Amazon Kindle discussion
Enough with the spam
As an author, I might be opening myself up for a bashing here, but I want to officially apologize for all the spamming you get. It's truly not representative of the independent authors I know. As a writer, I can appreciate the desire to make your work more visible, but as a reader I find unsolicited spamming in inappropriate threads to be the pinnacle of disrespect. I can't imagine how other authors think that will make you folks want to buy their books.
You may see me talk about my books (in the appropriate sections in this and various other groups) but I promise you that when I post anywhere else, it will be because I - as a reader - want to genuinely participate in the conversation.
These spammers are as infuriating to good authors as as they are to people trying to have a conversation about books. They don't just hurt their own reputation... they hurt the reputation of genuine authors that also happen to enjoy participating in conversations about books.
Anyway, I apologize for the long post. I just figured my first post in this group might as well be about this. Please don't think the spammers are accurate representatives for independent authors. They're not. They are, however, the ones you see the most... unfortunately.
Brandon wrote: "As an author, I might be opening myself up for a bashing here, but I want to officially apologize for all the spamming you get. It's truly not representative of the independent authors I know. As..."
Hear, Hear, Brandon! I too apologize for the disrespectful unsolicited spamming in inappropriate threads.
I'm afraid that may be putting a bulls eye on my back as well ... but the spamming really does need to stop. In a world of immediate information exchange, the urge to leave a footprint that links directly back to purchasing your book can be too much to turn down. In short time, sites such as Goodreads (set up as the world's largest book club) have become inundated with various sized shoeprints. The quiet areas reserved for pleasant literary discussions are now run over by loud authors screaming their wares; thus ultimately disgusting loyal readers and labeling authors as spammers. This is a stereotype that effects all of us in the business of trying to merchandise our literary creativity, while some basic etiquette may be used serve everyone universally.
1. Only post in discussion areas that are reserved specifically for promoting your work, unless invited to discuss your work elsewhere.
2. In order to write with any success, one must read constantly … thus you already have the equipment to take part in discussions outside of your own personal work. This is significant and essential for your future sales (as you will inevitably build an audience from the exchange), while also allowing you to feel the pulse of your genre of choice (by asking questions, your group friends will help you understand if there is an audience for your future storylines.)
3. Walk softly, and use the power of immediate information exchange to leave kind words behind, rather than spam (which we all end up having to clean up off of the bottom of our shoes.)
4. Most importantly, be patient and build relationships. Just because you have the tools to drop promotions everywhere your heart desires … doesn't mean you're actually promoting your work.
it seems that what these various spamming authors (both here on goodreads and elsewhere) seem to forget is that certain behaviors have a ripple effect. An author spams a forum, and I say hey, because of this, i'm not going to buy their stuff...if my friend asks for recommendations, I am likely not going to recommend their stuff because of their spamming...which in turn may influence my friends friends buying habits etcas compared to an author who does the right thing, I see their book and pick it up. I then recommend it to a friend...so on and so forth...
Elyse and Dee, I totally agree with both of you. As a writer, I don't understand how some authors think you create potential fans by annoying people. As a reader, I have to feel like an author is someone I'd love to sit down and have a conversation with. The spamming doesn't leave me with that feeling.
Dee wrote: "it seems that what these various spamming authors (both here on goodreads and elsewhere) seem to forget is that certain behaviors have a ripple effect. An author spams a forum, and I say hey, beca..."Thank you for your fair mindedness.
I have to admit, Dee, I was afraid that the spamming would ruin the reputation of authors in general.
I know for a lot of reads (not necessarily on GR, but on Amazon)...they don't want to even hear about authors because they have just been slammed so much by self-promotion. Personally, I am very picky about which ones I pick up...it typically takes a few recommendations from people I trust (here and on Amazon) before I will spend the money...because even those, its only 99 cents adds up.
Self-promotion without annoying people is very difficult. After six months of working on relationships, I've found that -- unfortunately -- the willingness to be inconsiderately visible seems to help people sell books.I still can't do it, because I've been hardwired by my parents to not deliberately annoy people, but I wish there were a more friendly way to get Goodreads readers looking at indies.
So far, the best thing is to just take part in the community ... but the Catch-22 is that I spend most of my free time writing and am not sociable. I'm a curious person and can blather about trivia and sociology endlessly, but not sociable.
I'd say so far the best indie writers I've run into are the worst promoters and vice-versa. There's a reason they have all that time for spammy behavior.
I honestly wish more decent PR people worked on percentages, like agents. If they had confidence in the writer, it would likely work and (though a reduced role from a full agent) would end a lot of this nonsense by letting the writers write and the promoters promote.
LH wrote: "I'd say so far the best indie writers I've run into are the worst promoters and vice-versa. There's a reason they have all that time for spammy behavior...."
Oh, absolutely! I still need to read your books, LH, which I will do because you started chatting away on a random thread that I was participating in, and I found your conversation amicable and intelligent.
So likeable people like yourself, I don't find a problem.
I must say that I find it irritating that the pushy people are managing to get their books out there, while a much more polite indie like this one http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/..., who wrote an IMO pretty cool novel, stays in the background and doesn't get out there. It's enough to make you want to tear your hair out!
Traveller wrote: "LH wrote: "I'd say so far the best indie writers I've run into are the worst promoters and vice-versa. There's a reason they have all that time for spammy behavior...."
Oh, absolutely! I still n..."
I shall have to check it out!
Maybe we need an indie recommendations group in which authors (all of us) aren't allowed to post at all?
Do most people recommend the authors they like to friends?
"So far, the best thing is to just take part in the community ... but the Catch-22 is that I spend most of my free time writing and am not sociable. I'm a curious person and can blather about trivia and sociology endlessly, but not sociable."Ummm ... Yeah, I'm feelin' you there. I have no idea how to balance promotion with writing ... and annoying potential readers is just not an option.
I do think your idea: an indie recommendations group in which authors (all of us) aren't allowed to post at all? ... is quite brilliant. Kudos! Do you think a couple reclusive Indies could start the group ... or would that defeat the purpose?
I recommend books/authors I like, indie or not. I am in another group where we all actively welcome newbies. I find that I simply can't do it to those who write along the lines of 'Hi, I'm xxxx and I've written...'. I understand the need to promote your own book but in the right place.
The charm of LH (and why I even befriended him), had nothing to do with his books at all, in fact, when I started interacting with him, I didn't even know he had written anything, but I enjoyed his conversation.A guy who can write posts like he was writing, deserves to have his books read!
You're welcome, LH.
The same thing happened with this Michael Herrman guy.
I read his book out of curiosity more than anything else, since I enjoyed his posts and interacting with him, and lo and behold, it was actually good! (Or so I thought, anyway) Sadly he's quite reticent.
This is why your observation about reticent authors sadly being the better ones, and therefore remaining in the background, struck a chord with me, LH.
What is one to do about the situation? Sure, you could have readers recommend indie authors, but what if nobody gets to read him because he doesn't do self promotion? ..and how is one to do self-promotion in an atmosphere where readers have started hating authors for all their aggressive self-marketing?
It's a sticky Catch-22, I fear.
Traveller, I think it boils down to patience, respect and integrity. The people who spam forums (especially inappropriate forums) don't want to wait for their books to gain momentum on their own. They also don't want to earn the respect of readers... they just want instant sales.
If they spam every forum with "BUY MY BOOK!" they might get one or two folks to click the link, but they'll lose (IMO) more readers than they'll gain.
As an author, I love this new paradigm. I love that there are no walls between me and my readers. But that means I have to earn the respect of readers and it means I have to respect that there are places where marketing is welcome... and there are places where it is not.
People who want to make this a career realize that. Those (I think) are the reticent authors you mentioned). People who want to simply sell a few books don't realize that... or they just don't care.
I hear other indie authors talk about how readers unfairly judge us, but I don't think that's true. Most of the readers I know have been absolutely wonderful... they just expect legitimate authors (indie and otherwise) to be professional and respectful.
Brandon wrote: "Traveller, I think it boils down to patience, respect and integrity. The people who spam forums (especially inappropriate forums) don't want to wait for their books to gain momentum on their own...."
This is probably wise advice. I've been a newspaper writer for years, but the fiction thing is new. You must concede, though, that it's frustrating to get one or two reviews a month when so many spammers are either spamming or cheating their way to dozens (and as is noted in another thread in the Kindle group, a lot of it seems to be cheating.)
Traveller, I think I shall suggest the non-author review group to some non-author friends on here. Perhaps one of them will start it.
Elyse wrote: ""So far, the best thing is to just take part in the community ... but the Catch-22 is that I spend most of my free time writing and am not sociable. I'm a curious person and can blather about trivi..."Yeah, I think that defeats it Elyse. We need a non-author champion. I shall look through my friend list and see if anyone's interested.
LH wrote: "You must concede, though, that it's frustrating to get one or two reviews a month when so many spammers are either spamming or cheating their way to dozens (and as is noted in another thread in the Kindle group, a lot of it seems to be cheating.)"Absolutely, LH. You're 100% correct there. I have a total of 5 reviews on one of my books, for example, and they are all legitimate reviews and they are all 4 and 5 stars.
That sounds fantastic, right? I suspect, though, it's not as great as it sounds because these spammers and cheaters have created a stigma that makes many readers assume those reviews are just me on another account.
And when I see these spammers with over 100 reviews, it does get frustrating. I definitely concede that point.
As an an indie author and publisher with 35 years experience in this industry, I've thought a lot about the ins and outs of marketing and promo. People DO deserve a fair shot for promotion with needing to pay for advertising that reaches other writers more than it doe READERS and get suckered into giveaways, bits and blasters without ANY proof that it sells ANY books.I run a small indie house with a selective list; we plan for 8-10 titles in the next few months. But here's my idea of how to skin this cat!
Are you an author with a book to promote? List your title, cover, a 2 page synopsis and your BUY link on our upcoming BUY THE BOOK page, FREE, in exchange for purchasing just one of our titles! Shoot me an email for details editorial.village.green@gmail.com Support fellow indies! Buy the Books!
Teresa wrote: "As an an indie author and publisher with 35 years experience in this industry, I've thought a lot about the ins and outs of marketing and promo. People DO deserve a fair shot for promotion with nee..."While that sounds like a great idea... I just want to make sure I'm seeing what I think I'm seeing...
Did you just add a self-promotion post to a thread that was specifically created to complain about people self-promoting in inappropriate threads?
You've got courage, I'll give you that. :)
I started a book blog in October and since then I've had the pleasure of reading many many books by indie authors and my review list is still a mile long. Only a few of them were a miss while most were a hit with me. Until October I had mostly read big published names with a few unknowns (to me) thrown in if I saw them at the library or bookstore. Now, I can't imagine not reading indie authors. I still read the big names, but now they are in the minority and indies are my majority.Here's a new magazine debuting this month that features indie authors. http://www.indtale.com/splash/ The wonderful lady running it is here on Goodreads at http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/23...
Even though I review books, I myself don't actually read reviews very often. If a book blurb sounds interesting I'll read the book whether it has reviews/stars or not. I like to judge for myself. I do look at recommendations from friends, but again it has to interest me. I rarely give a book a try, even if a friend recommends it, if the blurb doesn't pique my interest.
I'm less apt to read a book by someone spamming. Promoting in the right places is one thing because I can go to those threads and that's what is supposed to be there. Spamming where you don't belong is a big no-no and turns me off the book even if the blurb sounds interesting.
Ralph, I see there is a Discussion Topic called 'Books by members'. Is this legitimate? Can we post there even though we might have a personal thread in 'Authors' Corner' (some people have two...)?
I clicked on one promotion to see you had blocked it, but when I checked another I saw it had been left. I don't want to break the rules!!
Brandon wrote: "As an author, I might be opening myself up for a bashing here, but I want to officially apologize for all the spamming you get. It's truly not representative of the independent authors I know. As..."
I'm with Brandon. I'm a professional writer but a reader first and foremost. We are not all spammers. Most of us are really avid readers ourselves. Or we should all be.
I agree with Elizabeth and Brandon and would go one further - if an author isn't an avid reader, that's really quite telling, and wouldn't make me at all interested in reading their books.Promotion-heavy opt-in channels such as Twitter have sort of spoiled the Internet a bit, they've given people the mindset that you can just promote your stuff on any old channel. I genuinely believe most authors would be pretty aghast if they realised how much their actions were irritating fellow members.
L.H. wrote: "Elyse wrote: ""So far, the best thing is to just take part in the community ... but the Catch-22 is that I spend most of my free time writing and am not sociable. I'm a curious person and can blath..."LH is a wonderful author! He's an Indie author ya'll oughta try. Start with Quinn Checks In
Brandon wrote: "As an author, I might be opening myself up for a bashing here, but I want to officially apologize for all the spamming you get. It's truly not representative of the independent authors I know...."I agree with Brandon. I've been an independent author for six years and until about a year ago it seemed indie authors behaved but over the last year or so it has gotten ridiculous. I'm tired of it so I'm sure most other people are, too.
I come to discussion groups because I'm an avid reader and want to talk about books. I'll mention mine when it is appropriate but I'm always aware that self-promotion borders on spamming.
It's funny...I avoided joining this group for months because most of GR feels to me like a minefield strewn with annoying indie author self-promotion. I was pretty sure this particular group would be extra bad. I'm glad to see that y'all are proactive in acknowledging and curtailing the spam.
I know this may be way out of line, but the other GR spam I hate is the "for a full review of this book, come to my blog" junk.
Please tell me that's frowned upon here.
I ended up changing my friend 'question' to "if you have more friends than books read on here, please don't send me a request." it looks rude and I need to find a better way to say it. But imjust realised that 9x out of 10 the people with 11 books and 3K friends were here to promote.
See my post in the Author's Corner in direct response to this thread.
I actually don't mind authors updating me on their books. I will go see if it's something I might like and if not, I just ignore it. I have found some good books this way.
Katherine wrote: "I ended up changing my friend 'question' to "if you have more friends than books read on here, please don't send me a request." it looks rude and I need to find a better way to say it. But imjust ..."I want to steal that.
Joan wrote: "I actually don't mind authors updating me on their books. I will go see if it's something I might like and if not, I just ignore it. I have found some good books this way."I just checked. Whew. I think I'm okay....
Just joined after finishing this thread. Agree whole-heartedly re: spamming. A few bad apples, as they say. Most authors cringe at the idea of self-promotion. Most authors also cringe seeing it coming from others.Looking forward to spam-free discussions :o)
Whenever I get a request from someone with no books on their shelf, I say, "What! No books read? Let me offer them you a link to my page where I have posted plenty of books that I've read, will read, or have reviewed." cheers!
R.P. wrote: "Whenever I get a request from someone with no books on their shelf, I say, "What! No books read? Let me offer them you a link to my page where I have posted plenty of books that I've read, will rea..."Love it!
I'm always surprised at friend requests from people that I don't know from any group or thread!
I'm an Indie author and I even have difficulty self-promoting in the places where it's allowed. I'm glad it's not mandatory!I love browsing Goodreads discussions and hearing the wide variety of opinions. I hate being spammed, but I think I've accepted it as a fact of life.
You've got it, Ralph. Hands inside the cart at all times :).
Not quite on the spamming angle, but does anybody ever feel that many reviews on Goodreads and elsewhere are of such dubious quality that they may as well be classified as spam?And not only the cringeworthy self-penned efforts that jump off the page at you -what about the lazy efforts by self-styled 'reviewers' that are more of a statement about the reviewer than the book?
I started off on an enthusiastic hunt to track down all those great indie authors brought to life by Kindle. Without the option of physically browsing through a bookshop, I let myself be guided by 'reviewers' until I realised (quickly) that I would have been better off just buying the books blind since most reviewers don't bring anything of value to the table (and are often completely misleading).
Everybody's opinion is subjective, fair enough, but anybody setting themselves up as a serious reviewer should, first of all, ensure they have the breadth and depth of reading behind them that means I should take their opinion seriously.
Secondly, they should present a review which, as well as giving a clear opinion, is backed up with cogent argument - not just waffled meandering that somehow feeds their own vanity.
Of course, there are some excellent reviewers out there, and I can be pretty confident that I will get something out of any book they recommend. These reviewers are performing a genuine (and thankless) service to the rest of us, and should be recognised and valued.
On the other hand, I wish I had a 'destruct' button for every time a review starts something like, 'I really like YA/Paranormal Romance/Teenage Vampire/Fantasy but 'Heart of Darkness' by this guy Conrad isn't what I expected - two stars.'
Gerard wrote: "Not quite on the spamming angle, but does anybody ever feel that many reviews on Goodreads and elsewhere are of such dubious quality that they may as well be classified as spam?And not only the cr..."
So true! Your final paragraph sums it up perfectly.
I wanted to say hello since I just joined and to speak up about the friends vs. reviews ratio suspicion.I have many books on my shelves and even more "friends" but only a few ratings and NO reviews as a matter of my own policy which is spelled out in my bio. I don't review because I have too many friends who are authors and they write more books than I can ever read and many of them write books I don't like. I decided long ago to keep my opinions to myself other than my annual top 10 list which automatically get 5 stars. If my writer friends ask for my opinion of their book, I give it to them privately.
BUT I do read others' reviews and I often friend those whose reviews I enjoy or whose tastes are similar to my own. I almost always friend reviewers who send me personal messages. I only turn down friend requests where the requester has no books or only their own books on their shelves. Then, yeah, I agree, why sign up for spam? I'm sick of it, too. Cheers!
I rarely comment on threads but feel the need to do so here. I adore GoodReads, the opportunity to discover new books and to chat with readers and bloggers who've reviewed my works. But I'm tired of receiving spam from other authors. I'm a reader first, and cherish having a place to celebrate my love of literature.
I try to offer helpful advice to other writers on Twitter, FB, my blog--everywhere but GR--because this is a site for readers (including those readers who craft their love into a career as a storyteller). If folks on this site are interested in a promotion, they'll seek it out. If you're an author thinking of sending DM with a "buy my book" plea, stop now. If you're spamming the feeds of your "friends", stop now.
Lastly, if you're a struggling writer just starting out, please don't try to friend me here. I wish you all the best with your career but reserve my GR friendships for those who, like me, enjoy contemporary and literary fiction. I hope you understand. xo
Claire wrote: "I wanted to say hello since I just joined and to speak up about the friends vs. reviews ratio suspicion.I have many books on my shelves and even more "friends" but only a few ratings and NO revie..."
Claire wrote: "I wanted to say hello since I just joined and to speak up about the friends vs. reviews ratio suspicion.
I have many books on my shelves and even more "friends" but only a few ratings and NO revie..."
Claire, kudos for avoiding the trap of providing review for author friends. If they are truly friends, they'll understand why you can offer objectivity with regard to their works.
Gerard wrote: "Not quite on the spamming angle, but does anybody ever feel that many reviews on Goodreads and elsewhere are of such dubious quality that they may as well be classified as spam?And not only the cr..."
Gerald, there's a flip side to the coin. Those of us who take pride in our work go through the painstaking process of sending queries to the proper reviewers to ensure an objective review. The effort doesn't land us on the top of the Amazon lists nor turn our books into overnight sensations. It does, slowly and predictably, produce the sort of loyal readership that ensures a working novelist goes on working.
R.P. wrote: "Whenever I get a request from someone with no books on their shelf, I say, "What! No books read? Let me offer them you a link to my page where I have posted plenty of books that I've read, will rea..."Those friend requests make me roll my eyes. No books read or reviewed, um, why are you on GoodReads in the first place?
Gerard wrote: "Not quite on the spamming angle, but does anybody ever feel that many reviews on Goodreads and elsewhere are of such dubious quality that they may as well be classified as spam?And not only the cr..."
I agree no-one should be setting themselves up as a 'professional reviewer' unless they know what they're doing, but isn't it pretty much an unwritten rule that anyone can join goodreads and review books with their honest, utterly subjective opinion?
We all know we've got to treat reviews with some skepticism (let's face it, even the 'professional's' can get it wrong).
I'll review books with my honest opinion, but I don't want to feel like I'm being judged for the quality of my review - it can be simply my opinion, can't it?
I think the trouble with reviews is that sometimes they do look really dodgy. I saw a new book on Amazon the other day, the author spammed the Zon forums saying this is my new book, blag blah... and I mean ALL the forums. He had 2 5 star reviews and 4 star in a week... one of which had the same surname...Yes they are opinion... which can be both good and bad. I have seen reviews which have, say, reviewed erotica and complained it had sex in it... well hmm yes it would.
A decent review should say what is good, if any thing, and what is bad, if anything BUT it is the reviewers opinion and one man's meat is another's poison as it were.
Authors are permitted to create ONE topic in the Author's Corner section that promotes themselves as authors. This is where you can interact with readers, let them know about new releases, etc.
Authors may also list their books in the applicable "Sales an Cheap Books" threads. (IE Free, 99cents, 2.99 or less, etc.)
Authors are not allowed to promo their books outside of these areas unless a reader is specifically asking for the type of book you write or you're speaking with a reviewer in the Reviewer's Corner.
This group is not here for authors to promote themselves. This group is primarily geared toward readers. Any author who joins this group just to spam their books will be removed. I've already removed two authors who joined less than a week ago and had already made half a dozen spam posts and nothing else.