THE WORLD WAR TWO GROUP discussion

Members can talk about news and events covering aspects of WW2.

I've moved these comments into this new thread:

Spitfires Found

Will:

I found these articles the other evening. Thought they might be of interest!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknew...

http://www.foxnews.com/scitech/2012/0...

Carl:

pretty cool if true. seems like every
few years there's a rumor of a trove of WW2
aircraft found then it doesn't pan out.
but hope for the best.

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "I've moved these comments into this new thread:

Spitfires Found

Will:

I found these articles the other evening. Thought they might be of interest!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews..."

I read about this last week....great news! I will have to dust off my copy of "The Spitfire Story" by Alfred Price, which has been sitting on my bookshelf, unread,
for far too long.

Hi Steve,

You have the same problem as most of us I suspect! I need to read this one:

by Leo McKinstry

This week in history 25th - 27th April:

1945: Russians and Americans link at Elbe

Russian and American troops have joined hands at the River Elbe in Germany, bringing the end of the war a step closer.

Statements have been released simultaneously in London, Moscow and Washington this evening reaffirming the determination of the three Allied powers to complete the destruction of the Third Reich.

According to a statement issued by Downing Street, the commanders of a United States division and of a Russian Guards division met at Torgau, south of Berlin on 26 April at 1600 hours local time.

In fact the first contact was made between patrols on 25 April when a first lieutenant and three men of an intelligence and reconnaissance platoon of the US division met forward elements of the Russian Guards division.

First Lieutenant Albert Kotzebue of the 3rd Battalion, 273rd Infantry, 69th Infantry Division took his men in a boat across the Elbe to be greeted by Lt Col Alexander Gardiev, Commander of the 175th Rifle Regiment of the 58th Guards Division, 34th Corps.

They made arrangements for the formal handshake in front of photographers at Torgau the following day.

By joining forces at Elbe, the American and Soviet troops have successfully cut the Germany army in two.

However, The Times correspondent warns of the of the possibility of "a protracted period of mountain warfare".

The American and Russian military leaders have paid tribute to their troops. In Moscow 324 guns fired a 24 salvo in honour of "victory of the freedom-loving peoples over Germany".

General Omar Bradley, commander of the US 12th Army Group, praised the Soviet troops for their determination in forcing the Germans to abandon Russia and push them back to the Elbe River.

He went on to pay tribute to the American forces: "In 10 months you have advanced 1,120km (696 miles) from the invasion beaches. All this has been attained thanks to your courage, your spirit and initiative and thanks to your comrades who died in order to achieve this."

The British Prime Minister, Winston Churchill, said: "We meet in true and victorious comradeship and with inflexible resolve to fulfil our purpose and our duty. Let all march forward upon the foe."

President Harry S. Truman welcomed the news: "This is not the hour of final victory in Europe, but the hour draws near, the hour for which all the American people, all the British people and all the Soviet people have toiled and prayed so long."

Marshal Joseph Stalin spoke of the war still ahead: "Our task and our duty are to complete the destruction of the enemy to force him to lay down his arms and surrender unconditionally.

"The Red Army will fulfil to the end this task and this duty to our people and to all freedom-loving peoples."

Today in World War II History

Saturday, April 28, 2012

1945 - Benito Mussolini and his mistress Clara Petacci were executed by Italian partisans as they attempted to flee the country.

Wow--that Italian campaign was a brutal meat- grinder for the Allies and a brilliant defensive stratagy by FieldMarschall Kesselring& the Wehrmact--eh? What a slug in the mud that turned out to be.That was some tough sledding and it also can be some tough reading also..That Kesselring was a pretty versitile individual..any good recommends. on the FieldMarschal?

Hi Wade,

I've moved your request for a good book on Kesselring to this thread, hopefully you will get some replies and suggestions:

http://www.goodreads.com/topic/show/8...

This Month in World War II History

MAY

1940:
May 10, 1940 - Nazis invade France, Belgium, Luxembourg and the Netherlands.

Winston Churchill becomes British Prime Minister


1941:
May 15, 1941 - Operation Brevity begins (the British counter-attack in Egypt).

May 24, 1941 - Sinking of the British ship Hood by the Bismarck.

May 27, 1941 - Sinking of the Bismarck by the British Navy.

1942:
German summer offensive begins in the Crimea and against the Gazala Line.

May 6, 1942 - Surrender of all US forces on Philippines

1943:
May 13, 1943 - German and Italian troops surrender in North Africa.

1944:
May 12, 1944 - Germans surrender in the Crimea.

May 25, 1944 - Germans retreat from Anzio

1945:
May 8: VE Day - Victory in Europe. Germany surrenders to the Red Army in Berlin.

Big event due soon in the UK:

http://www.bombercommand.com/

in case any of you all are in the neighborhood:

Saturday, May 19, 2012
0900 am - 1800 pm

70th Anniversary Hondo Army Airfield Fly-in

South Texas Regional Airport, Hondo, TX, USA

70th Anniversary of Hondo Army Airfield Fly-in featuring:

B-17 Texas Raiders

Devil Dog B-25 (Marines)

several P-51s (Miss Marilyn, Happy Jack's,
Glamorous Glennis (formerly owned by Chuck Yeager)

P-63 King Cobra (only F model in the world)

DH-82 Tiger Moth
T-6,
P-40,
O-1 Birddog and many more.

Sponsored by Tex Hill Wing CAF / City of Hondo,TX
/ EAA Ch. 35. $5.00 admission per person.
Free admission for the first 50 pilots that fly-in!

Thanks for that information Carl, if I was in the area I'd be there with bells on but sadly I'm stuck in Australia :(

Dude..catch one of those famous Austraillian waves and surf on over to tha good old US of A....hell, you'all.can be in the great state of Texas in no time, flat!

Worried about the sharks!

:)

Fair enough.

well i did say, IF you're in the neighborhood.


Wade wrote: "Fair enough."

For those who may be interested I have received this request below from Mary about selling her late husbands books:

If interested parties would contact me at bohewitt@yahoo.com, I would greatly appreciate it. I also know my late husband would appreciate his books going to good homes.

Thank you for your assistance.

Mary
Bo Hewitt's widow

This is the members page if you want to check out his books or you could contact Mary on the e-mail address above:

http://www.goodreads.com/user/show/18...

Folks I may be off line for a few days as I am going away and I am unsure of Internet access so I hope you all have fun and don't destroy the place while I'm gone :)

I will try and catch up with the posts & threads if I can otherwise I will be back on Monday afternoon.

I'll try, lots of good book shops and cafes in Melbourne :)

Enjoy Rick

...ok i heard the car door slam, rick's gone.
i say we rearrange all his tiger tank books...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Folks I may be off line for a few days as I am going away and I am unsure of Internet access so I hope you all have fun and don't destroy the place while I'm gone :)

.."

carl wrote: "...ok i heard the car door slam, rick's gone.
i say we rearrange all his tiger tank books...

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Folks I may be off line for a few days as I am going away and I am unsure of Int..."

And drink his wine - only kidding Rick I know it's locked in the Tiger on the drive :)

Just checking up on you guys, the wine cellar is locked and alarmed and I've taken the starter motor for the Tiger :)

For the Australians here it's the anniversary of D-Day, 6th of June 1944. For those on the other side of the globe it's the time the young American, Canadian and British parartroopers were already on enemy soil fighting to liberate France.

Well I'm sure you will do a good job :)

I have not been able to find any news on the forthcoming release date for David Glantz's final volume in the Stalingrad Trilogy; Endgame in Stalingrad: The Victorious Soviet Counteroffensive and Death of German Sixth Army except possible in April 2013. Has anyone else heard anything different?

& by David M. Glantz

Here is some information from David Glantz about his quest to write the definitive history about the battle of Stalingrad:

A retired U.S. Army colonel fluent in Russian, David M. Glantz writes data-rich tomes that synthesize his research in the recently opened Soviet archives. His goal: to debunk long-standing myths with what he calls "ground truth." His latest epics, To the Gates of Stalingrad and Armageddon in Stalingrad (both published in 2009, with a third volume due next year), recast history's biggest battle in a new light. For example, he and coauthor Jonathan M. House are the first historians to use archival material from the brutal Soviet secret police force, the NKVD, which was charged with maintaining discipline in the Red Army. "Its documents are surprisingly candid about declining morale, the amount of censorship, numbers of deserters, and so on," Glantz says, "a human dimension of the battle often speculated upon but never before documented."


What do you mean by ground truth?
I mean examining the records of both sides to finally strip away the myths and begin to restore reality. You can't reach judgments regarding political, diplomatic, economic, or social factors in the war as a whole unless you have reached sound decisions regarding how the war was conducted, to what end it was conducted, and so forth. Historians today are focused not on operational but social issues. But it all sits on the structure of military reality.

Why choose Stalingrad?
There have been hundreds of books on the battle, dating back to the early 1950s. Many early ones were German memoirs, or about specific Germans. In the 1980s and 1990s, many were essentially derived from those sources plus a narrow base of Soviet sources, the predominant one being memoirs by Vasily Chuikov, who headed the Soviet Sixty-second Army; those are quite accurate and very good. But over time, all these books incorporated the same basic conclusions about the campaign as a whole and the battle for the city. And many of those conclusions are simply wrong.

For example?
One common perception is this: unlike in Barbarossa in 1941, where the Soviet army resisted the Wehrmacht and took immense casualties, during Blau in 1942 Stalin very quickly withdraws his forces and decides to trade space for time; once he gets back to a more defensible line, he launches a counteroffensive. That's flat wrong. From Blau's very beginning, Stalin's orders are to stand and fight. His strategy throughout the war is to attack everywhere at every time, in the belief that somewhere someone will break.

Does the Red Army attack on the road to Stalingrad?
Despite widespread belief otherwise, there's some horrendous fighting, generally caused by Soviet forces in counterattacks, counterstrokes, and even counteroffensives. The most important comes in July along the Germans' northern flank. Stalin commits a tank army as well as other new formations that didn't exist in 1941. There are major tank battles, 500 to 1,000 Soviet tanks.

What do these achieve?
In the first operations they're very poorly led, and so don't achieve that much—except that they bleed the Germans. The same thing happens at the end of July: two new Soviet tank armies appear at the bend of the Don River and launch counterattacks in support of the new Sixty-second Army. This huge tank battle goes on for nearly three weeks, and throws the German plan right out the window.

Why?
The number of Germans in the attacking infantry force is far smaller than in 1941, and many of the infantry units trailing in the panzers' wake are Romanians and Italians, who aren't really interested in dying for the führer. So in 1942, although Russian armies are encircled and their fighting ability destroyed, the troops get out and either go to ground or rejoin the Red Army later.

What happens to the German plan?
As Sixth Army advances, it has to protect its flanks, especially along the Don. So an ever-smaller part of the army is committed forward. After they clear the bend in the Don, they mount an offensive to seize the city. This is probably the most important point in the Battle of Stalingrad. They plan to seize the city by crossing the Don and advancing to the Volga in two pincers headed by panzer corps: get them into Stalingrad from the north and south, and seize it without a fight.

What stops them?
As soon as they launch their attacks, the Soviets begin counterattacks. They're often suicidal and futile, but totally preoccupy the northern panzer corps and prevent it from turning any forces south toward the city. That leaves three German divisions in hedgehogs stretched along a 40-kilometer road. They never get into the factory district in the north end of the city, which becomes the site of the last battles. The southern pincer does what it is supposed to. But the Soviet reaction north of the city thwarts [Sixth Army commander Friedrich] Paulus's plan.

Where does that leave him?
With one infantry corps—the only force he has to reduce the city. It has three infantry divisions in it, and a few other supporting groups—only one-third of Sixth Army. Since he can't get into Stalingrad with his armor, he goes in from the west on foot—block by block, street by street. He does try to lead attacks with armor, until each of those panzer divisions is worn out. By the time he's in the center city and trying to get into the north, German armor is gone and he's in a slug match. By October 1942, his regiments are battalions, divisions are regiments, and Sixth Army is probably a corps.

What is the Soviet strategy?
To feed just enough troops into the city to keep it from falling. They are sacrificial lambs. Divisions that come in with 10,000 men have 500 the next day. Many divisions are fragments. The 13th Guards, always described as an elite force, was destroyed two months before; they're sent in half-trained and one-third equipped. The 284th Rifle Division, popularized in the film Enemy at the Gates—only one of its three regiments has rifles. It's like Muhammad Ali's rope-a-dope. It was so brutal that Stavka, the Soviet high command, forbade A. I. Eremenko, Stalingrad front commander, and his commissar, Nikita Khrushchev, from crossing the river into the city: Stavka was afraid they'd develop an affinity with the poor troops dying there and decide to abandon it.

How do the Germans react?
For them it becomes a meat grinder. Every division they send in is weakened, so they have to pull new ones off the flanks. According to Sixth Army's loss figures, most divisions go in rated combat-ready. Within a week, they're rated either as weak or exhausted. The attrition rate is phenomenal. The Luftwaffe's rubbling of the city only exacerbates things. In early November, they run out of divisions. It's a true war of attrition.

How do they maintain the offensive?
They take all the engineer battalions out of Army Group B, which makes the final attack on November 11. So they have nobody to defend the Don, except Italians and Romanians. Hungarians are already in the line. Army Group B's left flank is an allied army group. The Soviets understand that weakness from their intelligence, and that's where they launch their counteroffensive.

What kind of leader was Stalin?
The myth is that Stalin micromanaged the first year, then at about the time of Stalingrad began deferring to his commanders, and thereafter the commanders fought the war under his general guidance. That's wrong. He was hands-on throughout. In 1941, his stubbornness and insistence on fighting back cost him a lot, but also ensured that Hitler's key assumption—that the Red Army would dissolve once it was smashed—didn't happen. By 1942, after Leningrad and Moscow, Stalin and Marshal Georgi Zhukov think alike. They understand that even if you have to ruthlessly expend manpower, resistance will wear down a numerically weaker opponent. That tactic cost probably 14 million military dead—the price of defeating a more experienced, battle-worthy, savvy Wehrmacht.

This article originally appeared in the May/June 2010 issue of World War II.

Rick thanks this is a very interesting article.

My pleasure Geevee :)

Thanks Rick - I really have to read more of Glanz' books

This Month in World War II History

JUNE

1940:
June 4, 1940: Dunkirk rescue is over. The Royal Navy sent 220 light war ships and 650 other vessels under a hail of bombs and artillery fire.

June 14, 1940:1940: German troops enter Paris

1941:
June 22, 1941: Hitler invades the Soviet Union – ‘Operation Barbarossa’commences.

1942:
June 7, 1942: Japanese beaten in Battle of Midway

June 21, 1942: Rommel captures Tobruk.

1944:
June 5, 1944: Celebrations as Rome is liberated.

June 6, 1944: D-Day marks start of Europe invasion

June 13, 1944: First V-bombs launched against Britain

June 30, 1944: Siege of Imphal lifted in Burma.

1945:
June 21, 1945: 1945: US troops take Okinawa.

June 28, 1945: US troops liberate Philippines.

Honor Flight flies WW2 veterans to Washington DC
for free to see the new monument and provide some
'getting around' assistance. The flights
leave from various cities in the USA throughout
the year:

http://www.honorflight.org/about/

Bomber Command Memorial unveiled by The Queen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18600871

Two great events Carl & Geevee, thanks for the posts.

Geevee wrote: "Bomber Command Memorial unveiled by The Queen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18600871"

Great news and long overdue!

Now if they could also issue a special campaign medal for the surviving members of RAF Bomber Command and posthumously to the ones who have passed, it would go some way to atone for the travesty perpetrated on these brave aircrews when they were denied a campaign medal after the war due to the controversy concerning area bombing of German cities.

Very true Steve!

Geevee wrote: "Bomber Command Memorial unveiled by The Queen:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-18600871"

good show!

I got today's Kindle Book Review this morning and learned that my WW2 novel, FALL EAGLE ONE(http://amzn.to/ITGoGk) is a Semifinalist in their Best Indie Books of 2012 contest in the Mystery/Thriller category. Finalists will be announced in September. I was somewhat overwhelmed.
Warren Bell

Good news Warren, all the best for September then.

This Month in World War II History

JULY

1940:
July 1, 1940 - German U-boats attack merchant ships in the Atlantic.

July 5, 1940 - French Vichy government breaks off relations with Britain.

July 10, 1940 - Battle of Britain begins.

July 23, 1940 - Soviets take Lithuania, Latvia and Estonia.

1941:
July 3, 1941 - Stalin calls for a scorched earth policy.

July 10, 1941 - Germans cross the River Dnieper in the Ukraine.

July 12, 1941 - Mutual Assistance agreement between British and Soviets.

July 14, 1941 - British occupy Syria.

July 26, 1941 - Roosevelt freezes Japanese assets in United States and suspends relations.

July 31, 1941 - Göring instructs Heydrich to prepare for the Final Solution.

1942:
July 1-30 - First Battle of El Alamein.

July 3, 1942 - Germans take Sevastopol.

July 5, 1942 - Soviet resistance in the Crimea ends.

July 9, 1942 - Germans begin a drive toward Stalingrad in the USSR.

July 22, 1942 - First deportations from the Warsaw Ghetto to concentration camps; Treblinka extermination camp opened.

1943:
July 5, 1943 - Germans begin their last offensive against Kursk.

July 9/10 - Allies land in Sicily.

July 19, 1943 - Allies bomb Rome.

July 22, 1943 - Americans capture Palermo, Sicily.

July 24, 1943 - British bombing raid on Hamburg.

July 25/26 - Mussolini arrested and the Italian Fascist government falls; Marshal Pietro Badoglio takes over and negotiates with Allies.

July 27/28 - Allied air raid causes a firestorm in Hamburg.

1944:
July 3, 1944 - 'Battle of the Hedgerows' in Normandy; Soviets capture Minsk.

July 9, 1944 - British and Canadian troops capture Caen, France.

July 18, 1944 - U.S. troops reach St. Lô, France.

July 20, 1944 - Assassination attempt by German Army officers against Hitler fails.

July 24, 1944 - Soviet troops liberate first concentration camp at Majdanek.

July 25-30 - Operation Cobra (U.S. troops break out west of St. Lô).

July 28, 1944 - Soviet troops take Brest-Litovsk. U.S. troops take Coutances.

1945:
July 1, 1945 - American, British, and French troops move into Berlin.

July 16, 1945 - First U.S. atomic bomb test; Potsdam Conference begins.

July 26, 1945 - Atlee succeeds Churchill as British Prime Minister.

Here is a link to a 97 year old Nazi how has been caught in Hungary. He topped Simon Wiesenthals list of Nazis.

http://www.aljazeera.com/news/europe/...

Interesting story Michael, thanks for the link.

a JU-52 in a travel ad definitely caught my
attention. the CEO of a German luggage
company Rimowa is flying a JU-52 on a tour
of the USA after crossing the atlantic.
hold your mouse over the transatlatic
line at this link and a video of the flying plane is
displayed.

http://www.rimowa.de/main/langselect

Great link, thanks Carl, nice old plane the Ju-52 eh!

'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Great link, thanks Carl, nice old plane the Ju-52 eh!"

yes they are, and quite cozy on the inside. i got to
make a jump from one once. well, it was still
on the ground, but nevertheless.

carl wrote: "'Aussie Rick' wrote: "Great link, thanks Carl, nice old plane the Ju-52 eh!"

yes they are, and quite cozy on the inside. i got to
make a jump from one once. well, it was still
on the ground, but ..."

Carl that's the best way if you ask me :)

Nice, well done Carl! :-)

Nice Carl, makes the PLF easy. As a pilot, I have to agree...the only time to jump out of an airplane is when parked on the ground. Crazy people jump out while in the air.

OOOOO--that Ju52--I LOVE that airplane.. tri-motor...how about the Luftwaffe paint scheme--yellow tipped engine, wing and tail assembly---that was & is outstanding.