The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

The ninth week's reading assignment is:

Week Nine: April 2nd - April 8th (2012):
Book the Third, II, III, IV, V, VI(pages 256 - 283)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other books.

This book was kicked off on February 6th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Powell's and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. And to make things even easier; this book is available "free" on line as either an ebook download or an audiobook. This weekly thread will be opened up either during the weekend before or on Monday of the first day.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Becky will be leading this discussion. But since this is Becky's first time moderating a book in the History Book Club; Bentley will be co-moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Bentley & Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Charles Dickens

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however. For citations, add always the book cover, the author's photo when available and always the author's link. If mentioning simply other author's, please cite the author's photo and the author's link.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

by Charles Dickens

Week Nine - April 2 - April 8
(pages 256 - 283)

Chapter II - The Grindstone
Tellson's Paris house is the former house of a Monseigneur. Lorry's problem is finding the assets and their owners. He is staying at a nearby hotel which is found by Lucie and her father. Lucie explains they are looking for Charles. Lorry hides her and shows the Doctor the grindstone where knives are sharpened for use on the prisoners. Lorry tells Manette to go to the prison and see what he can do. Manette goes, is recognized and is given help by the people in the courtyard. Lorry waits while the others sleep.

Chapter III - The Shadow
The Doctor does not return. Lucie and the others including Jerry are moved to a different apartment. Defarge comes with a note from Doctor Manette who says Darnay is safe but the Doctor can't safely leave yet. The two go to Lucie who is with Madame Defarge and the Vengeance, both knitting. Lucie reads the letter. Madame says she has seen the daughter so they can go. Lucie pleads for her husband, but Madame Defarge coldly rebuffs her. Lorry is worried.

Chapter IV Calm in Storm
Doctor Manette returns after 4 days. Darnay is safe in the prison but he won't be released. The Doctor is strengthened by this experience and wants to help Lucie. Charles cannot get a trial and the Doctor continues to try to help by going out and to the prison. .

Chapter V The Wood-Sawyer
Even in all the crises Lucie continues to be devoted to her homemaking duties as wife, mother and daughter. The Doctor tells her of a window in the prison where she can see Charles from the street and she goes daily. The wood-sawyer harasses her but she bribes him. In December a large group of people came dancing wildly down the street, encircle and frighten her badly. Her father appears comforts her and Madame Defarge greets them as she walks by. The Doctor tells Lucie that Charles is due in court the next day and goes to see Mr. Lorry.

Chapter VI - Triumph
The court is in session. The charges against Evermonde/Darnay are that he is an emigrant. The penalty is death. Charles protests and presents his evidence and witnesses, Gabelle and Doctor Manette. Charles is acquitted by popular acclaim and carried home in a lifted chair decked out in red. Lucy tearfully thanks her father.

"The grindstone had a double handle, and, turning at it madly were two men, whose faces, as their long hair flapped back when the whirlings of the grindstone brought their faces up, were more horrible and cruel than the visages of the wildest savages in their most barbarous disguise. False eyebrows and false moustaches were stuck upon them, and their hideous countenances were all bloody and sweaty, and all awry with howling, and all staring and glaring with beastly excitement and want of sleep.

Dickens is using an historical incident in a really comic way. The Princesse de Lamballe was murdered and it was rumored that her pubic hair was used in mustaches on the revolutionaries (the sans-culottes). This was part of the September massacres. There were many rumors about the way the Princess died - her body was never found. The blade sharpening in his scene is as close to the actual and gruesome bloody fighting as Dickens gets but even so it's about as dark as you can get -

In Chapter 2, did you think that the way Lorry and the Darnay family (minus Charles) ended up in Paris was a bit contrived?

"My dear," said Mr. Lorry, striking in to explain; "there are frequent risings in the streets; and, although it is not likely they will ever trouble you, Madame Defarge wishes to see those whom she has the power to protect at such times, to the end that she may know them—that she may identify them. I believe," said Mr. Lorry, rather halting in his reassuring words, as the stony manner of all the three impressed itself upon him more and more, "I state the case, Citizen Defarge?"
Defarge looked gloomily at his wife, and gave no other answer than a gruff sound of acquiescence.

How do you feel about Monsieur Defarge at this point?

Becky wrote: "In Chapter 2, did you think that the way Lorry and the Darnay family (minus Charles) ended up in Paris was a bit contrived?"

Absolutely. I wouldn't have been surprised if Dr. Manette had gone by himself, and I probably wouldn't have been surprised if Lucie had gone if she had been a stronger character. But she arrives in Paris and then immediately seems to fall apart. I was also appalled that they would take little Lucie with them. I realize that in England, they perhaps didn't know the full gravity of the situation in France, but they must have had some idea.

Yup - you said it well - I bought into it for the sake of the fiction, "suspension of disbelief" and all that, but at the same time I thought it a bit unlikely considering the danger.

Monsieur Defarge is showing himself to be a rather weak character at this point - he's cowing to his wife's demands and at the same time trying to help the Doctor. Does anyone have any other insights into him? Like possibly does he represent those folks in France who believed the Terror had gone too far but were powerless to stop it?

I love the emergence of the strength in Dr. Manette. Whenever anyone faces a tragedy or has to journey through misfortune, as humans, we always look for a purpose to our suffering. I think Dr. Manette has found his purpose and is empowered by it.

Monsieur Defarge seems totally unrecognisable at this point in the novel compared to earlier, and his wife is considerably more intimidating!

I think the hatred in some folks must actually feed on itself. I think what we see in Madame Defarge is what kept the Terror going and Defarge was afraid of his own wife. If he didn't go along maybe she'd have to turn him in?

Becky wrote: "I think the hatred in some folks must actually feed on itself. I think what we see in Madame Defarge is what kept the Terror going and Defarge was afraid of his own wife. If he didn't go along ma..."

My impression of Defarge is that he is in awe of his wife. When we initially met them his awe seemed born of admiration but now I sense the awe is tinged with fear of her. I think Ruthbie's word "intimidating" accurately describes Madame.

Yup - intimidated is a very good word!

This is the prison in which Darnay would have been held - LaForce Prison - Paris.



We can kind of visualize a window for Lucie to watch.

Tour guides still point out the site of La Force. Chronologically, Dickens has Darnay in La Force as of late August, 1792, which puts him right at the center of the horrendous “September massacres," September 2-6.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Septembe...
(A Tale of Two Cities is listed as "Further reading.")

From Chapter 4 -
But, though the Doctor tried hard, and never ceased trying, to get Charles Darnay set at liberty, or at least to get him brought to trial, the public current of the time set too strong and fast for him. The new era began; the king was tried, doomed, and beheaded; the Republic of Liberty, Equality, Fraternity, or Death, declared for victory or death against the world in arms; the black flag waved night and day from the great towers of Notre Dame; three hundred thousand men, summoned to rise against the tyrants of the earth, rose from all the varying soils of France, as if the dragon's teeth had been sown broadcast, and had yielded fruit equally on hill and plain, on rock, in gravel, and alluvial mud, under the bright sky of the South and under the clouds of the North, in fell and forest, in the vineyards and the olive-grounds and among the cropped grass and the stubble of the corn, along the fruitful banks of the broad rivers, and in the sand of the sea-shore. What private solicitude could rear itself against the deluge of the Year One of Liberty—the deluge rising from below, not falling from above, and with the windows of Heaven shut, not opened!

That's a chunk of history there in that paragraph of almost purple prose Are you enjoying the historical insights or do you dismiss them? Do you skim that background or does it pop out at you like a main point? Do you like that style of writing or is it hard to read - (or both)?

The historical views are most interesting here - that one could be as reverred as the Doctor I believe - that he could shepard Darnay through I believe too as he is the character that he is. - That he made such a fast and strong recovery I would normally doubt - incluind that he would have the strenght and endurance for both his medical mission and his diplomatic/defense mission for Darnay - but I guess that Nelson Mandella didn't get too much fitness maintenance during his years in prison before he took over the leadership of his party in South Africa but he never had, I think, any period of despondance.

That being said the 15 months and the illustrations and explanations of what was happening was illuminating.

I too wonder why Lucie came with the child and Miss Pross why it was allowed.

I wonder why Tellson's send a man of Mr. Lorry's age but maybe that was for his French language skills and experience.

DeFarge is a disappointing man seeing his initial history with Dr. Manette and those of us who point out that he seems to have switched positions and now Madam DeFarge is the stronger - but I think that was always the case - only now maybe he wants to support the Dr. & Darnay but his wife has another adgenda?? - I guess we shall see

As I read the book I was astounded by the historical aspect of A Tale of Two Cities.

I think Doctor Manette thought perhaps he could help Darnay but Lucie couldn't let him go alone. Then if they went who would stay home with the baby? They all went. This was not against the law - leaving France was more dangerous than getting in. They were going with no wrongful intentions.

I can only think that Madame Defarge is so obsessed and driven that she overwhelms her husband's inclinations on the matters.

Becky wrote: "As I read the book I was astounded by the historical aspect of A Tale of Two Cities.

I think Doctor Manette thought perhaps he could help Darnay but Lucie couldn't let him go alone. Then if t..."

You are likely correct that Lucie could/would not let her father come alone considering the way he had lived his life thus far in England.