that commitment would impede her survival instinct, and that's why she's so flighty. "Oh, you know, one day I may just leave you despite everything we've been through."

"I don't mind. I'll treasure the time we have."

Much as I liked the book, it kind of felt like that's what it was saying. And that part didn't sit well with me.

Leah wrote: "Matt wrote: "Given Katsa's real Grace, the implication seems to be that commitment would impede her survival instinct, and that's why she's so flighty. "Oh, you know, one day I may just leave you d..."

glad I'm not the only one to thinks that

but from what I remember, Katsa was not the only one against marriage, or at least a long lasting relationship- it was a theme throughout the book- and why would her relationship with Po might compromise her life in any way?

Hey, I've just finished the book and I agree that the reasons for Katsa being against marriage aren't that clear. It came across to me that Katsa felt like she'd be owned or controlled in some way by the marriage. Whish doesn't make sense at all if the person she married was Po as he pretty much let her do as she liked :/ maybe the author is just anti marriage then.

Something else which bothered me is how her Uncle Randa had controlled her and she'd hurt people for him. I don't feel like it was explained that well why she did his bidding. Why would you be afraid when you could easily defeat him?

While I found the novel, overall, to be a bit on the simple side, I'd like to jump to its defense here in a few ways.

First, we should keep in mind that this is the first novel in a series. My understanding is that the second novel doesn't follow Katsa at all, but my point is that her growth may not be over yet.

Mercedes raises the point about how Randa controlled Katsa, but I don't think it's that unbelievable. First, you have the milieu: in a medieval society the king is, well, the king. But even more to the point, she's been raised from a young age for service, particularly once her grace revealed itself. But the idea of Randa as King, as ruler, as the ultimate authority, that predates Katsa's own power. As much as we'd like to think otherwise, the patterns that we lay down early in life can be very powerful influences--I've seen an able woman in her 70s revert to incompetence in the presence of her family, simply because that's the expectation that they have of her, and the role that she accepts. It's totally messed up, it's irrational, but there it is. Breaking free of those subconscious conditionings is simultaneously very easy--and nearly impossible.

Going back to the question about marriages. Is the author anti-marriage? We can't judge that simply from Katsa's perspective. She's a character, and even the POV character rarely is just a stand-in for the author. Yes, we do see some very problematic marriages in the novel, but I'm not sure that translates to Cashore being anti-marriage either. My reading of the novel isn't all that fresh, but aren't Po's parents pretty happy together, all in all? Sure, mom's hiding Po's grace from dad, but still, seems like a fairly decent family, all in all. And of course, there's Po himself--as presented, I think all of readers think he'd make a great husband for Katsa. If Cashore wanted to show us that marriage is bad, she'd set us up to get what we as readers want (Po and Katsa married) and then show us how even this great guy ends up being a lousy husband.

But I'm getting pretty speculative, so let me rein it in. I think as much as anything, it's a function of Katsa's character--just who she is (at least, right now). She's got the history with Randa--she doesn't want to be bound, because she's been burnt already. And I think her grace is part of it, too, not necessarily because it would impede her survival instinct, but because my sense of it is that her grace pushes her to constant action, constant motion. The way she always wants to ride at break-neck speed, her eagerness for sparring or battle. She's a restless person. To the extent that marriage pushes one toward settling down, she wants to part of it. Would Po be an understanding husband? Sure! Do I think she has a good reason to not get married? Not really! But that doesn't mean she doesn't. People are like that.

I like the book. And I'm a little surprised the discussion here slipped towards Katsa's plans to marry or not.
Her only fear in the novel is to lose control; that's why she was so terrified of Leck and his lies. He made her lose control. Likewise, marriage always make us lose control, at least to a degree. In a successful marriage, one or both partners always have to compromise. Otherwise, marriage doesn't work. If Katsa doesn't accept compromise, she is right to reject marriage. And her love for Po is very strong, no doubt about it. Her love even pierced Leck's lies and made Katsa act in the only way to ensure her beloved Po's safety.
I think in the context of the book, she makes the right decision. Cashore also made the right decision when she followed the logic of Katsa's character to the end. Cashore is also a courageous writer to end the novel the way she did. She didn't bend to the popular trend and make Katsa change her mind. I salute such a writer.

John wrote: "While I found the novel, overall, to be a bit on the simple side, I'd like to jump to its defense here in a few ways.

First, we should keep in mind that this is the first novel in a series. My und..."

Good points all around.

I too liked this book.

Another point to consider in regards to Randa's control over Katsa is the fact she is graced period. If you are graced in the Middluns you are sent to court to see if you can be of use to the king. If you are of no use you are sent back to your family. Also the graced are not respected and most often feared, avoided, and shunned by "normal" society. Remember the story Katsa tells about Helda's son who was graced with swimming? He was sent home where the neighbors avoided him. All of these things added up and Katsa - or any person raised in such a climate - would essentially be brain washed into following Randa's orders. Maybe brainwashed isn't quite the correct word but you get my point.

The marriage part seemed a little odd but when I thought back on it more I didn't recall Po asking. He tells her how he loves her around time Katsa realizes she has feelings for him. She then freaks out about it. Eventually they learn to love and be together without marrying at least for the moment. Mostly I think the whole was presented a little oddly and I'm not sure if it's the author's opinion coming out or just the way she framed the story knowing it's going to come into play latter in the series.

I liked this book. Had a difficult time deciding between 3 and 4 stars. What did I like about it?

1) Suspense—One of the ways I judge how much I like a book is by how anxious I am to keep reading the book. The more anxious I am, the more I like the book. From the very beginning, all the way through to end, I consistently was on the edge about what was going to happen next.

2) Graces—interesting…more interesting than I thought at first.

3) Adventure—lots of activity in this book. It moves very quickly. Fights, rescues, quests, intrigue.

4) Description—the words in this book really gave me a detailed and beautiful visual image of the seven kingdoms—the castles, the woods, the mountains.

5) Romance—sweet story. Gotta love Po. What was my favorite part of this romance? The lack of marriage at the end! I am happily married with two children, but marriage is a legal agreement. Love does not need to equal marriage. It is an agreement that you will combine all your resources and base your lives together. Today, Americans mostly choose to enter into this agreement because they are in love. However, for most of history, as well as in other parts of the world, love was and is not a part of the equation. I have worked with people in the Chicago suburbs in arranged marriages. Arranged from back home in another country, but they live in the U.S. There is nothing wrong with Katsa choosing NOT to marry! Marriage can be wonderful in a story, or it can be a generic story closure ("they lived happily ever after"). Katsa has been denied freedom, particularly freedom of choice. She was denied this choice due to her grace, her lack of parents and overall good guidance, as well as the greed of kings. I agree with Olga. Katsa's choice—current choice—not to marry fits her character.

On the other hand, these are of some of the things I do not like so much about this book:

1) The names. Silly I know, but the name Po just makes me think of Kung-Fu Panda. Katsa makes me think of ketchup. Bitterblue? Just not thrilled with the names.

2) King Leck’s Grace. I realize it is the most plot-important grace in the book, but it is the one I had difficulty with. It doesn’t fit the pattern of the rest of the graces. His grace somehow changes everyone else’s minds. Most of the graces seem to give the owner enhanced abilities. In his case, he is somehow able to go into others’ minds. Don’t buy it quite as much.

3) The romance. I loved the romance, but it seemed to peak a little early. The tension between them was over early on, though there was an attempt at revision of the tension at the end. It isn’t a huge complaint, but it seems the first half of the book is driven by the romance, the second by the quest. I found myself wanting more of the romance in the 2nd half of the book. Maybe this is why people think it needed to have a marriage at the end.

I’m unsure if I will read more of the series. I did become much interested in Bitterblue, and I know the newest book is about her, so I am interested. But I would like to see Po and Katsa at least in the same kingdom, and I sense there is more adventure there, so I’m not sure if I am patient enough to wait through other stories to get back to Katsa, or not.

King Lecks Grace is further explained in Fire

John I see you point about the way society viewed the king's authority - I hadn't really considered that. Roc your point also makes sense. I hadn't really considered either of those ideas. I guess the two together would be enough to put Katsa under Randa's control.

I agree with Olga that I respected the author for not making them get married at the end as it would have gone against the rest of the book. My only issue with it was that it wasnt greatly explained as to why Katsa didnt want to get married. But maybe that was only a display of her confusion rather than the authors.

Michele I hadnt even thought about the romance peaking too early but now you mention it I agree. Its always nice to be left wondering a little longer!

I am typing on the iPad, so for now I will just say I finished it. It had good points and bad points. I, too, felt it a bit simple, overall. However, I am currently reading book two. I have a mental disorder where once I start a series I have to finish it. :)

Jennifer wrote: "I am typing on the iPad, so for now I will just say I finished it. It had good points and bad points. I, too, felt it a bit simple, overall. However, I am currently reading book two. I have a menta..."

LOL

Jennifer wrote: "I am typing on the iPad, so for now I will just say I finished it. It had good points and bad points. I, too, felt it a bit simple, overall. However, I am currently reading book two. I have a menta..."

I have the same problem!!! even if i don't like the first book at all, i HAVE to know what happens! it is a real problem. I am trying to get it classified as a medical condition! hahaha

Lindsay wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I am typing on the iPad, so for now I will just say I finished it. It had good points and bad points. I, too, felt it a bit simple, overall. However, I am currently reading book tw..."

LOL, my sisters suffer from it two, you should've seen me begging my sister to stop reading a series that was making her miserable, bud she insisted that she needed to know what happens next ... I'm glad I'm don't have this condition :)

I just finished this book. I enjoyed the read, although it was clearly YA. I liked the characters and the idea of the Gracelings. Katsa and Po were fun characters, although the author shows a poor choice of names. It was a very smooth and enjoyable read but I thought the ending was weak, contrived and disappointing. I would rate this book as a 3.5 if I could but I decided to round upwards to 4.

I finished the book a few days ago. Overall it was a good read. I was able to finish it quickly, which is probably due to the fact that it's YA. Nevertheless it was a nice story.
There were a few things that bothered me though.
I too thought that some of the names were just weird. Po makes me think of a chamber pot, and Bitterblue is just silly.

However, what started to annoy me even more the more I read, was that it is repeated over and over again that Katsa is such a good fighter. I was like, "I get it, she's a good fighter, you don't need to keep telling me that in almost every conversation or fight that she's in."

And maybe this is just me being picky, but I found it a bit weird that only Katsa and Po (and Leck of course) seemed to have a very elaborate Grace. The others were simply Graced with swimming or fighting etc.. Compared to that, Katsa and Po's Graces seemed a little bit too much. Apart from Leck and his over powered Grace, they never really met any real resistance, which is a bit of a shame. In my opinion that should have been balanced more.

Greening Grademalion

Lindsay wrote: "Jennifer wrote: "I am typing on the iPad, so for now I will just say I finished it. It had good points and bad points. I, too, felt it a bit simple, overall. However, I am currently reading book tw..."



I once read seven books in an absolutely *horrible* series, and it's still a struggle to not pick up the rest! What should we call this affliction? Sequelitis?

I enjoyed it although it wasn't earth-shattering or anything. For a first book in particular I thought it was pretty good. With the Graces, I would guess that Katsa and Po's more complex Graces are a rarity although mind reading Graces were mentioned multiple times. I didn't really find it odd that Katsa and Po were so gifted. That tends to be what happens in fantasy. The protagonist is special is some sort of way that makes them stand out from everyone else. That said, I found Katsa's Grace a little hard to swallow just because it seemed to encompass everything.

Amanda wrote: "I enjoyed it although it wasn't earth-shattering or anything. For a first book in particular I thought it was pretty good. With the Graces, I would guess that Katsa and Po's more complex Graces a..."

I really liked this book, but I do have to agree with you. Katsa's "real" grace seemed a bit far fetched. I ended up just thinking of her as having a fighting grace rather than a surviving grace. I guess I could have believed her grace a bit more if it was more fully explained. It almost seemed like her the explanation for her grace was an afterthought, but I don't think it really worked. She can survive... ok... but what does that mean?

Sadie wrote: "Amanda wrote: "I enjoyed it although it wasn't earth-shattering or anything. For a first book in particular I thought it was pretty good. With the Graces, I would guess that Katsa and Po's more c..."

I know what you mean. Toward the end of the book she was Super Katsa, which got a little old. Although i did like what Po's Grace turned into. How cool!

*randomly jumps into conversation*

I actually really liked this book, but I agree with y'all about the Survival Grace vs. the fighting grace. If it was actually JUST survival, wouldn't she get beat up but "survive" through the blood and bruises? I dunno. Maybe it's just me.

I was pleasantly suprised by this book. I was expecting smushy but i got a good balance of love, action and drama. The characters are likeable, the world easy to believe and picture. As it is a YA book i found it a quick easy read which i enjoyed because you don't have to wait 100s of pages to find out what happens when left on a cliff hanger. Its great as an inbetween for epic reads but that doesn't mean its not as good-this is my review of the book. Its good to read something where the character was against marriage and babies.

Whew, done and what a quick read. Like others, I was pleasantly surprised by it, and enjoyed the change in characterizations. One of the things that struck me when reading this book is how much less interested in the story I would have been if Katsa had been a male super-fighter, and Po had been the sensitive/emotive powers. One of the more interesting things with this book was the basic reversal of traditional gender roles, but in a way that seemed believable.

Unlike others, I had little trouble believing Katsa and her anti-marriage stance; it wasn't deeply discussed, but it was clear she had anger management/ control issues, and in the beginning, seemed quite emotionally young, so a declarative, "I'll never get married" seemed contextually appropriate in terms of control (although given that not a lot went into cultural descriptions, I'm not sure of what relationships she is basing her opinion on).
Loved Michele's analysis and have to agree that the relationship arc did peak, but in that way, we got a chance to explore the "no marriage" issue a bit rather than the "get married and everything will be perfect" trope-filled ending.

I had already read it last year, but I really enjoyed it. I actually enjoyed the second in the series better, but I liked the story and I enjoyed the change of style/characters then what you would normally see in this genre.

I listened to the audio and found it to be an excellent work of fantasy. If Katsa was a man, it would not matter that she did not want to keep the home fires burning for a hubby. She is a warrior first and foremost. Po gives her room to be what she is. I am looking forward to reading book 3 because it returns to the seven kingdoms. That second book was strange...

I finished today and really enjoyed it. I don't see why Katsa would want to marry. She is only about 17/18, her own life has evolved around following her evil uncle's orders. Wouldn't anyone want some freedom if they had only just won it?

The names did initially bug me (I pictured a tellytubby) but that wore off. I too, would like to hear more about Leck and his cages. But due to my sequelitous, I guess I will!

The imagery was lovely, particularly the castles on mountains and the mountain pass.

I was plesaed that her love for Po enabled Katsa to overcome Leck's mind control too.

First, since this discussion has had plenty of thoughts of marriage, I'd like to say I found it refreshing that Katsa and Po didn't end up "happily ever after". Why should the characters marry and have kids in every book? It doesn't go like that in real life, so I join those applauding to the author for that decision.

Second, I found it a bit simplistic in story telling and language but that can be the YA. I'm just accustomed to reading more complex fantasies with more descriptions of society and stuff. I read the Finnish translation and I thought the translator had come up with some good old Finnish words for the translation.

I guess I'll pick up the rest of the series at some point, but I am not desperate for them. I think this book had a good closure. I like not having cliffhanger endings (GRR Martin I'm looking at you).

Aren't we all looking at him!

I finished this last night (just making it in the last few hours of April), and thought it was just OK. I enjoyed the characters quite a bit, but given the exceedingly high level of praise this book had attracted, I think I was just expecting a bit more. I know it's YA, but even within that context, it seemed a bit predictable and simplistic.

Like those above, the whole marriage thing rubbed me the wrong way too. The book seemed to be setting the argument that Katsa was escaping from being controlled by others, and that therefore she had to reject the possibility of marriage since that would also be allowing others to control her. As a happily married guy (hi hon!), I don't think I see marriage that way.

On the other hand, as Helen says above, Katsa is very young here. Maybe we're supposed to see this as a teenager's view of marriage? Or maybe we just shouldn't bother analyzing this so deeply in a rather simplistic YA story.

In any case, I guess I could see myself reading the sequels. But I don't think I'll be running out to chase them down any time soon. I think I've got The Blade Itself up next in my pile.

So i finally finished this book....a little late but you know life gets busy. I really enjoyed the premise of the book and the overall plot but maybe the ending not so much.....too drawn out i think.

I had issues with repetitions in the book. There were several times where the same info was repeated and got annoying. Im also not a big fan of the romancy stuff....but thats a personal prefrence.

I see the topic of marriage was discussed. I actually enjoyed the fact that Katsa does not want to marry....and Im happily married. With her grace I dont think it would be responsible of her to do so. Also it teaches the YA crowd that marriage is a big responsibilty that shouldnt really be taken like the regular fairytale marriage ending.

I have just finished reading today a little late. I agree with the comments about the author being anti marriage and I am sure that they could have supported each other.

I did however enjoy the story and it was an easy read. I don't know if I will buy the next in the series, maybe I will see if I can borrow it form the library.

I'm most of the way through Fire now, enjoying it a lot. Leck is more than a bit creepy.

@ Helen. I enjoyed Fire the most. It was awesome! Not that Graceling wasn't cool; it's just that people seem to either love Fire or love Graceling.
It's rare if they love both!

I did like Graceling but agree that Fire is better. I'm going into Bitterblue today.