Paradise Lost
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The Hitler button
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No i would not. i don't have the right.
No i think it would just be a crap place to be not necessarily maximum torture.
HELL NO! Equality always. I don't believe that people should be judged on their sexuality or belief system. They should be judged on the way they act as a person and the way they treat other people. I think if God was what everyone says he/she is, athiests and homosexuals would not be sent to hell simply for existing.
No i think it would just be a crap place to be not necessarily maximum torture.
HELL NO! Equality always. I don't believe that people should be judged on their sexuality or belief system. They should be judged on the way they act as a person and the way they treat other people. I think if God was what everyone says he/she is, athiests and homosexuals would not be sent to hell simply for existing.
(Shhhh.. I'm gonna tell you a secret) Atheists get Kudos in heaven, for behaving better than many believers towards their fellow humans, without the whole reward/punishment system being in place.I would not press the button. It would be unfair when you come to think of it. Not even if I had the option to strap everyone involved in the holocaust from the local population who turned a blind eye, to the soldiers, the doctors, the scientists, the guys who loaded cyclone B into the chambers, the guy who pushed the button, the one who gave the order...
When you read about how insidious the effects of situational pressures are (including authority, please read the SPE and the Milgram study if you haven't already), you inevitably come to the conclusion that you would be burning a whole lot of innocent, albeit ignorant/misguided people.
As for your view of hell, well, haven't you been reading Paradise Lost? It's a fun place where demons do what they want, have castles made of gold and precious stones, and indulge their malicious tendencies. Kinda like prison, where criminals go to learn new tricks.
Don't worry about, we'll be fine ;)
Hmmm. No. Nope, wouldn't happen. I, too, am an atheist, and my conscience won't allow me to cause pain or harm to another, especially since I think it's wrong for anyone to cause pain to another. I'm not a hypocrite, up on my own level above my expectations of others. Then again, I also think it's wrong for cops to speed (unless their lights/sirens are on). And for politicians to give themselves raises. And for ignorance to be deified like it is in the city I live in. I could go on.The problem with morality is it's too subjective. I have my morals, Joe Bob has his morals, and so on. Only, it seems to me that atheists are among the few people who subscribe to an internal moral/ethical code and actually adhere to it. Religious folks seem to claim an external moral code (thus seemingly obviating the need for an internal one they choose and reason out for themselves), then constantly look for loopholes or excuses. Is it really that hard to do the right thing, regardless of what others have done/are doing? It upsets me that Hitler did what he did, but I couldn't justify my actions of causing him pain simply because he caused so many others pain (understatement of the year, I'm sure). I'd still be doing what I want other people not to do. I can't/won't break my own ethical code.
As far as hell goes, its depiction has changed over the years. Before Dante, hell was simply the absence of God for all eternity, which supposedly would be a kind of torture for the soul. Dante essentially introduced to the public the fire-and-brimstone ideas that are so commonly associated with hell nowadays. I doubt hell exists, but if it does, I imagine it'd be more like Sartre's No Exit, where "Hell is other people" instead of the demon-ridden,flame-scorched, happy-pitchfork-place Dante and Milton present.
No, I would not press the button. By choosing to press the button is to assume that I was the ultimate judge and possessed absolute power - that kind of power is dangerous.
Christopher wrote: "Suppose there is an afterlife and in this afterlife Hitler has been strapped to a device that will set him on fire for all of eternity. All that is needed to start this torture is the press of a bu..."
Gee, this must be a "burning" question for you, Christopher! I've encountered this topic of yours twice already when it was added as a discussion concerning other books.
Frankly - not trying to be rude, this is just a question - I wonder why you care to ask about Hell and all that. It’s kind of like a Christian asking a Hindu what they think they will be when they are reincarnated. It makes no sense. If you believe in Hell, you must have already figured you’re not going there, (I’m assuming that about you, but I never met anyone who truly believed in Hell and couldn’t wait to be there - those who truly believe in Hell are dying to avoid it, (pun intended) or believe they just won’t be sent there, for one reason or another.) And if you don’t believe in Hell, why bother asking about it? Although, you have never actually said if you do or do not believe eternal punishment; what is your stance concerning it?
No, I would never, ever Push the Button. Why? It is not a human's place to judge mankind. (Speaking of eternal judgment here, I do believe in having a court of law.) What hubris a person would need to assume the place of God! Trying to take the place of God is despicable, it would make a person as vile the person they presume to judge.
Bottom line: only those who have the power to save a soul have the power to judge a soul.
Gee, this must be a "burning" question for you, Christopher! I've encountered this topic of yours twice already when it was added as a discussion concerning other books.
Frankly - not trying to be rude, this is just a question - I wonder why you care to ask about Hell and all that. It’s kind of like a Christian asking a Hindu what they think they will be when they are reincarnated. It makes no sense. If you believe in Hell, you must have already figured you’re not going there, (I’m assuming that about you, but I never met anyone who truly believed in Hell and couldn’t wait to be there - those who truly believe in Hell are dying to avoid it, (pun intended) or believe they just won’t be sent there, for one reason or another.) And if you don’t believe in Hell, why bother asking about it? Although, you have never actually said if you do or do not believe eternal punishment; what is your stance concerning it?
No, I would never, ever Push the Button. Why? It is not a human's place to judge mankind. (Speaking of eternal judgment here, I do believe in having a court of law.) What hubris a person would need to assume the place of God! Trying to take the place of God is despicable, it would make a person as vile the person they presume to judge.
Bottom line: only those who have the power to save a soul have the power to judge a soul.
The nature of the original post has me question whether Christopher has in fact read Dante's Inferno. If he had, he would know the answer and it would be as Verity states.
Verity,I posted the question in several threads that I thought might catch the eye of some christians. I wanted to know how many really believed I deserved to burn forever. This was over a year ago and I have probably received around 75 or so responses. Only a few said that they personally would press the button.
For the rest I generally received two types of responses. The nicer of the the two was simply that there is no "hell fire", so I have nothing to worry about. The second type of response was a bit more intimidating. I was told by many that it is indeed possible that I will suffer eternal torment, but that god would "justly" make that judgement and no one else. Your answer seems to be similar to this in that you say god and only god has the right to judge me, though whether this judgement you envision consists of "hell fire" I don't know.
It seems people feel they may escape their moral accountability by saying "god will judge, and I have nothing to do with it". Any god who would pronounce a judgement of eternal torture is evil. Any person who would surrender their moral decisions to such a god is deeply misguided. In any case it is impossible to escape one's moral accountability. Regardless of who pronounces the judgement either you believe it is okay for anyone to be tortured forever or you do not. I am genuinely glad that you would not press the button, but you leave open the possibility that god would press the button, and I am left to wonder if you would raise any objection. For your stated reason for not pressing the button is not that it would be wrong for someone to suffer endlessly, but rather that it simply isn't your place to make such a decision.
So let me make the question a bit more forceful. If god sentenced anyone to eternal torture would you object? I certainly would, but happily I don't believe there is any god.
From Verity:"I wonder why you care to ask about Hell and all that."
I can't help but be simultaneously curious and intimidated when people say I deserve eternal torture. And it certainly matters to me if people teach other people that I deserve eternal torture. After all I must share this planet with them.
Hmmm, well, if I were an atheist, I would just go and do my atheist thing. Don't think I would care too much about what people thought about something I didn't believe in anyway. A quote come to mind: “The atheist says: There is no God, and I hate Him,” And, have you ever considered G.K. Chesterton's pithy statement? “If there was no God, there would be no atheists.”
You seem very certain that God (if He exists, you say) is evil because He judges. And you mention moral accountability. I must tell you I am dumbfounded. Why do you say God is evil? How do you define evil? How do you define good? How do you define morality? You say making someone suffer is wrong, but why do you say that? Who is to say it is wrong? Doesn't morality, with the absence of a divine power to dictate it, just become a matter of personal and social opinion?
You have designed a little trap for the Christians who answer this question of yours. If they say, “Nah, there isn't any Hell anyway, everything's cool, don't worry, dude,” you have reason to say, “How inconsistent you are with what the Bible says.”
But if they respond the way I did, you are terribly upset at the implication – that we believe in the righteousness and justness of God. So you pounce with another question, “You believe that people should go to Hell?! How evil you are!”
In answer to your question of “Do I think it is okay that God sends people to Hell?” Nobody in their right mind wishes anyone to Hell. No Christian gloats and says, “Oh, you're going to Hell, I'm so happy about this.” If they are doing that, believe me, they are not a Christian. No, I do not believe it is “okay for anyone to be tortured forever.” I think it is a horrifying result of sin. And you know what? Evidently God wasn't too happy about it either. Why do you think God's sinless, holy Son was sent to earth? Jesus Christ endured a savage death at the hands of evil men so mankind, you, me, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ, didn't have to. He chose to be take the brutal scourging, beating and being nailed to a cross, but most of all, the utter agony of being rejected by God. Remember your torture machine? It doesn't compare. Not a bit, separation from God is terrifying, incomprehensible agony – we cannot begin to imagine it. Jesus stormed the gates of Hell, He absorbed every last bit of punishment so we didn't have to.
I don't claim that the concept of Hell is an easy one, and a lot of people would rather not think about it at all. But I can't ignore what God has to say about it just because I don't like it. This is a hard issue, why would God doom people to Hell forever? I think the reason is one we are too apt to forget, He is holy and righteous, He cannot tolerate evil. We can't even begin to think of what evil means to God. You may talk of “moral accountability” and how your sensibilities are offended by God's judgments, but you do not have any idea of the vileness, putrefaction, and utterly base nature of sin, Nor do I. No one but God can comprehend how absolutely disgusting sin is to Him. And every human being is riddled with this loathsomeness. But we didn't have to be, we chose it, at the beginning when Adam sinned, and even now, as Romans clearly states: ”For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.” Romans 1:20-21.
However, don't think for a minute God enjoys punishing people: “Do you think, asks the Sovereign Lord, that I like to see wicked people die? Of course not! I only want to see them turn from their wicked ways and live.” Ezekiel 18:23 (NLT)
N.D. Wilson sums up the concept of Hell better than I can, here is a quote about Hell from his book, Notes From the Tilt-A-Whirl: (I know it is lengthy, but it's worth reading in full.)
“I do not pretend to know what manner of Hell waits on those who do not desire God. And it will be a question of desire, not belief. Dislike, not disbelief. . . . Heaven or Hell is about love and hate. Do you love God or do you hate Him? Is He foul in your nostrils? Do you see His art and wish your arm was long enough to reach His face? Do you spit and curse like Nietzsche? Do you wish you could trade places with the dammed thief on the cross so that you might see Him die and know that God Himself heard your challenges?
“Then Hell is for you. Hell is for you because God is kind and reserves a place for those who loathe Him to the end, an eternal exile, a joyless haven for those who would eternally add to their guilt, a place where blasphemy will be new every morning. A place less painful and less terrible than the alternative.
“Unless you change, Heaven, the Shekinah, the close presence of that burning Holiness, the presence of the creator God and the face of the exalted Word . . . would be a worse hell than Hell itself, a worse burning than any figurative (or literal) flames.
“ . . . If you displease God He will displease you. He will put you away and remove the grace you have experienced in this world.”
You may rail and rant about Hell, but you are like a man standing at the edge of a huge canyon, carved by the sins of mankind. It would be certain death to cross, but there is a paradise on the other side. Stomping and cursing he raves, “Why is this canyon here! I hate it! I can't stand it, it's evil and inhumane!” However, there is a perfectly serviceable bridge nearby, one that is available to anyone who wishes to use it, the only requirement to use it is that you must be willing to use it to cross that vast chasm. Your position is something like that. Sure, Hell is a deeply unpleasant notion, but actions have consequences, it's just how things are. However, extreme measures have been taken to insure we need not suffer the worst for our actions. I'll be frank, stop complaining about the canyon, the sin, the consequences, and accept the bridge, the solution, the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
Yikes, that was long! But how can one sum up death, judgment, Hell, forgiveness and the holy grace of God in a few sentences? Anyway, I've said my piece and then some, so I'm leaving this discussion. I truly hope this has made you think a little differently about this issue.
You seem very certain that God (if He exists, you say) is evil because He judges. And you mention moral accountability. I must tell you I am dumbfounded. Why do you say God is evil? How do you define evil? How do you define good? How do you define morality? You say making someone suffer is wrong, but why do you say that? Who is to say it is wrong? Doesn't morality, with the absence of a divine power to dictate it, just become a matter of personal and social opinion?
You have designed a little trap for the Christians who answer this question of yours. If they say, “Nah, there isn't any Hell anyway, everything's cool, don't worry, dude,” you have reason to say, “How inconsistent you are with what the Bible says.”
But if they respond the way I did, you are terribly upset at the implication – that we believe in the righteousness and justness of God. So you pounce with another question, “You believe that people should go to Hell?! How evil you are!”
In answer to your question of “Do I think it is okay that God sends people to Hell?” Nobody in their right mind wishes anyone to Hell. No Christian gloats and says, “Oh, you're going to Hell, I'm so happy about this.” If they are doing that, believe me, they are not a Christian. No, I do not believe it is “okay for anyone to be tortured forever.” I think it is a horrifying result of sin. And you know what? Evidently God wasn't too happy about it either. Why do you think God's sinless, holy Son was sent to earth? Jesus Christ endured a savage death at the hands of evil men so mankind, you, me, anyone who calls on the name of Jesus Christ, didn't have to. He chose to be take the brutal scourging, beating and being nailed to a cross, but most of all, the utter agony of being rejected by God. Remember your torture machine? It doesn't compare. Not a bit, separation from God is terrifying, incomprehensible agony – we cannot begin to imagine it. Jesus stormed the gates of Hell, He absorbed every last bit of punishment so we didn't have to.
I don't claim that the concept of Hell is an easy one, and a lot of people would rather not think about it at all. But I can't ignore what God has to say about it just because I don't like it. This is a hard issue, why would God doom people to Hell forever? I think the reason is one we are too apt to forget, He is holy and righteous, He cannot tolerate evil. We can't even begin to think of what evil means to God. You may talk of “moral accountability” and how your sensibilities are offended by God's judgments, but you do not have any idea of the vileness, putrefaction, and utterly base nature of sin, Nor do I. No one but God can comprehend how absolutely disgusting sin is to Him. And every human being is riddled with this loathsomeness. But we didn't have to be, we chose it, at the beginning when Adam sinned, and even now, as Romans clearly states: ”For His invisible attributes, that is, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen since the creation of the world, being understood through what He has made. As a result, people are without excuse. For though they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God or show gratitude. Instead, their thinking became nonsense, and their senseless minds were darkened.” Romans 1:20-21.
However, don't think for a minute God enjoys punishing people: “Do you think, asks the Sovereign Lord, that I like to see wicked people die? Of course not! I only want to see them turn from their wicked ways and live.” Ezekiel 18:23 (NLT)
N.D. Wilson sums up the concept of Hell better than I can, here is a quote about Hell from his book, Notes From the Tilt-A-Whirl: (I know it is lengthy, but it's worth reading in full.)
“I do not pretend to know what manner of Hell waits on those who do not desire God. And it will be a question of desire, not belief. Dislike, not disbelief. . . . Heaven or Hell is about love and hate. Do you love God or do you hate Him? Is He foul in your nostrils? Do you see His art and wish your arm was long enough to reach His face? Do you spit and curse like Nietzsche? Do you wish you could trade places with the dammed thief on the cross so that you might see Him die and know that God Himself heard your challenges?
“Then Hell is for you. Hell is for you because God is kind and reserves a place for those who loathe Him to the end, an eternal exile, a joyless haven for those who would eternally add to their guilt, a place where blasphemy will be new every morning. A place less painful and less terrible than the alternative.
“Unless you change, Heaven, the Shekinah, the close presence of that burning Holiness, the presence of the creator God and the face of the exalted Word . . . would be a worse hell than Hell itself, a worse burning than any figurative (or literal) flames.
“ . . . If you displease God He will displease you. He will put you away and remove the grace you have experienced in this world.”
You may rail and rant about Hell, but you are like a man standing at the edge of a huge canyon, carved by the sins of mankind. It would be certain death to cross, but there is a paradise on the other side. Stomping and cursing he raves, “Why is this canyon here! I hate it! I can't stand it, it's evil and inhumane!” However, there is a perfectly serviceable bridge nearby, one that is available to anyone who wishes to use it, the only requirement to use it is that you must be willing to use it to cross that vast chasm. Your position is something like that. Sure, Hell is a deeply unpleasant notion, but actions have consequences, it's just how things are. However, extreme measures have been taken to insure we need not suffer the worst for our actions. I'll be frank, stop complaining about the canyon, the sin, the consequences, and accept the bridge, the solution, the saving grace of Jesus Christ.
Yikes, that was long! But how can one sum up death, judgment, Hell, forgiveness and the holy grace of God in a few sentences? Anyway, I've said my piece and then some, so I'm leaving this discussion. I truly hope this has made you think a little differently about this issue.
Verity,Despite your trite assertion that you are leaving the discussion I'm quite sure you will read this.
From Verity:"And you mention moral accountability. I must tell you I am dumbfounded. Why do you say God is evil? How do you define evil? How do you define good? How do you define morality? You say making someone suffer is wrong, but why do you say that? Who is to say it is wrong?"
Morality is innate within us. Those who lack it suffer from a pathology such as psychopathy. Morality from authority is no morality at all. For example torturing someone forever instantly becomes "moral" so long as god demands it. I can already say without hesitation that I am more moral than you. If you really need god to tell you murder is wrong perhaps it is best you go on believing. It seems the world would be a bit more dangerous if you became an atheist. This is nothing to boast about.
From Verity:"You have designed a little trap for the Christians who answer this question of yours. "
My apologies for being so rude as to design a trap for those who believe I should be tortured forever.
From Verity:"But if they respond the way I did, you are terribly upset at the implication"
You mean the implication that I deserve torture? I'm sorry I don't accept my fate so graciously.
"Nobody in their right mind wishes anyone to Hell."
However you seem to be accepting that this is a necessary side affect of a just god. That's quite disturbing.
"No Christian gloats and says, “Oh, you're going to Hell, I'm so happy about this.” If they are doing that, believe me, they are not a Christian."
There is no true Scotsman, there never was.
"No, I do not believe it is “okay for anyone to be tortured forever.”"
Unless of course I refuse to submit to your god, then it becomes a just punishment.
"I'll be frank, stop complaining about the canyon, the sin, the consequences, and accept the bridge, the solution, the saving grace of Jesus Christ."
Or else I shall be tortured forever? I will never submit to this astonishing and vile ultimatum of terror, and you should be ashamed for posing it. Your god will never own me, even if he does exist.
I will thank you for making yourself crystal clear. As I am burning for all of eternity (for the grave sim of not admiring the bridge you built), you will not raise any objection to your god. Sometimes I forget that christians are nice people.
It's very rude to make religious people think about what they believe, Christopher.
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If you believe in hell do you believe it will consist of maximum torture for an infinite duration, or will it be something less severe than this?
What if the person strapped to the maximum torture device is a homosexual or an atheist? Would you press the button then?
As an atheist who faces this remote prospect I am curious how many people really believe I should burn forever.