The History Book Club discussion

Hello Everyone,

The tenth week's reading assignment is:

Week Ten: April 9th - April 15th (2012):
Book the Third, VII, VIII, IX(pages 284 - 312)

We will open up a thread for each week's reading. Please make sure to post in the particular thread dedicated to those specific chapters and page numbers to avoid spoilers. We will also open up supplemental threads as we did for other books.

This book was kicked off on February 6th. We look forward to your participation. Amazon, Barnes and Noble, Powell's and other noted on line booksellers do have copies of the book and shipment can be expedited. The book can also be obtained easily at your local library, or on your Kindle. And to make things even easier; this book is available "free" on line as either an ebook download or an audiobook. This weekly thread will be opened up either during the weekend before or on Monday of the first day.

There is no rush and we are thrilled to have you join us. It is never too late to get started and/or to post.

Becky will be leading this discussion. But since this is Becky's first time moderating a book in the History Book Club; Bentley will be co-moderating this selection.

Welcome,

~Bentley & Bryan

TO ALWAYS SEE ALL WEEKS' THREADS SELECT VIEW ALL

by Charles Dickens

REMEMBER NO SPOILERS ON THE WEEKLY NON SPOILER THREADS

Notes:

It is always a tremendous help when you quote specifically from the book itself and reference the chapter and page numbers when responding. The text itself helps folks know what you are referencing and makes things clear.

Citations

If an author or book is mentioned other than the book and author being discussed, citations must be included according to our guidelines. Also, when citing other sources, please provide credit where credit is due and/or the link. There is no need to re-cite the author and the book we are discussing however. For citations, add always the book cover, the author's photo when available and always the author's link. If mentioning simply other author's, please cite the author's photo and the author's link.

If you need help - here is a thread called the Mechanics of the Board which will show you how:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/2...

Glossary

Remember there is a glossary thread where ancillary information is placed by the moderator. This is also a thread where additional information can be placed by the group members regarding the subject matter being discussed.

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/7...

Bibliography

There is a Bibliography where books cited in the text are posted with proper citations and reviews. We also post the books that the author may have used in his research or in his notes. Please also feel free to add to the Bibliography thread any related books, etc with proper citations or other books either non fiction or historical fiction that relate to the subject matter of the book itself. No self promotion, please.

by Charles Dickens

Chapter Overviews and Summaries

Week Ten - April 9 - April 15
(pages 284 - 312)


7. A Knock at the Door
Life is hard but Doctor thinks he's saved his son-in-law and Mr. Lorry has put Jerry at their service to do errands with Miss Pross. It's now the law that the names of the occupants have to be on every door so "Evremond called Darnay" has to go on theirs. They can't leave Paris yet. Pross and Cruncher leave for errands. There is a "knock on the door" and four men with weapons enter looking for Evremonde. He is to back to the Conciergerie - he'll be told the charges tomorrow. Yes, they know the doctor but the charges are from St. Antoine. The Citizen and Citezeness Defarge have accused him along with one other.

8. A Hand at Cards
While Pross and Cruncher are shopping they come across Miss Pross' brother, Solomon, who knew she was in Paris. He rebuffs her but Cruncher asks questions about his name, remembering him from England. Just then Sydney Carton speaks up with the name Barsad and proceeds to call Barsad a spy of the prisons. The three men go to Lorry's office.

Lorry is surprised to see Barsad walk in and Carton brings Lorry up to date on Darnay's situation. Carton is worried that Manette's influence won't be enough for the trial. Carton confronts Barsad and mentions Roger Cly as a fellow spy. Then Cruncher contradicts Barstad saying there was no body in the coffin so Barsad gives in and helps Carton.


9. The Game Made
Carton and Barsad talk privately and Lorry confronts Cruncher with his "unlawful occupation." Carton explains the medical and monetary aspects and tries to make a deal about jobs. Lorry seems to agree. Barsad leaves and Carton tells Lorry that if Darnay is convicted Carton will see Darnay once more. They agree not to tell Lucy. Lorry is ready to go back to England.

Carton goes to a chemist's shop and gets two packets. He walks the town all night and appears at court the next morning to see Lucy, Dr. Manette and Mr. Lorry.

At court Evremond is charged. The witnesses against him are the Defarges and Doctor Manette. The Doctor protests. Monsieur Defarge takes the stand and reveals everything up to the note he found in Manette's cell the day of the fall of the Bastille.

Thanks Bryan.

I am loving Miss Pross right now, she's fantastic!

From Chapter 7:
"... a blow was struck upon the door.
'Oh father, father. What can this be! Hide Charles. Save him!'
'My child,' said the Doctor, rising, and laying his hand upon her shoulder, 'I have saved him. What weakness is this, my dear! Let me go to the door.' "



If you have some original graphics in your book this is what is there for Chapter 7. I think Phiz adds to the melodrama of this whole scene. Is it a bit over-the-top for today's standards or do we still get the same emotional pitch in books today?

Ruthbie wrote: "I am loving Miss Pross right now, she's fantastic!"

Oh Miss Pross is just great here and suddenly really seeing her in this light, in these scenes, her whole character from the beginning comes alive - it's totally consistent but it's just never been quite as brightly lit.

Bentley wrote: "Thanks Bryan."


Indeed! Thank you!

Bentley wrote: "Thanks Bryan."

Welcome, Bentley, glad to help out.

Back to the idea of light and dark, or "good" vs "bad" characters, where does Miss Pross fit at this point? Is this a change in your thinking about her or have you been of that opinion since we were introduced to her back when Mr. Lorry paid his first visit?

How about Cruncher? Lorry - has he changed at all? The text says he has but is it real, and how deep this change?

Becky wrote: "Back to the idea of light and dark, or "good" vs "bad" characters, where does Miss Pross fit at this point? Is this a change in your thinking about her or have you been of that opinion since we w..."

I believe that the darker characters actually give the text greater socio-political complexity. Mme. Defarge, for example, to whom Miss Pross is the foil, obviously symbolizes the violent revolution. The fact that she is female and fetishized is, I think, important to modernity and the developing liberal state where sexual identity is key.

This isn't far removed from Mr. Cruncher's darker activities. He is the resurrection-man: stealing corpses from graveyards and selling them to further scientific education. These corpses—amputated and dismembered—enter the socio-political rhetoric of modern culture as education and commerce.

Jayme wrote: "The fact that she is female and fetishized is, I think, important to modernity and the developing liberal state where sexual identity is key."

That's a very interesting comment, Jayme, with many aspects to it. I'm curious about the sentence I quoted. I know the French women were very active participants in the Revolution, even calling for women's suffrage at that point, but how is sexual identity the key in a developing liberal state and how does that relate to Mme Defarge?

I think Cruncher is so much darker now than I would've imagined him to be when first meeting him. The strength in Miss Pross's character which was hinted at before is really to the fore at this point, and I have to say there's so much more to her than I would have previously given her credit for.

Yup, in these later chapters some of the characters change, at least in the minds of the readers - they may have had these aspects to their personalities all along - Dickens just doesn't reveal everything at once.

Another thing Dickens does is show us how the characters are through their own words and behavior. Dickens doesn't just tell us from the narrator's pov although there is some of that.

Pross is seen as totally devoted to family, but it's to the point of being a defect in the case of her brother.

Chapter 8:
"The gracious and merciful Heavens forbid!" cried Miss Pross. "Far rather would I never see you again, dear Solomon, though I have ever loved you truly, and ever shall. Say but one affectionate word to me, and tell me there is nothing angry or estranged between us, and I will detain you no longer."

Good Miss Pross! As if the estrangement between them had come of any culpability of hers. As if Mr. Lorry had not known it for a fact, years ago, in the quiet corner in Soho, that this precious brother had spent her money and left her!

Chapter 9:
And it would seem that Cruncher is worse than we thought, as you said, when the details are known, but he is willing to change his ways if his son can keep the Tellson job.

"... wot I would humbly offer to you, sir, would be this. Upon that there stool, at that there Bar, sets that there boy of mine, brought up and growed up to be a man, wot will errand you, message you, general-light-job you, till your heels is where your head is, if such should be your wishes. If it wos so, which I still don't say it is (for I will not prewaricate to you, sir), let that there boy keep his father's place, and take care of his mother; don't blow upon that boy's father—do not do it, sir—and let that father go into the line of the reg'lar diggin', and make amends for what he would have undug—if it wos so-by diggin' of 'em in with a will, and with conwictions respectin' the futur' keepin' of 'em safe."

Meanwhile, under all this stress, Mr. Lorry is also revealed as being far more emotional and sympathetic than we (the readers) first believed. Lorry, the old bachelor "businessman" is now at the point of tears for the fates of Lucie and Charles - his family for all intents and purposes.

Mr. Lorry's eyes gradually sought the fire; his sympathy with his darling, and the heavy disappointment of his second arrest, gradually weakened them; he was an old man now, overborne with anxiety of late, and his tears fell.

How about other characters so far? Do the Defarges seem to have changed through Chapter 9? How about Carton - he does seem to be up to something but ... PLEASE, NO SPOILERS! we are only up to Book 3, Chapter 9 there are 6 more chapters to go.)

Becky wrote: "That's a very interesting comment, Jayme, with many aspects to it. I'm curious about the sentence I quoted. I know the French women were very active participants in the Revolution, even calling for women's suffrage at that point, but how is sexual identity the key in a developing liberal state and how does that relate to Mme Defarge?"

Well, Becky, it is to this particular eighteenth century moment that rights theory and secular law--so important to the modern liberal state--are often traced. In this context, sexuality is threatening and it therefore becomes the subject of legislation making the female a hyperbolic citizen. Mme. Defarge embodies this paradox.

Yes I will agree that in these chapters Ms. Pross and Jerry take on more character and form

Ms. Pross is now tougher illustrated - not just a housekeeper- helper

Jerry is a bit more avaristic but I wonder what has happened to his resurrection-man business (is his son at all involved while Jerry is in France all these many months) and if his son gets his job is it Jerry's intention to go back to being a resurrection-man. Am I too untrusting?

And why is DeFarge - Monsieur et Madame - all of a sudden becoming visible active opponents of Darnay?

More shall be revealed?